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Suffer not the Unclean
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This came up in the VC forum and since it's a rules query I thought I'd post it here to the broader audience. I made the picture below to illustrate. Purple boxes are rank and file troops, green box is a ridden monster on a chariot size base.

The assertion I disagreed with is that drawing A is a unit with a +2 rank bonus. I think that this is faulty, as nowhere is it indicated a model can occupy multiple ranks. The monster is rank 1, file 5, he can't also count as rank 2 file 5, rank 3 file 5, etc. Picture A is just an expedient for game play and movement purposes for what you actually have, which is picture B, a unit with a +1 rank bonus and an incomplete third rank. (I'm not suggesting anybody actually set up a regiment that way, it'd look stupid and be impossible to move, but that's how the ranks should be counted.)



It just does not seem possible to me, from the rules, that you can have 3 ranks without 15 distinct physical models. tacking a monster onto the end of a 4x4 block shouldn't suddenly give them a +3 rank bonus!
 

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King of Librarium's Tombs
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A is right. In a way, its more the unit Str that counts towards ranks, not just the fact its one model. Cav are US2, so occupy two spaces. Ofcourse it differs for larger bases, the actual positioning is very scenario dependant, it would be hard to cover them all here i think.
 

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King of Librarium's Tombs
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When would that situation ever arise...?!? lol. And i think id have t say no here, as there are less than 5 Rank and File models.
 

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Fun guy from Yuggoth
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I think InquisitorAffe is on the right track here. Deceiver, if you are correct about unit strength, then a unit of 5 wide 2 deep cavalry models would have a +3 rank bonus!

EDIT: The impression I have is that you should look at how many models make up the front rank, and then look at how many models you have in total for the unit, and use THAT to determine the rank bonus. In the top example, you have a front rank of 5 and 13 total models, giving you two full ranks (+1 bonus) and an incomplete rank with the 3 remainder.
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You could easily create that situation with the new VC book. It doesn't make much sense, but consider adding a couple more purple guys, you'd have a solid wall of monsters that have Look-Out-Sir! and are immune to regular ranged weapons. The regiment is 5 wide, and, if applying the notion that monsters can occupy multiple ranks backward, 4 deep. (also, if they can't occupy multiple files, why would they be able to occupy multiple ranks?)
 

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King of Librarium's Tombs
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What would these Chariot sized characters be exactly? Im not sure if chariots themselves can join units...
 

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King of Librarium's Tombs
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Yea why not, but that wouldn't just apply to VC, any army could have 4 Cav Characters joining a unit of 12 RnF, for a total of 3 ranks.
But why would you ever do it? It limits their movement, and all the pts in tat unit, your opponent would shoot it at range, then avoid it in combat. Waste of points just for some rank bonuses i think...
 

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I posted this in the vampire forum aswell so thought I should post it here. I was under the impression that the following was true.
You dont actually need 20 distinct models to get 4 ranks. Case in point Saurus hero on cold one in unit of Saurus. H = Hero on cold one S = Saurus

SSSSH
SSSSH
SSSSS
SSSSS

Only 19 models but 4 ranks as in each rank there are 5 models.

Also note that the following would only give you 1 rank bonus from combat.

S = Slann T = Temple guard

TTTTT
TTSST
TTSST
TTTTT

I've seen this done many times before andyou would only get 1 rank bounus in combat as the 2nd and 3rd rank have only 4 models in them.
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
SSSSH
SSSSH
SSSSS
SSSSS
Only 19 models but 4 ranks as in each rank there are 5 models.
Also note that the following would only give you 1 rank bonus from combat.
S = Slann T = Temple guard
TTTTT
TTSST
TTSST
TTTTT
I've seen this done many times before andyou would only get 1 rank bounus in combat as the 2nd and 3rd rank have only 4 models in them.
Why would you count the hero twice in two different ranks in example one, but not count the Slann twice in two different files in example 2? It's the exact same thing. The same model shouldn't be counted twice in either situation. With the Slann, Rank 2 only has 4 models in it. With the Saurus, File 5 only has 3 models in it. +3 rank bonus required 5 files, each with 4 models in it.
 

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Fun guy from Yuggoth
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Why would you count the hero twice in two different ranks in example one, but not count the Slann twice in two different files in example 2? It's the exact same thing. The same model shouldn't be counted twice in either situation. With the Slann, Rank 2 only has 4 models in it. With the Saurus, File 5 only has 3 models in it. +3 rank bonus required 5 files, each with 4 models in it.
Indeed. The rulebook tells us that you earn a rank bonus for each extra rank with a minimum of 5 models, and that each subsequent rank except the last one must have *the same number of models*. It does not make allowances for models of differing base sizes, such as cavalry in an infantry unit. This means that even though the cavalry (or monster, or whatever) base extends past the other models in the front rank, the second rank must still have 5 additional models to make up a complete rank, as the cavalry model is in the *front* rank, not the second rank, and there is absolutely no indication anywhere that a model can occupy more than one rank or more than one file at a time.

That is to say, the number of ranks and the number of files in a unit are determined by the number of models, not by the size of the models.
 

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Ok so in the slann example that i used (below) how many rank bonuses would you get? Phoenix above says 3 and other people argue just 1 (the last rank).

TTTTT
TTSST
TTSST
TTTTT

So to effectivly use a slann would I need to have 7 files as per below to give me +3 CR in close combat:

TTTTTTT
TTSSTTT
TTSSTTT
TTTTTTT

Remember T = Temple guard, S = Slann and Slann takes up all 4 spots.
 

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King of Librarium's Tombs
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*sigh*... too easy

Lizzie army book, Page 24. Slann special rules, Palanquin, lines 2-4. Need it any clearer than that?? :p


Also, BRB pg8, top right... ''each cavalry model counts as 2 infantry'', just in case that solves any issues for you too.
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Slann having unique special rules for their unit makes them kind of bad as an example. I don't have a copy of the lizard men army book to reference.

Pg 8 is under the heaidng Unit Strength. Unit Strength and Rank Bonus are totally unrelated. Every reference to how rank bonus is calculated is based on the number of models, not the unit str of those models. By that reasoning, 10 cavalry riding 5x2 should have a +3 rank bonus...?
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Assuming it weren't a Slann which apparently has army specific special rules, but any old monster on a 50x50 base, you can have a rank bonus with 5 across with a regiment that looks like this:


Remember all of the rules are related to the number of models occupying each rank and file. It never says they have to line up nice, it says they have to have the same number of models.

In practice that looks stupid and would be a pain in the butt to move around, so we'd never actually rank up a unit like that, we wrap them around and make it all tidy and military looking. but that's how it should be thought of abstractly for determining the bonus.
 

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Okay following over here from the link of the original discussion...

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/vampire-counts/116258-corpse-carts-3.html

So after reading this, a Skeleton unit that has a Necro + Corpse Cart which looks like this

SSCCSS
SSCCSS
SSCCSS

With each S being "a" Skeleton, and the '2x3' C's being the Corpse Cart + Necro

Would NOT be counted as 3 ranks then?

So is it then 1 rank filled?
(front rank plus the corpse cart and necro, but back two 'ranks' aren't considered full)

2 ranks filled?
(front rank, plus the necro AND the corpse cart each count for 'a' rank each, so 1st rank filled by one and 2nd rank by the other, but 3rd still unfilled)
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The character and his ridden monster are only one model. You'd have a front rank of 4 skeletons and a ridden monster, a second rank of 5 skeletons, and a third rank of 3 skeletons. (Or a front rank of 5 skeletons and a ridden monster, a second rank of 6 skeletons, third rank of 1, or... you get the idea) Assembling them into something that looks like a decent regiment is a matter of aesthetics and gentlemanly play.
 
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