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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Re: Assault and being Assaulted again

There's been a lot of discussion on here over whether you are allowed to assault a unit that assaults you in the middle of an ongoing combat. I spoke to GW and here is the official line... NO

If you are locked in combat, and another unit assaults you, you must continue to assault the original unit for 1 full round of combat, before you can direct your attacks at the new unit.

It's apparently in the wording, as a round of combat begins 'before' charges are declared, i.e. before the new unit attacked, thus you are NOT in base contact with the new unit at the beginning of the combat round. But will be in the beginning of the next combat round.
 

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Firefly
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4,209 Posts
No, no, no.

If you are assaulted whilst engaged in combat with another unit, you can strike at whichever unit you want.

If you do a search you will see some discussions on this already. It is a poorly worded passage but your GW person was totally wrong.
 

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Son of LO
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3,930 Posts
Even though he has been trained in the rules at Head office and you haven't?
Was it a store redshirt? Store dudes are frequently wrong. They get hired primarily on their ability to make sales. Even if they do pay attention to the rules, having to keep three complete rulesets in your head at one time is hard for any normal guy to manage.

I'm friends with the local store guys and I'm almost certain none of them got sent to the head office for a rules seminar or anything like it. They're just hobbyists with a dogged persistence when it comes to getting you to buy stuff.

Edit: I can tell you with certainty that I've never heard that a unit locked in combat assaulted by a second unit can only target the first. Not in friendlies or tournaments, held in the store or out of it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well I think the Errata covers it:

• Models that at the beginning of the combat
(before any model attacked) were engaged with
more than one enemy unit, but were in base
contact with just one of the enemy units, must
attack that unit.

And since before you are charged you were in base contact with just one unit.... I rest my case. He wasn't the only one anyway. And I know the guy, he's been playing 40K since long before he was a store guy. Since school in fact. Which would be a long time, as he is now in his 30's.
 

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Son of LO
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3,930 Posts
That doesn't prove your case. The assaulted unit could still attack models from the second assaulting unit if they had been moved into B2B. It would only apply to models in the assaulted unit which aren't in B2B with models from the second assaulting unit. I think there's a diagram explaining who can attack in this situation.

And I know the guy, he's been playing 40K since long before he was a store guy. Since school in fact. Which would be a long time, as he is now in his 30's.
I know you know the guy. But I also know a guy who wears the same shirt as your guy, and my guy swears blind that what you're saying doesn't happen.

We're shaping up to some sort of "Battle of the Guys" discussion, here.
 

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Firefly
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4,209 Posts
Well I think the Errata covers it:

• Models that at the beginning of the combat
(before any model attacked) were engaged with
more than one enemy unit, but were in base
contact with just one of the enemy units, must
attack that unit.
That actually proves my point. ;)

Models at the beginning of the combat is defined as before attacks are made. SO since the other unit moves before ANY attacks can be made then both units are a valid target.

Sorry mate, but quoting "redshirts" as gospel has been the downfal of many an arguement.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ah but when you add this errata to bullet point 1 on p41, you now realise that you were engaged with just a single enemy unit at the beginning of the 'round' ie the assualt phase, leaving you to be slaughtered by the new unit. It's that way for a reason, and my take is people who try and quote it the other way have had powerful units charged by crappy units they can't kill in a single round, only to then be charged by a unit of TH/SS termies who go on to butcher them completely.

This is the very reasoning behind the rule as it is. So you have a slight tactical thing there, you tie up a powerful unit with a weak unit that has lots of models, then move a new unit in that can wipe them out. Which would be negated by them being able to say 'oh hell I've just had a knife in my back, let's sort this out before we die guys'.
 

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Son of LO
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3,930 Posts
I've read the relevant sections and I do not understand how you arrived at your conclusion.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
A 'round' of combat begins at the beginning of the assault phase correct? So then if you are in base contact with a unit at the beginning of the round of combat, you can only assault that unit until the next round. I think the only way this can be truly answered and stop all the discussion (and I'm willing to ask out around here) is if somebody can find an official GW battle report that shows it. Let's face it, it's a pretty rare thing to have happen, I don't think I've seen it in any WD Bat rep I've read. If it had, the discussion would be over, as it could be taken that if WD do it X way or Y way, that must be how it's meant. Or of course somebody can get the guys who wrote the darned rule to comment on it.
 

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Firefly
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4,209 Posts
Likewise, I don't see how you are reading this. This topic has come up a few times and I guess you can try a search for it.
 

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Now w/ English voice-over
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454 Posts
I agree with ze_poodle and Skarsgard on this one, it has been brought up before and it's really not more than a bad wording on some of the rules.

You have to perform your assaults first.

THEN decide which models are allowed to attack which units.

If you decide this before you perform assaults then assaulting units would never be allowed to attack in the first place as they aren't locked with any unit at the start of the assault phase..


Edit:
@jboweruk: A round of combat starts at step 3 during the assault phase. At least that is my understanding of the rules.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
I see where you're coming from, and I've posted the question on the official GW boards, in the hope we'll get it truly answered once and for all. Due to the wording it could be either way. Since you aren't in base contact with anyone until you're charged, theoretically neither could attack on the first turn. However, if you are busy fighting somebody, and then a new combatant comes in and hits you, you're probably dead before you can react. I'd love to hear from one of the guys who actually wrote the rule and see what they intended.

There's been almost as many threads and discussions as opinions, both here and in the real world. I've played it both ways, and had it done to me both ways. Either works very well, though the can't attack does give a weaker army a small tactical advantage in some combat situations.
 

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Son of LO
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3,930 Posts
Assuming that combat begins at the start of the assault phase is absurd. At the start of the assault phase, no-one has made their assault movements. Combat would begin with nobody engaged.

I'd love to hear from one of the guys who actually wrote the rule and see what they intended.
This would be a wonderful thing, but the tragedy of rulebooks written by committee is that sometimes the committee doesn't have the same intentions. I've seen FAQs written which clearly contradict the wording of a rule in a Codex despite calling it a "clarification", and all I can assume is that the person assigned to the FAQ wasn't the person who wrote the rule he's FAQing.
 

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Registered
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579 Posts
A 'round' of combat begins at the beginning of the assault phase correct?
No, and this point is always where the confusion comes in. As LastDinosaur pointed out, according to pg. 33 combat doesn't begin until #3, after assault units and defenders react movements have been made.
 

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Registered
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2,884 Posts
Assault Phase:
1. Make Charges
2. Defenders React
3. Resolve Combat

Step 3 is where the round of combat begins, the quote you brought up earlier states that if a unit is "engaged" This simply means that they are engaged in fighting a close combat.

Later in the same quote it states

"but were in base
contact with just one of the enemy units, must
attack that unit."

This means that if you have 2 units fighting 2 units, something like this

e=enemy unit #1
E=enemy unit #2
a=controlling player unit #1
A=controlling player unit #2

aaaaaaaaaaa
eeeeeeeeeea
eeeeeeeaaaaaaaa
AAAAAAA
AAAEEEE
EEEE

As you can see
unit E is in base contact with unit A and must direct their attacks at them
unit A is in base contact with units E and e so may direct their attacks at either, or split them if they wish
unit e is in base contact with units A and a so may direct their attacks at either, or split them if they wish
unit a is in base contact with unit e and must direct their attacks at them

Lets use another example
A=controlling player unit
C=controlling player character
E=enemy unit

AAAACAAAA
EAAAAAAAAE
EEEEEEEEEEE

Unit A will attack unit E as normal
Unit E must attack unit A as none of them are in base contact with the character
The character may not attack as he is his own unit in combat and is not in base to base contact with ay enemies

Does that help at all?

The Emperor Protects
 

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Registered
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2,638 Posts
As the other guys have pointed out...

If combat rounds began at the top of the Assault Phase, before assault moves are made, then no models would ever be engaged in their first round of combat. Nobody would ever receive a bonus for charging.

Also, this is not something that "can go either way". Folks are being nice to a fault by chalking it up to bad wording. Its clearly a case of bad reading. One has to take things outta order to draw jboweruk's conclusion.
 
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