Librarium Online Forums banner
1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
LO's Resident Time Lord
Joined
·
3,270 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hiya:

So as though I don't have enough to build and paint, I've gotten this insane idea that I might buy some warmachine models in the near future.

I've heard three things:

1) It doesn't much matter which faction you go with, as you can pretty much do anything with any faction. If this is true, is it pure fluff/models that distinguishes them?

2) I'm told "It's all about the warcaster." How does the choice of warcaster affect the army in the cases of, say, Cygnar and the Protectorate, both factions I'm considering?

3) Don't bother building an all-merc army. They never work as well as factions. Is this true?
 

·
Forward Kommander
Joined
·
1,005 Posts
Woho, another convert!

Hiya:

So as though I don't have enough to build and paint, I've gotten this insane idea that I might buy some warmachine models in the near future.
Insane? no, financially challenging ;)

1) It doesn't much matter which faction you go with, as you can pretty much do anything with any faction. If this is true, is it pure fluff/models that distinguishes them?
Not true. There are certin things that can be replicated from faction to faction, but there are some definite lines that each side takes. (ie Khador is a slow, but tough army, while Cryx has a lot of speed, but cardboard armour ect.)

2) I'm told "It's all about the warcaster." How does the choice of warcaster affect the army in the cases of, say, Cygnar and the Protectorate, both factions I'm considering?
A change of a caster affects your 'jacks, and infantry (depending on what spells they have). So a change of casters will pretty much affect your whole army in many different ways, and will also change your game plan as the effects and special rules of each caster varies.

3) Don't bother building an all-merc army. They never work as well as factions. Is this true?
Can't talk too much on this one as I haven't seen too many all merc lists. However, with the release of Pirates, I think that the consensus you will get is that mercs can be a force in their own right.
 

·
LO's Resident Time Lord
Joined
·
3,270 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Not true. There are certin things that can be replicated from faction to faction, but there are some definite lines that each side takes. (ie Khador is a slow, but tough army, while Cryx has a lot of speed, but cardboard armour ect.)
And Cygnar shoots a lot. What is the Protectorate's primary attribute? How do these factions compare to 40K? Am I right in thinking Cygnar = Tau/Dark Angels/Necrons, Cryx = nids/Dark Eldar, Khador = zilla nids? If so, what are the protectorate like? Their love for fire suggests Sisters of Battle, but that may be the fluff pushing me that way, too. I ask because I have a vague idea how the abovementioned 40k armies are supposed to be configured, and it gives me an idea what I'll be facing/building.

A change of a caster affects your 'jacks, and infantry (depending on what spells they have). So a change of casters will pretty much affect your whole army in many different ways, and will also change your game plan as the effects and special rules of each caster varies.
It looks like Stryker goes well with Cygnar's CC-heavy troops, such as stormblades, while Haley is more of a general-purpose support unit. Caine looks like a shoot-em-up fellow who would back, say, gun mages well. I imagine an army with Haley would have a lot of trenchers. Am I oversimplifying? How bout the Protectorate? Anyone know?
 

·
The Pacifist Wargamer
Joined
·
1,512 Posts
If Khador is Nidzilla, then the Protectorate is more like 'proper' Tyranids. Lots of little ones with a few big ones in the mix. Protectorate tactics are a mix of buffs and denial, while getting tons of ordinarily useless, but now buffed-up Troops into the fray. They're not as 'Jack-centric as the others, except for the Devout, which is for caster defense.
 

·
resident iconoclast
Joined
·
791 Posts
Hiya:
So as though I don't have enough to build and paint, I've gotten this insane idea that I might buy some warmachine models in the near future.
Good for you. It's a game well worth trying, and it's easy to assemble a small, cheap 500 point army to test it out with.

I've heard three things:

1) It doesn't much matter which faction you go with, as you can pretty much do anything with any faction. If this is true, is it pure fluff/models that distinguishes them?
Er, no. Not really. Each has a very distinct set of tactics, options, strengths and weaknesses. Are they all good? Yeah, basically. No faction has a distinct advantage--especially in casual play--against any of the others. Are they the same? No, not really.

For example, if you play Khador, you can field an army composed entirely of burly men in steam-powered armour. No other faction really has a unit comparable to the Men'o'war. There are other tough infantry, but the Men'o'war are in a class of their own.

With Cygnar, you can play a line of riflemen who can mow down just about anything in a hail of lead. No other faction really puts out a decent gunline. Other factions have some ranged units, but nobody does guns like Cygnar.

They also shoot lightning, which nets them some definite style points. No one else shoots lightning. ;)

A Cryx army can consist of your caster, a handful of undead murder machines (read: Bane Thralls and Bane Knights) and a swarm of bonejacks, which are a lot like skeletal mastiffs (with guns!) that allow your caster to lob spells just about anywhere on the board reliably. No other army has an arcnode 'jack that compares to the bonejacks.

A Menoth army is probably the hardest to characterize. If they had a gimmick, it'd be the horde of cheap infantry, most notably the unkillable Zealots and their horrendously powerful Firebombs. They're a lot like Cygnar and Khador, but with worse equipment and better buffs. They rely on enhancement spells and abilities to be effective--but, of course, stacking enhancements often yields a result that is better than any other faction could really hope to achieve.

They also have this stack of really annoying denial abilities, so it's not too hard to keep the important guys alive.


2) I'm told "It's all about the warcaster." How does the choice of warcaster affect the army in the cases of, say, Cygnar and the Protectorate, both factions I'm considering?
Definitely true. Most Warcasters are about as important to your army's performance as the rest of the army combined. Some more, some less, but picking a Warcaster will do more to define how your army plays than any other single choice you'll make--honestly, even including faction.

Without going into details about specific warcasters (which I can do, if you want) that's about as much as I can say on that.

3) Don't bother building an all-merc army. They never work as well as factions. Is this true?
Yeah, basically. They're just worse than other armies. They're cool, they can be fun, and they aren't terrible, but they're not really designed to be competitive in their own right and they're not. My friend holds the distinction of having the second mercenary medal ever handed out at a public tournament. He's probably one of the better and more dedicated merc players around, and even he says that they're just not competitive. He has never once beaten me with an all merc force. Neither has anyone else. Play them if you want, but only if you're prepared to lose a lot.
 

·
LO's Resident Time Lord
Joined
·
3,270 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Without going into details about specific warcasters (which I can do, if you want) that's about as much as I can say on that.
I got a better idea. I've been reading a lot of tacticae, including the Battle College, so let me take a stab at it first, at least from a general perspective.

Stryker: Decent enough overall, but clearly geared toward Sword Guardians and anything else with a CC bent. Strategy applies to both Prime and Epic variants.

Caine: The opposite, really. He's good at boosting ranged weapons, particularly on infantry. You'll want to have a unit of long gunners, trenchers, or (with the Epic variant) gun mages. Junior Warcaster is required to give focus to 'jacks, as Caine doesn't have enough to go around. Prime version is fragile, Epic is a little heartier.

Haley: All-around helpful. She's good no matter whether you have shooty or assaulty, 'jacks or infantry. Junior Warcaster is a must to cast Arcane Shield on her, otherwise she's a bit vulnerable. Epic version isn't THAT much more impressive than the "vanilla."

Darius: The 'jacks' best friend. His halfjacks will put arms back on your metal monstrosities as fast as your enemies can blow them off, and if they're not needed for that, you can turn them into mines to mess with your opponent's head. Darius himself offers lots of 'jack-boosting spells (such as "Full Throttle"). Take this guy if you like 'jacks.

Brisbane: Known for being able to break down walls (hence his nickname), but that's only useful if the mission requires it. Otherwise, Brisbane does for infantry what Darius does for 'jacks.


So basically, I'm gonna need "junior" to balance stuff out a lot if I have a lot of warjacks, unless I take Darius, and even then, I'm guessing I'd be a fool not to take at least one or two infantry units, so maybe I should leave him at home until I hit 750 or 1,000 points, use him as a backup. Then again, Epic Caine looks good. I'm thinking of, after I buy the box set, swapping Stryker for Haley, then later going for either Epic Caine(guns guns guns!) or Darius('jack it up!) as a second 'caster. Thoughts?
 

·
resident iconoclast
Joined
·
791 Posts
I got a better idea. I've been reading a lot of tacticae, including the Battle College, so let me take a stab at it first, at least from a general perspective.
Fair enough. From reading it, actually, it looks like you've got a pretty good grasp on things. Let me just make a couple corrections. ;)

Stryker: Decent enough overall, but clearly geared toward Stormblades and anything else with a CC bent. Strategy applies to the Epic varient. The best strategy for the regular varient is to leave him at home. He's kinda like Haley, but worse.
Caine: The opposite, really. He's good at boosting ranged weapons, particularly on infantry. You'll want to have a unit of long gunners, trenchers, or (with either varient, really) gun mages. Junior Warcaster is required to never give focus to 'jacks, and Caine doesn't have enough to go around, either. Prime version is fragile, Epic is a little heartier. Both can provide some infantry support, but neither is at its best unless it's running around wrecking faces on its own. Caine is Cygnar's biggest face wrecker. Holding him back in a support role is just wasting his potential
Haley: All-around helpful and practically made of pure shiny awesomeness. She's good no matter whether you have shooty or assaulty, 'jacks or infantry. Junior Warcaster is a must to cast Arcane Shield anything, really, because she's almost too easy to keep alive, between Temporal Barrier, Trencher Smoke, and her funny spear. Epic version isn't THAT much more impressive than the "vanilla." In fact, it's probably worse. Not a lot, but it's hard to make up for the loss of TB. Also, copying spells is just not as good as countering them.
Darius: The 'jacks' best friend--and he has Full Throttle!. His halfjacks will put arms back on your metal monstrosities as fast as your enemies can blow them off, and if they're not needed for that, you can turn them into mines to mess with your opponent's head, and there's Full Throttle! Darius himself offers lots of 'jack-boosting spells (such as "Full Throttle"). Take this guy if you like 'jacks. Also, his one spell--I think it's called Fortify?--is practically a must. It prevents all his important stuff from being knocked down or pushed around for a big chunk of the game. And did I mention Full Throttle? It's pretty much awesome.
Brisbane: Known for being able to break down walls (hence his nickname), but that's only useful if the mission requires it. Otherwise, Brisbane doesn't really do that much of anything. He's got some kinda funny buffs, but, like Stryker, he's sort of like Haley but worse. Don't bother.
So basically, I'm gonna need "junior" in every game, but never running a warjack. Ever. I'm guessing I'd be a fool not to take at least one or two infantry units, but you should never seriously consider leaving the JWC at home. Then again, Epic Caine looks good. I'm thinking of, after I buy the box set, swapping Stryker for Haley, the Ironclad for a Centurion, and then getting rid of that stupid Charger entirely so that you're never accidentally tempted to actually use it, then later going for either Epic Caine (guns guns guns!) or Darius('jack it up!) as a second 'caster. Thoughts?

As for second casters, I certainly like Caine. I used the regular Caine a lot. There are a lot of things about normal Caine that I like better than with Epic Caine, but, then, Epic Caine has a lot of neat stuff, too. Both are certainly worth trying.

Darius is definitely more of a 500 point caster. It's not that he isn't good in 1000 points, it's just that, as a large-game 'jack caster, you might as well be playing Nemo.

In fact, Nemo probably ought to be your second caster in most games. With another caster (and two Journeymen, of course) on the table, he routinely has 10 focus. An Overcharged, Accelerated Centurion is a massive threat. He can put out three Chain Lightnings a turn. He's just great as a second caster, and I highly recommend giving him a shot. Give him a pair of Cents, or a Cent and an Ironclad, and a Lancer. He's fantastic.
 

·
Drills baby.
Joined
·
6,481 Posts
Remember, Canew, that Left of West is the ultra-competetive player here. All his opinions are based on his years of only playing in an ultra-competetive enviroment so if that's not what you are looking for...

I'm in a rush now so I will expand on this post later on.
 

·
The Pacifist Wargamer
Joined
·
1,512 Posts
Remember, Canew, that Left of West is the ultra-competetive player here.
Also, he hates the game. :p

I say, go with Nemo as your primary caster, then paint him red and white and start calling him Colonel Harland Sanders.

Hmm...There's a list...

Nemo
Thunderhead
Stormsmiths
Trenchers
Bucket of Original Recipe
 

·
resident iconoclast
Joined
·
791 Posts
Hah! Yeah, that's true, basically. (what Camel said, anyway.)

There isn't much in this game that is so utterly terrible that you should just never play it. If you like something, or like the idea of something, go for it. Try it out, at least.

What I'm doing--and you should never mistake my posts for anything else, really--is giving you advice that is geared, almost exclusively, towards helping you win.

There are few expenditures of points that are less likely to help you win than buying a 'jack for your Journeyman. (The Hammersmith and the Charger are both top competitors for that spot, for the record.)
It's sad, but it's definitely true. You're basically always better off with something else (with the possible exception of hordes of Mechanics--they're pretty worthless, too).

That being said, it is both cool and appropriate to have a 'jack on your JW. If you're sort of careful and lucky, it might not even end up being a serious detriment to your army. If you're set on trying it out, go for it.

You might give that Sentinel a shot, while you're at it. I had resigned mine to the closet long before they gave it that token buff to its subsequent attack rolls. I'm pretty convinced that this still doesn't make it a good 'jack, but it's so cool that I have always sorta wondered. ;)


Quick said:
]Also, he hates the game.
I'm fed up with the company. That's a little different. ;)

Also, don't go with Nemo as your primary caster. Don't get me wrong, I love the old man to death, but he just isn't all that good on his own. He's alright--you can win with him, but I'd bet money that, for any given Nemo army, you could replace Nemo with Haley and basically be happier--and win more often. Keep him around, but as a second caster for 1000 point armies first and foremost.

I do love that original recipe, though...
 

·
LO's Resident Time Lord
Joined
·
3,270 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Hah! Yeah, that's true, basically. (what Camel said, anyway.)

There isn't much in this game that is so utterly terrible that you should just never play it. If you like something, or like the idea of something, go for it. Try it out, at least.

What I'm doing--and you should never mistake my posts for anything else, really--is giving you advice that is geared, almost exclusively, towards helping you win.
Heh. Your advice is most welcome. I'm trying to balance a competitive list with one that looks cool. Thanks for the input!

I'm also learning that Warmachine is just as much about HOW you use your units as it is about WHAT units you bring to the table. Thus, theoretically, I can get spanked despite having a "perfect" list, and still wreak havoc with an "ill-advised" collection. If this is so, I may be forced to adopt TWO games in this growing hobby of mine ;)

It would also mean that, to an extent, what works for you has equal chance of working or not working for me. *shrug* All advice, from all of you guys, specific or not, is most welcome, and taken seriously.

Camel, what advice would you give a Cygnar player?

I do love that original recipe, though...
Heh. How bout mixing some Cryx "Death Turkeys" in there?

Actually, I was looking at the recent No Quarter about the Epic Nemo. Any thoughts on him? I am thinking about picking up Prime Nemo (or "Doc Brown," as I call him), but I don't think he's my first, or even my second choice. Course, he and Darius with a Warjack-heavy army could be devastating. Darius helps out my jacks, Nemo takes the enemy's apart.
 

·
resident iconoclast
Joined
·
791 Posts
I'm also learning that Warmachine is just as much about HOW you use your units as it is about WHAT units you bring to the table. Thus, theoretically, I can get spanked despite having a "perfect" list, and still wreak havoc with an "ill-advised" collection. If this is so, I may be forced to adopt TWO games in this growing hobby of mine
Oh, yes. Play decisions are far more imporant in this game than, say, in 40k. More important (even) than in Fantasy, I would wager.

Even so, it's an error to think that the lists don't matter at all. I wouldn't think about it in terms of 'perfect' lists, but there are definitely better and worse lists. A better list won't necessarily make you win, but if you're good enough to win with a worse list, you'll win even more with a better one.

When you're just starting out, a better list isn't necessarily going to let you crush everything you see, but it's certainly not going to hurt, either. ;)


Heh. How bout mixing some Cryx "Death Turkeys" in there?
The good doctor (I, too, am a fan of Back to the Future) is quite hard on bonejacks. With his ability to expand his Control Area, it's actually quite hard to protect the little buggers from him. I have, several times, moved him up far more aggressively than my opponents anticipated and, combined with an enlarged Control Area, used his feat to catch all of the enemy bonejacks--even the ones that seemed like they ought to be safe.

The best part is that, even after moving him forward more than would ordinarily be safe, he wasn't really in any danger of dying. Even the 'jacks that weren't just wrecked were disrupted--unable to receive focus or arc spells--so there wasn't actually all that much which could threaten him in the next turn.
 

·
Drills baby.
Joined
·
6,481 Posts
Cygnar you say? Well, a thing you need to realise early is that no matter how you twist and turn it you never will be able to fit in everythign you want, since Cygnar's stuff is bloody expensive. ;)
Trenchers and Long Gunners are really solid units that work well with almost all of their 'casters. I recommend both. Sword Knights are cheap and reliable with good abilities.
The JWC, as LoW pointed out, is kinda mandatory, and I really like the Gun Mage Captain Adepts as well.

I like battlebox-games (despite what LoW will say) since it is an reasonably cheap and easy way to get into the game and start playing quickly.
 

·
resident iconoclast
Joined
·
791 Posts
Yeah, that Captain Adept is spectacular. I often still use Eiryss, as well, but I like the GMCA better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,875 Posts
Welcome to the world of the Iron Kingdoms. We welcome your stay and hope you join our (conquest of the weak Southern nations in the name of the Empress) ranks, as Warmachine is a very fun game, if I may say so even more than 40k/Fantasy!

I have been playing for approximately two years now, and I will attempt to give you a detailed analysis of each faction.

Cygnar

Fluffwise, Cygnar is the most technologically advanced of the factions. Starting out in Prime they were essentially considered the "good guys" but in recent books (Apotheosis, Superiority) this has been essentially nullified as Stryker (one of the main characters and warcaster) has essentially gone over to the Dark Side and fighting with the doctrine of total war, incarceration in death/detention camps for enemy civilians, the whole nine yards.

Gamewise, I believe Cygnar to be the faction that is capable of making the most balanced (even if it's just a hair) faction when taking into effect shooting, melee, and magic (the three big things in Warmachine). The traditional archetype of Cygnar is they are a "sit 'n shoot" type of army. This is a logical conception rooted in Prime armies specifically revolving around the warcasters Haley and Caine, and it is an accurate description. Cygnar has the most ACCURATE guns, but power wise, they are roughly equal to other factions (depending on what guns/units you're using).

One thing to note is that in Warmachine, there are currently four books out, with a fifth one (Legends) coming out in GenCon 2008. There are LOTS of warcasters, warjacks, units, solos, character solos, etc. If you really wanted to make a warrior-heavy melee Cygnar army, you can and it is completely viable simply due to the fact that everything in Warmachine has the capability to trash something else (in roughly 90% of the cases). HOWEVER, Cygnar's bread & butter are their guns, and speaking honestly, a pure-melee Cygnar army can never match the sheer brutality of a Cryxian Bane swarm or a Khador steamroller filled with Iron Fangs and such.

The troops in Cygnar tend to be relatively weak, have average defense and armor, and are priced reasonably. Compared to the other factions, Cygnar is weak on army synergy and combinations that require synergy. The units are pretty much independent, and will require specific buffs from your Warcasters and such. Most troops are also single-wound models and usually die pretty fast, especially guys such as long gunners, trenchers, and gun mages. Cygnaran warcasters are also pretty weak (with the exception of Epic Stryker). Most of they simply SUCK in melee, and are not very good assassins at all.

In conclusion, I would say Cygnar is a faction that focuses on a balance between buffs, generally more shooting than melee, and several warjacks, using light 'jacks as arcnodes to channel spells, and the one or two heavy warjack that serves as the backbone to the army. Their armies tend to revolve around softening up and denying the opposing force with magic and guns, then finishing off the warcaster using a combination of magic, shooting, and possibly even a direct caster assassination in specific and rare occasions.

Khador

Khador the country north of Cygnar, has the longest history of the nations of men in the Iron Kingdoms, and is typically perceived as a brutal, simple nation whose armies rely more on brute strength than tactical prowess. This is both true and false, which I will explain why later. Fluffwise, Khador is based off of every negative archetype from Tzarist Russia and the Soviet Union. In essence, they are a big, red imperialistic machine of war hell-bent on reclaiming lands they lost to Cygnar unjustly (or so they claim). due to historical documents and agreements. Most people perceive Khador as the slowest, hardest hitting faction with the most "elite" troops, the most brutal melee-oriented warcasters, and ranged support in the form of either elite snipers or inaccurate mortars.

Khador is a huge nation also, and resource is scarce. In game terms, Khador does not have access to any "light warjacks." Light Warjacks are the ones that have arc nodes to channel spells through, and every other faction gets them. Except Khador. That said, EVERY SINGLE Khadoran warjack (with the exception of one) has more armor, damage boxes, and power than ANY warjack from ANY other faction. The drawbacks are they Khadoran warjacks are slow, are very easy to hit, and will usually miss their attack unless you boost the attack roll. They highest armor of any "normal" warjack with a shield is 21 in all of Warmachine. Khador has a warjack with armor plating on each arm that when closed, gives it armor 25. I think you get the picture.

Khadoran warrior units on the other hand, are equally devastating and thickly armored. Because Khador lacks light warjacks, they have live men in steam armor called "Men-o-War." These guys are either armed with a shield and halberd, or with an "ice maul" that will demolish literally anything in the game with just a few hits. Other units include Iron Fang Pikemen, who all have "blasting pikes" that can knock down enemy units. There are also Iron Fang cavalry who are the hardest hitting cavalry in the entire game, and a Man-O-War on a horse bigger than a warjack called a Drakuhn.

The Warcasters from Khador are also incredibly powerful, arguably the most powerful in terms of pure destructive power alone from stats and spells. Remember, Khador doesn't have light 'jacks with arc nodes. So all spells have to be cast FROM the caster, which means unless you're casting buffs on your own guys, you have to be up and personal with the opponent. Whereas many enemy warcasters will want to stay OUT of melee, most (but not all) of our casters want to engage at a reasonable time (as in, not throw him ahead of everything and get blown to pieces). But casters like the Butcher, who can single handedly ANNIHILATE ANYTHING by himself and is someone your opponent will not want to engage with EVER; Sorscha, who has a ridiculous defense and is one of the best assassins in the entire game; Vlad, who is good at everything from buffing to combat.

That said, although Khador has good offensive spells, most players will choose to buff their own units with things like "increased speed" or "higher defense" or "more damage." You know those slow and ponderous warjacks? Oh yeah, now they're faster than anything you have. That is one of Khador's primary strengths - sudden bursts of raw speed and power in order to critically wound an opponent's army. Playing Khador is NOT easy, as there are MANY things in the game that can overcome high armor and what not. Khador requires some serious tactical ability, because with the lack of Arc Nodes, the relative slowness of most things, and the fact that most of our troops are more expensive (pointwise) than all the other factions make Khador just as much of a finesse-oriented army as any other.

Protectorate of Menoth

The weird faction that newbies can't seem to classify, yet they have their own distinct playstyle and feel. Fluffwise, the Protectorate are . . . . well, a Protectorate. Of Cygnar, actually. Except these guys have taken their religion just a bit extreme and acts independently of Cygnar, ignoring anything they try to impose. In short, they are a theocracy based on the WORST aspects of both Christian Crusaders and Muslim Jihadists from the 11th-13th centuries. These guys are torelant of . . . . burning heretics and the unfaithful with the flames of purgation, executing traitors and the unfaithful, "wracking" (essentially crucifying) both friend and foe, public displays of torture and what not, open elimination of all sorcerers (unless they are like warcasters in the name of Menoth), etc. On the other hand, Menoth players will simply call themselves the true followers of Menoth and they are simply carrying out his will. Remember in the Iron Kingdoms - the gods exist, just like in Warhammer.

I don't play Protectorate, but if I were to start a second faction, they would be it. I cannot sum up their playstyle in terms of melee or shooting, but I guess I can say that they are heavily based upon magic and unit/army synergies. Unit wise, they usually field lots of REALLY cheap guys that usually do ALOT of damage, but has a high chance of killing themselves. They can field the most AOE weapons out of every faction, has the most powerful warjacks next to Khador, and have warcasters that are both powerful in spells and melee. Their elite units such as Knights Exemplar and Temple Flameguard are strong, solid units. Although not as powerful as Khador in terms of sheer power, they can usually be made into units that hit just as hard through the use of spells, feats, and whatnot.

Like I've said before, Protectorate are all about the synergy. In Cygnar, Khador and Cryx, the order of unit activations usually has little impact. Usually it's warcasters will activate, cast a few spells, may use their feat, and the rest of the army goes to town. Not necessarily so for Menoth armies. For example, they have units of choirs that directly buff their warjacks. Activating the warjacks first will essentially waste having choirs there. They also have something called the Covenent of Menoth, which is a guy bearing a man-sized book. There are passages that when read, really help out the army. But certain criteria must be fulfilled, such as a certain number of enemies must die, etc.

Another huge part of the their synergy is their magic. Protectorate warcasters specialize in ANTI-magic, buffs, and debuffs. They do not care so much about offensive spells than spells that would . . . take away your upkeeps, prevent you from doing almost anything, removing effects in play, and then in turn make their own guys hit hard as a freight train. So, stacking bonuses on top of debuffing the opponent and making him cry is a part of what makes a Protectorate army work.

Oh, and one last thing. They like burning people a lot, so they have lots of units with an affinity for fire. Like temple flameguard. And the warcaster Feora, Priestess of the Flame. And flameguard cleansers, who are armed with a backpack of gasoline and a flamethrower each. Then you have the Castigator, a warjack that overheats other warjacks with its punches and can ignite nearby soldiers in fire. So if you like the whole "IN BURN YOU IN THE NAME OF GOD" thing, then this is the faction for you. Or if you're just a pyromaniac. Plus they have cool models to boot.

Cryx

A.K.A., people usually hate playing against them. Why? Because they're undead. Actually that's not why. It's because they are evil, both story-wise and game-wise. They are dirty, they are mean, and they don't give a crap that now half of your army is useless (or dead). Undead servants of the most powerful Dragon in the world. Yeah, that's Cryx for you.

With armies of darkness created by the powerful Lich Lords who serve the Dragonfather, the Cryxian horde is a nightmare (literally) to face for almost anyone. The reason is, Cryx relies on dirty tricks. And they have a whole boatload of them. Silly mortal, Tryx are for Cryx!!! (Ok that was retarded). Anyways, Cryx has access to the cheapst, most pittily weakling warjacks called bonejacks (otherwise known as death chickens). Their goal is to run around, arc your spells, annoy the living daylight out of your opponent, and get destroyed some time or another. Speaking of getting destroyed, if you enjoy killing your own units to do massive damage to your opponent, then this may be the faction for you.

Cryx has equal access to cheap, effective (or useless, depending if the enemy can kill them or not), weak, insignificant units. Like little scrap thralls that costs only a few points each and will run up, explode, and probably take a sizeable chunk of your opponent's army with him. Or how about the bile thralls, who walk up, puke/explode, and wipe out half of the opposing force. I can just go on and on, but I think you will get the general picture. On the other hand of the spectrum, Cryx has the SINGLE MOST DEVASTATING MELEE UNIT IN WARMACHINE. Don't ask me why, they just are. IMO, they are underpriced (points) for what you get, but yeah. There are units that hit just as hard if not harder, but everything these guys do are just wrong. You're just dying to find out what they are, aren't you? They are called Bane Knights. Don't get them confused with Bane Thralls, those cost more points and suck more. Bane Knights = broken = stupid = needs to be errata-ed and cost more points.

/end rant.

But yes, Bane Knights and Bane Thralls are the wrecking crew of any Cryxian army, troopers that will demolish units, warjacks, and anything else with relatively ease.

The favored method of killing by Cryx is assassination, usually with massive spell-slinging, warjacks, or face-to-face warcaster confrontations. However, one must note that save for three warcasters (and two of these are questionable), the rest of the Cryxian warcaster list pretty much SUCK at close combat. Yes, even more than Cygnar. So how do they pull off those nasty wins? Well, playing Cryx is kinda like playing an army of suicide bombers and running arc nodes to soften up your opponent's forces, force him to engage with your heavy hitters at one point or another, and then find an opening in his defenses and use that to your full advantage. Cryxian magic is also rather horrible simply because half of it is based around lockdown spells, denial spells, and other forms of pure nastiness.

So if you like chugging around lots of spells, like undead things and/or dragons, like speed and accuracy (the warjacks hit quite often) over armor and raw power, and most of all enjoy making your opponent's suffer and take delight in his pain and anguish, then this is the faction for you.

I hope that helps, and believe me, this is just a pretty vague generalization of each faction. If you have any specific questions and want to ask me, feel free to do so. Send me a PM or make a new thread, I try to check here once in a while and will try to respond to all questions promptly.

Good luck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Adrian MalSeraph

·
LO's Resident Time Lord
Joined
·
3,270 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Woot! Thanks for the rundown!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,875 Posts
You're welcome. :)

So have you chosen a faction yet?
 

·
LO's Resident Time Lord
Joined
·
3,270 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
You're welcome. :)

So have you chosen a faction yet?
I think I'm going Cygnar. I'll be picking up the starter box set next weekend, but Left of West, be assured that I will not confine myself to it. I know I'm going to pick up Captain Haley and a Journeyman Warcaster. I'm trying to think ahead to 500 points, and it seems to do so well I should probably get an infantry unit of some kind. I don't like the look of the sword knights, storm knights, or storm glaives, so it seems I have roughly three choices:

Arcane Tempest Gun Mages + Gun Mage Captain Adept

Trenchers x 8 + UA

Long Gunners x 8 + UA

I like the first choice best, as it will provide me with infantry and a very popular, versatile solo. Only trouble is, I fear the army, overall, will be too vulnerable to a charging horde.

I should add that I already sent away for the free Eiryss (sp?) model, so she'll be in there, too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,875 Posts
Long Gunners and Trenchers are all good choices. I actually faced an army that consisted of mostly shooting int one of our League games and did very well against it. It was a 750pt game, me using Epic Sorscha and my opponent Epic Caine. His army consisted of a Thunderhead, Defender, Hunter, GMCA, Gun Mages, Long Gunners, Junior, and Aiyana & Holt.

Everything in my army either had multiple wounds or ridiculously high armor. In the end he couldn't really do much, and I was able to destroy his 'jacks pretty easily.

One thing that I always seem to find many Cygnar players lacking is anti-armor stuff. Sure you can shoot a lot, but if you can't damage then what's the point? Sure you have spells and abilities that allow for extra damage or range, but say against a Khadoran Man-O-War force or a Trollblood army one or two points of damage isn't going to be much of a problem.

Couple ways around it is to get a Hunter - this 'jack is great for taking out big armored units like a heavy 'jack or the Drakuhn. You might also want to invest in a Centurion; this 'jack cannot be charged and is a beast through-and-through.

I like Cygnar, but I don't like their lists where they don't have many heavy hitters. You need something to support fragile core troops.
 

·
resident iconoclast
Joined
·
791 Posts
While Gunmages are great fun (and the GMCA is fantastic) Infrazael is right in that Cygnar has to seriously consider where its heavy hitters are coming from. It's all well and good to put out a lot of shots, but if all those shots are just going to bounce off high armour targets, then you still don't have a good list.

And, really, that's the problem with gunmages. Between their push-back shots and cortex-blowing shots, they can control Warjacks fairly well, and they'll kill a handful of infantry (they're pretty good shots, and power 10's usually good enough against lighter stuff). Against men-o-war, cavalry, or high-armour infantry (like Ironfangs or, really, anything else with shields or access to armour buffs) they start failing.


Really, this is why there are long gunners. Long gunners, more than any other infantry--more than any other unit, period, really-- put out heavy-hitting shots at range. With Combined Ranged attack, your eight long gunners can put out two POW:18, RAT:15 shots at 14 inches. They're virtually guaranteed to hit anything, and they're virtually guaranteed to hurt anything. And they do it twice. No other ranged unit can even approximate this quality of firepower.

And, of course, if you're up against smaller targets (say, Iron-fangs with Shield Wall) you can split your shots up however you want. Those eight long gunners can put out sixteen RAT:6, POW:10 shots;, or eight RAT:8, POW:12 shots; or four RAT:10, POW 14 shots; or any number of other possible combinations.

No matter what the target, you can easily optimize your fire to deal with it effectively.

In the not-exclusively-melee Cygnar list, Long Gunners are practically a must.


Sometimes, though, putting out shots at range just isn't what you need. When they finally get into melee with you (hopefully later, rather than sooner--thanks, Temporal Barrier!) you'll need a melee-heavy hitter. I've used Storm Blades and Sword Knights and Iron Clads, and all sorts of other things, and here's what I've found.


- 'Jjacks work better than infantry. "What, you say? Aren't 'jacks just gimpy compared to infantry?" Well, yes. Yes they are. Even so, 'jacks have one advantage over infantry that's very significant in your gun-line army. They're on one base. Your melee hitters can't really stand in front of your guns, because they'd block the shots. They can't stand off to the side of the guns, because that makes it too easy for your opponent to avoid them or, worse, engage them in melee even sooner by coming at them from the side. You want everyone as close to the center of your 'bubble', especially if you're playing Haley, as you can, to maximize the number of shots you'll be able to take before ending up in melee.
Ultimately, the only place for them is behind the long gunners--and if they're behind the long gunners, they're hard pressed to get to the enemy around the long gunners themselves. 'Jacks are much easier to maneuver within your relatively cramped formations.

- Reach is important. One infantry unit I never did try, but which may well be a fantastic answer to the problem are Storm Guard--the electricy ones with the big pole-arms. Why? 'Cause they have reach. Reach affords you another way to get your guys into melee without having to worry about those long gunners. If you've got little gaps between your long gunners anyway, your Storm Guards can just mosey up behind them and poke the offending enemy infantry through the gaps.


In the end, I never made the switch to Storm Guard for two reasons:

First, I didn't really want to shell out for them when what I had worked fine.

Second, they're going to have trouble with heavy 'jacks. Sure, they'll put some hurt on one. And they'll murder a bunch of infantry, if that's what happens to hit melee with you, but when a heavy has just run into your lines, you can't afford much less than wiping it out in one turn. When you have to do that, only another heavy really fits the bill.

In your case, that Ironclad does a fine job. What I used is a Centurion, and, having read my other advice, you'll see why. It's a 'jack, and it has reach. Nothing beats it when it comes to fending enemy 'jacks off your vulnerable long gunners. Often times, I can remove the enemy 'jack without even making my Long Gunners move first, leaving them free to shoot later in the turn.

As a note, being able to beat 'jacks in melee is more important than being able to beat infantry in melee. Why? 'Cause nothing mows down Infantry like Long Gunners with Temporal Barrier. They stand still for an effective RAT 6. TB gives drops the enemy defense by 3. They take two shots each. They're hard-pressed to fail to wipe out standard units of infantry. 'Jacks tend to reach you far more often than do Infantry, and so it's beating 'jacks that should be your main concern.



So, ultimately, I'd suggest Long Gunners. The Unit Attachment seems like a good buy, but I wouldn't consider it obligatory. I'm not sure I'd give up, say, a Journeyman or Captain Adept for it.

Same with the Trenchers, really. While their unit attachments are fine, they're pretty secondary to the point. The point of Trenchers is smoke. Above all else, you bring them for smoke. It's just too good a defensive measure. Sure, when it comes down to it, they take some good shots and some funny bayonet charges, but, in the end, their Unit Attachment was primarily released to draw the focus away from their smoke and make them look like a more combat-oriented unit.

Don't be fooled. Even with the UA, they're still all about smoke. Since the UA doesn't buff this ability, and doesn't leave them with combat-effectiveness which is much better than what they have anyway, I am not certain I would mess with these UAs in most games.

Still, you should own six trenchers. Go out and buy a box. More than that? Eh, it doesn't hurt, but I'd rather see you put the points into more Long Gunners. The Long Gunners kick out more damage--more trenchers just provide you a bigger smoke line, and you shouldn't need more than 18 inches.

I still maintain that:

Haley
-Lancer
-Centurion
Gunmage Captain Adept
Eiryss
Journeyman Warcaster
8 Long Gunners
6 Trenchers

is about the epitome of 500 point gun-line Cygnar lists. It has the smoke and the TB to keep both shots and melee away. It has the Long Gunners for kicking out the damage at range (eight tends to be fine). It has Eiryss and GMCA for picking off choice enemy models and shooting through enemy LOS blocking devices. In addition, the GMCA can blow cortices and push guys around (I routinely shoot my Cent in the back before a particularly important and long-range charge just to give him some extra distance). The Journeyman keeps Arcane Shield on either the Trenchers or the Long Gunners (depending on what incoming fire you're expecting) and puts the rest of his focus into his own pistol, which reliably kills a guy--even a fairly tough guy--a round. Haley usually spends her time casting Temporal Barrier, upkeeping another Arcane Shield, and boosting her own pistol shots. Sometimes, she'll drop Arcane Shield to cast Chain Lightning, and when it's necessary, she'll put those three focus into the Centurion and have it go pick off some melee threat.


Anyway, about your question: My advice on infantry is six Trenchers. At least eight Long Gunners. You're already getting an Eiryss and a Journeyman. I advise a Centurion, but it's a fairly big item, and it's only a little better than the Iron Clad, so you might stick with your Iron Clad, for now. If you like the idea of Gunmages, I'd start with a GMCA and avoid the regular Gunmages, for now. The GMCA is really good and the Gun-mages are a little more iffy. The Captain Adept has that same great taste, but less calories.

Oh, right. One other reason you should get the GMCA.

Remember that Heavy 'Jack that's going to run up to your Long Gunners, engage them in melee, and eventually kill them all if you can't do something about it? Well, the GMCA is your man, there. Let's postulate even a particularly high-defense heavy 'jack. A Slayer, say, with DEF:13. With TB, that Slayer drops to 10. Even if your GMCA moves, and has to shoot into melee (and if he's not shooting into melee, it's not an issue anyway) he's rolling at sixes--eight RAT, minus four, vs. 10 defense. With Deadeye (or even if he's just able to take the shot standing still) you're virtually guaranteed to hit. And, you've got the push-back shot. All of a sudden, that Slayer goes from being in melee (and thus immune to Combined Ranged Attacks) to being out of melee, where you can really put the hurt on him. It's pretty spectacular.
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top