[floyd_revolution]

I played my first game in a really long time just yesterday, against lizardmen. We played a 1500pts game, and I was severely outnumbered, though it was a fairly even battle until I had an unlucky magic phase toward the end, not getting anything through and leaving my crucial unit ripe for a rear-charge by a full block of saurus and a unit of skinks... eek.

It was a real learning experience and I discovered some things to do in the future which would have helped, and so made a 2000pt list.

I was versing 3 blocks of 16 saurus, one with a Slann; a skink priest, 3 skirmisher units of skinks, three salamanders, and three of the monster-sixed GW-lizard things.

I had 24 TG with a TK, 3 chariots, 19 bow skellies with LP, 2 scorps, a catapult, 7 light horsemen. I basically chucked in everything I had just to make up the points, and I knew from the beginning it was a bit of a weak list...

The King:
I put a bunch of magical gear on him, including the cloak of dunes; I know, wierd, but it worked! I needed my LP near the bows and ssc, so I had my TK zipping up and down Urgency-igying my units. My chariots connected with a charge in my 1st turn, and in the next my TK was back in the safety of his TG unit. Totally worth the 20pts.

The Scorps:
I deployed one, and had one underground. The deployed one charged a unit of skink skirmishers in turn 2 (lizardmen were first in turn pecking-order), and in the same turn the other one appeared... and scattered almost all the way back into my deployment zone *sigh*.

Because of the scatter, my only real choice was to charge it into a 16-strong block of saurus. The saurus were completely basic, no command, no upgrades.

Against the saurus I feel I was lucky, and against the skinks, very unlucky; both scorps lasted exactly 3 combat rounds. Yes, a unit of 10 skinks killed my beloved Tomb Scorpion... So many 6s

The lesson learned? I will always deploy my scorps; it just isn't worth the risk, and that is just my opinion. Secondly, every combat round I kept thinking 'damn, if only I had a bit more support in the combat, I could cream these suckers'. So now I will put my scorps together, and they will charge units together. Their movement is awesome (for tomb kings...) and I could easily set up at least a flank if I had two in tandem... by why not 3? That would rock.


The skellies:
I had these deployed in 2 ranks for max shootiness, and they stood on the spot the whole game. They were very........ poor. I got my first volley of the game off with Smiting, and cause a grand zero wounds on a saurus block. After that my opponent promptly laughed and didn't bother wasting his dispel dice on the unit for the rest of the game, saving them up for my urgencies and combat-smiting instead.

The entire game, they only killed about 4 saurus, out of at least 80 shots.

I also discovered that by standing still, even though I got more shooting in, I was a sitting duck, and I was easily outmanoeuvred. I have now decided that bows are a bonus, and should be treated as such. I've pumped up my unit to add more ranks, and will direct them as I would a normal skellie combat unit, and just use the shooting as I edge closer to the enemy to score a few bonus wounds.

Also, 20 skellies just didn't cut it. They were charged by the three aforementioned GW-lizard monster things, and survived the first round. I pumped them back up with Summoning, but I could tell in two more combat rounds they would have been finished.


The Tomb Guard:
These guys were really solid; they didn't really do much in the way of killing stuff, but they didn't need to; their toughness was their best feature, keeping them alive from magic missiles, salamanders, and CC, so that when my TK sliced up a few saurus, I had enough ranks behind me to cause the saurus to break, even with their precious Slann's leadership


The Horsemen:
My poor, poor horsemen. Due to unlucky positioning I had no choice but to charge them headlong into the unit of three salamanders, getting them killed in one round; at least it slowed the enemy down a bit.. sort of... Horsemen are too much of a gamble, and too hard to use effectively, so I won't be bothering again.


The Chariots:
Were surprising... 3 basic chariots with the Icon of the Seeing Eye. The Icon was a WASTE and did not affect things at all. Never again.

But the chariots took 3 volleys of poisoned darts and still held out. They ran a skink unit off the table and overran his skink priest. Despite earning their points back in that way, they earned them back doubly just by being a nuisance and distracting his skinks from the rest of my army, and even seemed threat enough for my opponent to start sending a saurus block that direction (who promptly chewed the chariots to bits, but still! It was worth the distraction!)

Chariots are ace, but I still fear they might be too flimsy. I will experiment using them, but I think I would rather bigger/ more blocks of skellies first.


Catapult:
The star of the show; hailed screaming skulls down onto the saurus/slann unit three times, bringing it down to about one rank plus the slann. Against the lizardmen and their damn cold-bloodedness, the Skulls of the Foe weren't much use, so in games versus lizards (or other ridiculous Ld armies) I probably won't bother.


The Liche Priest:
He had several magical items, none of which were used. From now on he'll only be taking a dispel scroll or heiretic jar, and nothing else. If I had a HLP I would give him the Plaques as better rolls would have helped every now and again...


Powder dice:
Or lack there of. This basically lost me the game; even after some awesome charges, I couldn't position my units where I needed them as I couldn't get any Urgencies through. Power dice, power dice, power dice; from now on I will do everything I can to increase the number I have.



If you have any competing ideas to what I have said I would lover to hear! Maybe I was just doing everything wrong and that is why my units sucked XP I know I wasted a lot of my points on magical garbage...


Anyway, as a result of this learning experience, I have come up with a new army list for 2000pts. Comments on the list would be great. I thought it best to post the list in this section because of all my ranting, so I hope that is okay!

The list:

1981pts
LORDS: 494
Tomb King
Light Armour, Hand Weapon,
Enchanted Shield, Dragonhelm,
Collar of Shapesh
High Liche Priest
Neffera’s Plaques of Mighty Incantations

HEROES: 235
Liche Priest
Icon Bearer
Light Armour, steed
Staff of Ravening

CORE: 474
29 Bow Skellies
Musician
29 Bow Skellies
Musician


SPECIAL: 598
24 Tomb Guard
Full command
Banner of the Undying Legion
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Scorpion

RARE: 180
Screaming Skull Catapult
Screaming Skull Catapult


The basic tactica is the skellies and TG lumber forward, the catapults pummel, and the Icon Bearer rides with the 3 Scorpions. I'd have like full units of 40 skellies, but couldn't squeeze the points...

The bearer/scorps would be deployed on the flank of my army, max move to engage as soon as possible, and rip through enemy units as a team. The bearer is to help stop the scorps from crumbling, and to give a little support with the staff of ravening or draw Dispel dice. Though thinking about it, he could probably do the same thing with the ruby ring... thoughts?

All in all I should have 12 'power' dice; TK: 2, HLP:6, LP: 2, SoR: 1, BotUL: 1, = 12


I have no idea if a list like this would work, but having a team of scorpions seems like a good idea... In a Grand army I could take 6!! Ah, the possibilities



Anyway, sorry for the rant, I hope I didn't expose my tactical inferiority too much

Cheers!

 

[Sectux]

Ok, so you have picked up some good points. I will let you know what i have learnt as well from my games:

Tomb Scorpions should be deployed against anything without warmachines. Otherwise you have to put pressure on them with something else. the scatter is not that bad, and dont forget that you do not have to charge on the turn they come out. move to the side of a unit and threaten its flank. they will have to reform and expose their flank to the rest of your army, or take a flank charge next turn, and not get 2 ranks attacking. When deploying them with the rest of your army, use them as hammer units. beside and slightly back from a block of skeletons, enough to get a flank charge in, but back enough to not take the charge. still - use them on their own. if you want to hit hard with 3 models, use Ushabti - they hit harder and cost less.

Skellies ARE awful. there is no getting around that. you need to maximise their shooting to get any use out of them. a unit of 40 skellingtons, with volley fire and 4 ranks of 10, will only kill 5 T3 models with no armour on average. Against any elite troops those odds drop to 2 at a time. just use them as road blocks to redirect an enemy if they are small units, or take them is mass numbers (25+) and magic the hell out of them. And I agree with moving them. But backwards. 2" each turn for a unit can equal a failed charge. Then you can charge them.

Tomb guard are solid. I have found that they are no match for an opponents elite units. Their best ability is to get the extra round of combat and roll some killing blows. the banner of the eye helps with this a lot. Give the character in them the Ironcurse icon to give the entire unit a ward save againd warmachines. Or mirage standard, to really annoy their shooting.

Light horsemen I have found should be used as harrasment troops. With only 7 of them, you probably would have been better of running straight past the enemy and shooting them continuously. they can reform for free, so a complete turn around is possible at the end of their move. If you can get more together (15+) then you can use them in combat. 3 ranks should be enough to disrupt after losses, and with a flank or rear charge, you should win combat. But i have found Heavy Cavalry are better suited to that. And salamanders are really annoying now. so don't get to down about that.

Chariots are one of those units that need a major rethink for us. They no longer can be used to charge in, Auto Break and roll over into the next enemy. Now we have to use them as harrassers. And at their current points cost they are hard to get their cost back. I have had limited sucess with them when adding in a Prince with the chariot of fire and either the mask of EEE! or Sword of striking, so that they can get a double move, and the vangard ability gets them in combat straight away. Again - they need to be used on the flank or rear to make sure the enemy does not get two ranks attacking, and the charge to get the impact hits. A nice tactic is to get around the flank, with one unit still within range of the LP, cast the spell, then reform past the enemy. A reform is allowed as long as no model moves DOUBLE its movement. Chariots cannot march, and so it is pefectly legal. again - this means they have to make a choice - go for the chariots and reform, exposing a flank to the rest of your army, or take the charge next turn and be stuck in combat for at least two turns. Until we get some news on having less than 5 models for a rank, i beleive that 4 chariots is probably the best number for the moment.

Catapults should now be a staple of every TK army that plans to take any shooting, and a LP with each one, or TP if you cant spare the points. The double shooting is a killer, and skulls of the foe is more often than not very worth it. Elves on LD 7 for a panic test is funny. and great when those hordes come at you.

In terms of characters, You are better off going fo Quantity over Quality. a naked LP in a unit will do just as good as a fully equiped one, and a TK or TP with light armour and a great weapon are killer additions to your unit. A HLP is also better off naked except with a ward save. You want these characters to upgrade your units. concentrate your magic on something you need to get off, either the catapult and skellies when the enemy approaches, or the TG and Scorps to get them an extra round of combat.
This also helps with the number of Power dice you get. And your staff and Banner work off your power dice roll, not like the old rules. so you can throw 2 or three dice into their cast. and you can use power dice to dispel and remains in play spell. I am running with at least 4 characters, 2 LP, 2 TK and a casket, plus the staff of ravening and banner of the undying legion. A HLP is great, but for his price i can get another TK, who gets two casts like the HLP, and is better in combet. And I need the combat assistance.

Out if our spells, i would say summoning is not worth it unless you have a free cast with nothing else to do. you cant get enough models back unlike vampires to make a difference against most armies, and anything that can survive the combat (Ushabti / Scorpions) is usually too far away or heals really slowly.

As for the list, what is the point of having an icon bearer run forwards with the scorpions. on a horse he can get one shotted by any unit (no look out sir), and is combat res the real thing that killed you in that game? One unit of 40 Anything will stop you dead in your tracks. Steadfast will always win against single models, even cavalry. Tomb kings are best suited now to single minded lists. Either take a shooting army that excels at that (2 SSC's, 2 units of bow skellies, enough dice to get every unit fireing twice) or a combat army that moves top fast to get everthing (Chariots, Cavalry, Scorpions and Ushabti, each backed by casters so everything can get that free move).
PS - point dont add up. Not enough Core- you need at least 25% as core. in a 2000 points list you need 500 points. and the staff is and arcane item - cannot be taken by anyone but Wizards.

One more thing. I you go for a shooting army. Take the Casket of souls. It costs the same as a decked out LP, but gives the LP toughness 10 agaainst shooting / magic. It effects any unit facing it, even those in combat, adds an extra -1 to enemy casting (Dont forget this, as a spell that fails to go off means they cant cast another spell with that wizard) andbest of all, gives the enemy an extra two dice to have to save to dispel it. even a heavy magic army like elves only get a maximum of 6 dispel dice. TK - 2, LP - 2, LP - 2, Casket - 2. Plus whatever bound spell you have. Cant stop them all! - this is the basis for all Tomb kings Armies. - "You cant stop them all"

Anyway - Rant over. And tactics are learnt from experience. If you dont try, you cannot learn. Look at every battle, see where you went wrong, but also where everything went right. Then you will see how to change your list.

 

[Marnepup]

The lesson learned? I will always deploy my scorps; it just isn't worth the risk, and that is just my opinion.

NOOOOOOOOOOO! The reason you take multiple scorpions is so that at least one will perform as intended. You get to deploy them after the enemy is done setting up, so you put them where they'll do the most damage....both/all of them. IF they all appear together without a bad scatter, so be it, you have overkill. But their purpose is to eat warmachines and other such nonsense without having to cross the table under fire first, and without being intercepted. Deploying them normally completely wastes their potential, especially since they're the only deepstriking unit I know of that can actually charge on arrival. Don't let one bad scatter teach you not to use ICFB, that's the wrong lesson to learn. The lesson that you should be learning is that you were supposed to deepstrike both of your scorpions, not split them up.

Secondly, every combat round I kept thinking 'damn, if only I had a bit more support in the combat, I could cream these suckers'. So now I will put my scorps together, and they will charge units together.

Yeah, your list was weak...the answer isn't flank charges from traditionally deployed scorpions, though, it's a better list!

The skellies:
I had these deployed in 2 ranks for max shootiness, and they stood on the spot the whole game. They were very........ poor. I got my first volley of the game off with Smiting, and cause a grand zero wounds on a saurus block. After that my opponent promptly laughed and didn't bother wasting his dispel dice on the unit for the rest of the game, saving them up for my urgencies and combat-smiting instead.

Again with drawing the wrong lesson from a bad list. 19 bowmen is pitiful. Let me play that lizard list with 60 bowmen, you'll see a very different outcome. 100 bowshots a turn will yield 33 hits. Against T3, that's 17 wounds, against T4, it's 11, against T5+, it's 5-6. Then, when the enemy gets across the board, a block of 30 skellies is a fantastic mudpit...and, with "step up," it actually does hand out a few wounds while pinning the enemy in place for you to flank/rear charge.

The entire game, they only killed about 4 saurus, out of at least 80 shots.

That's the problem..."at least 80 shots" the whole game. You should be throwing off more shots per turn than you did all game. If 80 shots killed 4 saurus, the 100 shots in my example would have killed five. Per turn. That's 20%+ of his saurus dead, just from bowfire, before he can get across the board. Then, you've got your TG fighting a block of 16 saurus while blocks of 30 skellies face fewer than ten (say your SSC killed two more from each unit) each. NOTHING TK has, except for TG and Ushabti, will stand up to a healthy block of saurus in melee. You have to attrit them by throwing a ridiculous number of dice at them before they get to you. 19 bowmen won't do the job...but 60 would.

also discovered that by standing still, even though I got more shooting in, I was a sitting duck, and I was easily outmanoeuvred. I have now decided that bows are a bonus, and should be treated as such. I've pumped up my unit to add more ranks, and will direct them as I would a normal skellie combat unit, and just use the shooting as I edge closer to the enemy to score a few bonus wounds.

Exactly. TK bowmen can't march, and moving normally doesn't affect their shooting, so of course you should take them in blocks that are big enough to handle melee, and keep them moving.

Also, 20 skellies just didn't cut it. They were charged by the three aforementioned GW-lizard monster things, and survived the first round. I pumped them back up with Summoning, but I could tell in two more combat rounds they would have been finished.

Yes, you need blocks of 30...they form up 10x3. Steadfastness doesn't matter to undead, so there's no upside in having ranks that can't fight...until you're winning well enough that having the extra ranks takes away enemy steadfastness so they can break....but you can combat reform from 10x3 into 5x6 when the time comes.

The Tomb Guard:
These guys were really solid; they didn't really do much in the way of killing stuff, but they didn't need to; their toughness was their best feature, keeping them alive from magic missiles, salamanders, and CC, so that when my TK sliced up a few saurus, I had enough ranks behind me to cause the saurus to break, even with their precious Slann's leadership

They really are great, aren't they? I disagree about them not killing anything, with "step up" and fighting from the second rank, they slip in a lot more killing blows than they used to. I'd happily throw 24 TG against 16 saurus with no characters in either unit....if there's a TK in the TG, I'd do the same thing with ANY lizard character on the other side.

The Horsemen:
My poor, poor horsemen. Due to unlucky positioning I had no choice but to charge them headlong into the unit of three salamanders, getting them killed in one round; at least it slowed the enemy down a bit.. sort of... Horsemen are too much of a gamble, and too hard to use effectively, so I won't be bothering again.

Horsemen are a gamble the same way that lottery tickets are a gamble...one time out of fourty, they pull their weight, and one time in fourty two million, they win the game for you.

The Chariots:
Were surprising... 3 basic chariots with the Icon of the Seeing Eye. The Icon was a WASTE and did not affect things at all. Never again. But the chariots took 3 volleys of poisoned darts and still held out. They ran a skink unit off the table and overran his skink priest. Despite earning their points back in that way, they earned them back doubly just by being a nuisance and distracting his skinks from the rest of my army, and even seemed threat enough for my opponent to start sending a saurus block that direction (who promptly chewed the chariots to bits, but still! It was worth the distraction!)

Chariots are ace, but I still fear they might be too flimsy. I will experiment using them, but I think I would rather bigger/ more blocks of skellies first.

I'm having trouble even understanding why you thought the eye was a good thing for the chariots...it belonged on the tomb guard! I think you used them the right way, though...they're a raiding unit, there to run off enemy fast cav, if there isn't any, and then force a disproportionate number of enemy points to react to them while trying to kill war machines, shooty units, and characters in the backfield. What they are not is the hammer that they were in 7th edition. Being unable to strip ranks or overcome steadfastness with a flank charge, they just don't work like they used to.

Catapult:
The star of the show; hailed screaming skulls down onto the saurus/slann unit three times, bringing it down to about one rank plus the slann. Against the lizardmen and their damn cold-bloodedness, the Skulls of the Foe weren't much use, so in games versus lizards (or other ridiculous Ld armies) I probably won't bother.

Next time, take two! Seriously, though, SSCs are awesome. If you're building special lists for specific foes, then of course SotF is optional, but for a take all comers list, it's worth the points.

The Liche Priest:
He had several magical items, none of which were used. From now on he'll only be taking a dispel scroll or heiretic jar, and nothing else. If I had a HLP I would give him the Plaques as better rolls would have helped every now and again...

Honestly, the only good items are plaques, kanopi, and staff of ravening. Plaques for rerolls, kanopi because RIP spells got a lot better and there are a lot more of them, and ravening for use of power dice. I wouldn't bother with a scroll or brooch, though. Anything worth dispelling will be cast with irresistible force 90% of the time.

Powder dice:
Or lack there of. This basically lost me the game; even after some awesome charges, I couldn't position my units where I needed them as I couldn't get any Urgencies through. Power dice, power dice, power dice; from now on I will do everything I can to increase the number I have.

Wait...you were using power dice for incantations? Wrong, wrong, wrong. Incantations don't use power dice. Only bound spells do. No wonder your magic phase sucked. If you're using 2-3 bound spells per turn, plus your incantations, there's no way the enemy can dispel more than a third of what you're throwing his way. Load up on BotUL, ruby ring of ruin, casket, and staff of ravening, and you'll obliterate in the magic phase!

I'll look at your list in a separate response.

 

[Marnepup]

The list:

1981pts
LORDS: 494
Tomb King
Light Armour, Hand Weapon,
Enchanted Shield, Dragonhelm,
Collar of Shapesh
High Liche Priest
Neffera’s Plaques of Mighty Incantations

HEROES: 235
Liche Priest
Icon Bearer
Light Armour, steed
Staff of Ravening

CORE: 474
29 Bow Skellies
Musician
29 Bow Skellies
Musician


SPECIAL: 598
24 Tomb Guard
Full command
Banner of the Undying Legion
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Scorpion

RARE: 180
Screaming Skull Catapult
Screaming Skull Catapult


The basic tactica is the skellies and TG lumber forward, the catapults pummel, and the Icon Bearer rides with the 3 Scorpions. I'd have like full units of 40 skellies, but couldn't squeeze the points...

The bearer/scorps would be deployed on the flank of my army, max move to engage as soon as possible, and rip through enemy units as a team. The bearer is to help stop the scorps from crumbling, and to give a little support with the staff of ravening or draw Dispel dice. Though thinking about it, he could probably do the same thing with the ruby ring... thoughts?

All in all I should have 12 'power' dice; TK: 2, HLP:6, LP: 2, SoR: 1, BotUL: 1, = 12


I have no idea if a list like this would work, but having a team of scorpions seems like a good idea... In a Grand army I could take 6!! Ah, the possibilities



Anyway, sorry for the rant, I hope I didn't expose my tactical inferiority too much

Cheers!

Your TK's equipment leaves much to be desired. 8th edition gives access to AWESOME common magic armors. At the same time, TK initiative is so low that they're "nearly always strikes last." Might as well give him a great weapon for S7. I'd give him the armor of silvered steel, maybe the dawnstone, or maybe the 4+ invulnerable save item, and a great weapon. Your version is illegal anyway, you can only have one piece of magic armor, you have the dragonhelm AND a magic shield.

No problem with the HLP, but I might give him the 4+ invulnerable save or the collar of shashep even if it meant dropping the plaques.

The LP...is he naked or what? It looks like you gave the icon bearer the staff of ravening, and I don't know if that's legal. But a mounted LP with staff of ravening sounds pretty sweet! I wouldn't take an IB, I'd take a TP....with GW.

Your two units of bowmen look just right (other than 29 being a crooked number, hehe)!

TG looks great. I use the EotSE, but BotUL is a common, and very good, alternative.

Three scorpions, fantastic. Please, try ICFB deployment for all three of them, and use them redundantly. One ICFB unit dedicated to a task is unreliable, but 2-3 virtually guarantees success. And with M7, after they're done killing things in the enemy backfield, they can easilly get back to your side of the board for a supporting rear charge.

Two skullapults, perfect.

I don't like the plan for the three scorps and IB. They don't remove steadfastness, they don't remove rank bonus to combat resolution, and I honestly don't see how the IB stops crumble on the scorpions.

Don't lumber forward with the skellies, there's nothing gained by rushing into melee, and nothing lost by getting an extra turn or two of shooting before melee.

I'd take the ruby ring over the staff...it's fewer, but stronger attacks...and it's much cheaper than the staff.

Anyway, with BotUL and the ruby ring, you can throw as many power dice as you want/have, not just one, but remember that if you get two sixes, you lose the item (it still works with irresistible force, this time, but then basically crumbles). With the incantations, you don't use power dice... TK magic is extra powerful because your incantations don't come out of the power dice pool, but bound items work the same way that they do for other armies...so if you get a 4 and a 2 on the winds of magic roll, your opponent gets 4 DD...and you get 10D6 worth of incantations PLUS 6D6 to spend (max) on your bound spells...throw jsut two at the ring/staff and two at the banner...and it's 14 dice against 4.

 

[Vallah]

Hi floyd.

Sectuxand Marnepup have given some good advice and where we might differ is mostly down to personal choice. Rather than discect each post I'll just offer a couple of generalisations that I think will help you out no end.

Simply put, you're not using your units to their best effect.

For example, you mentioned how dissappointed you were with the performace of your archers but that is simply because you were shooting at the wrong target. Try not to shoot at whetever happens to be nearest or look the scariest -shoot at what your bow dudes will be most effective against. In this case that single mistake meant that not only were your archers wasted, but you also lost a scorpion later on to 'just ten skinks'... or 'arrow fodder' as you might like to think of them.

On a broader note you're running a very defensive list but trying to use it too agressively. You don't have to charge in just because something is in range (as with the scorp, cavalry etc) -especially if said combat is going to be a foregone conclusion that's not in your favour. A quick bit of mental arithmatic to count up the expected number of wounds dealt by each side is your best guide at first, but eventually you'll get a feel for what you can and can't handle with any given unit.

I hope you found those points constructive floyd, and are not discouraged. TKs are by far the hardest army to get to grips with IMHO because you need to get a lot of little things right for seemingly anything much to go well. It takes time and experience but that makes them very rewarding to play.

 

[Sectux]

Hi floyd.


I hope you found those points constructive floyd, and are not discouraged. TKs are by far the hardest army to get to grips with IMHO because you need to get a lot of little things right for seemingly anything much to go well. It takes time and experience but that makes them very rewarding to play.

Well said. Don't get discouraged, as a well used Tomb KinG army can make a mockery of the opponent.

Keep trying, and at the moment, large blocks win.

Marnepup, when you say 60 skellies, you mean 2 units of 30 right? As the maximum unit size is 40... Just had to check. Otherwise, I am glad I joined this forum. Great ideas and tactics coming out here, things I would not have thought of!

 

[floyd_revolution]

Wow, lots of great feedback! Thanks so much to everyone for spending your time.


I have reconsidered the whole Icon bearer-on-a-horse tactic and taken the bearer from the list. I thought the extra point of avoided crumble due to combat res would help make the scorpions extra-resilient, but if the bearer can't last then there is no point.

I wasn't sure about the staff of ravening either, so thanks for the clarification; I thought it was a bit strange giving it to a bearer

Also I didn't know bound items worked like that now! I was doing my incantations properly, but I was only giving 1D6 to each bound item. Now that I know how to use those properly I should be able to draw more dispel dice out of my opponent.


To Marnepup, I will trust your advice and deepstrike all the scorpions together. Though just to check, is the point to deepstrike them all to the exact same location/ target? I'll play a few games and see how it goes. My list was bad, and yes you are right, I shouldn't base my judgements on the one game!


I still don't think I can use the horsemen or chariots competently enough to want to take them just yet, and I also have trouble working out how to fit them into the army style. As Sectux said, it is better to go all-shooting oriented or all-combat, which is something I can see the logic in, and I think that is something which failed me in the other list. It would be fun to have a fast-hitting combat army, but it seems so hard to construct a Core from just horses (which I am still hesitant about) and chariots, without resorting to padding with skellies... And if you have to have skellies then I would be inclined to take archers over hw/shield, so that leaves me a little at odds.

I think for now I will go with the two units of 30ish bow-skellies. With the accumulated shots, as Marnepup pointed out, things should hopefully improve, and I will follow Vallah's sound advice and target things the skellies are capable of handling and making a difference on, rather than the scary things.

Also to Vallah, I think you are right in that I was playing too aggressively; I am somewhat impatient and always want to jump into the fray (something which makes me a very volatile Dnd player!), and because of that I don't always think my options through as thoroughly as I should. To be honest, I never really thought of moving my Tomb scorpion to the Saurus' flank (!) as Sectux suggested. In fairness, the terrain was very tight and I probably wouldn't have been able to, but still, I should have thought of it at least! I am going to write a palm-card or two with some little tactical reminders, so that when I get lost in the heat of battle I have something to keep me from making stupid decisions



Focussing on the list, I am still pretty happy with my special and rare choices overall. I will keep Skulls of the Foe in mind when versing different enemies, but I am not sure whether I will always be able to find the points...

For my core, I have bumped the number of skellies up by two per unit, just to make them legal (an oversight I made before, thanks Sectux).


The main decisions I am having trouble making are with my lords and heroes... After everyone's advice, I am just a little too unsure of what to take to fully compliment what I have. I have 716 spare points which I can (but don't have to spend all of) on lords and heroes. At 2000pts, how many kings/prince/LPs do I really need?

I am able to afford a Tomb King with 50pts-ish items (I was thinking simply GW and Armour of Silvered Steel), a Tomb Prince, 2 Lps, and still have 200ish points which could be spent on a Casket and a few extra items...

The Tomb King would definately go in my TG unit, and I am fairly set, unless otherwise convinced, on having him in the army. But for the rest, just because I can afford it isn't good enough reason to take it, as I found out. Looking at that Tomb Prince, I don't really know what to do with him...

If I took out the casket and the prince I could afford a HLP, and have 70pts left over to buy items. Are three priests, one of which is a HLP, total overkill?

What do you think I should spend the points on? (If I have enough spare points I could add skull of the foe, or boost the archer units a little more maybe?)

Another quick question; which would be more effective on the TG unit; the BotUL, or IotSE? They are both useful for different reasons; I am leaning toward the Banner simply for it's Bound, but if I end up with lots of magic casters it might not be needed for that... Thoughts?


Thanks again to everyone for their insightful responses! I am definitely not discouraged at all, but I AM feeling more confident now! I wouldn't want to play an army other than Tomb Kings, even if I lost every game I ever played with them... Though I am sure I will win some

 

[Enigmatik1]

Wow, lots of great feedback! Thanks so much to everyone for spending your time.


I have reconsidered the whole Icon bearer-on-a-horse tactic and taken the bearer from the list. I thought the extra point of avoided crumble due to combat res would help make the scorpions extra-resilient, but if the bearer can't last then there is no point.

The Icon Bearer only really has a place in a TK list for two reasons:

a) You're running the Dunce Cap (aka the Wizarding Hat) to protect your King from failing a dum-dum check.
or
b) You're running an aggressive list and don't want to risk your units pursuing fleeing units into unfavorable situations.

Otherwise, don't bother.

To Marnepup, I will trust your advice and deepstrike all the scorpions together. Though just to check, is the point to deepstrike them all to the exact same location/ target? I'll play a few games and see how it goes. My list was bad, and yes you are right, I shouldn't base my judgements on the one game!

Our army has the steepest learning curve in the game. Don't fret it all comes with time. For my part, I like to deploy one Scorpion normally and bury another to threaten a warmachine. I used to bury both, but stopped at the end of 7th to give myself the extra deployment. I got tired of being done deploying 15 minutes before my opponents (or an hour before in the case of Skaven).

I still don't think I can use the horsemen or chariots competently enough to want to take them just yet, and I also have trouble working out how to fit them into the army style. As Sectux said, it is better to go all-shooting oriented or all-combat, which is something I can see the logic in, and I think that is something which failed me in the other list. It would be fun to have a fast-hitting combat army, but it seems so hard to construct a Core from just horses (which I am still hesitant about) and chariots, without resorting to padding with skellies... And if you have to have skellies then I would be inclined to take archers over hw/shield, so that leaves me a little at odds.

I personally see no redeeming qualities in the horsemen, but that's just me. Chariots, I still love but I stack the deck to make this unit very killy. However, the most efficient expenditure of core points is probably in the core skeletons. Personally, I didn't sign up to be a TK general to run a magic gunline so I only ever field 1 unit of 30 in conjunction with a unit of 30 HW/S skeletons with stacked to the gills with items to restore models to the unit. Our armies weak spot is the core and most of the power armies in 8E don't have that issue.

I think for now I will go with the two units of 30ish bow-skellies. With the accumulated shots, as Marnepup pointed out, things should hopefully improve, and I will follow Vallah's sound advice and target things the skellies are capable of handling and making a difference on, rather than the scary things.

Despite my aversion to the idea, this is the best set up possible currently. Just be sure to keep the appropriate characters close enough to incant extra shots for these units and the SSCs.

Also to Vallah, I think you are right in that I was playing too aggressively; I am somewhat impatient and always want to jump into the fray (something which makes me a very volatile Dnd player!), and because of that I don't always think my options through as thoroughly as I should. To be honest, I never really thought of moving my Tomb scorpion to the Saurus' flank (!) as Sectux suggested. In fairness, the terrain was very tight and I probably wouldn't have been able to, but still, I should have thought of it at least! I am going to write a palm-card or two with some little tactical reminders, so that when I get lost in the heat of battle I have something to keep me from making stupid decisions

Good call. The list you designed was extremely defensive to me. All you need to do is curb your aggression and play within the confines of the list. That's one of the harder adjust to in Warhammer, I think.

The main decisions I am having trouble making are with my lords and heroes... After everyone's advice, I am just a little too unsure of what to take to fully compliment what I have. I have 716 spare points which I can (but don't have to spend all of) on lords and heroes. At 2000pts, how many kings/prince/LPs do I really need?

I am able to afford a Tomb King with 50pts-ish items (I was thinking simply GW and Armour of Silvered Steel), a Tomb Prince, 2 Lps, and still have 200ish points which could be spent on a Casket and a few extra items...

The Tomb King would definately go in my TG unit, and I am fairly set, unless otherwise convinced, on having him in the army. But for the rest, just because I can afford it isn't good enough reason to take it, as I found out. Looking at that Tomb Prince, I don't really know what to do with him...

If I took out the casket and the prince I could afford a HLP, and have 70pts left over to buy items. Are three priests, one of which is a HLP, total overkill?

What do you think I should spend the points on? (If I have enough spare points I could add skull of the foe, or boost the archer units a little more maybe?)

There is no easy answer for this, honestly. The only constant in TK lists seems to be everyone runs a King. Some of us run one, others two (giving on the Wizarding hat). For instance, I only run 1 LP in my lists up to 2.5k, with a second only being added if I'm running a Casket of Souls. I personally feel they are a waste of points and rarely do anything positive for me in my games because they tend to facilitate a more defensive game plan. Being an aggressive list hold-out, I prefer having a King or Prince in every pertinent unit and allow my Hierophant to float between units as needed.

Tomb Kings and Princes don't tend to need a lot of gear to function in general. You should be spending points on these characters to give them specific purposes, i.e. the Tar Pit King w/ Spear of Antarhak, Scorpion Armor, Shield, etc. Liche Priests are a bit more problematic since other than a Ward Save item, they don't necessarily need anything else either however additional bound items are almost a necessity depending upon your opponent. The Kanopi is a no-brainer against Ogres, for instance and the Staff of Ravening is useful against Elves. The Jar and Plaques both bring more dice advantage to the list, but the Jar especially isn't as crucial as it has been in years past.

Another quick question; which would be more effective on the TG unit; the BotUL, or IotSE? They are both useful for different reasons; I am leaning toward the Banner simply for it's Bound, but if I end up with lots of magic casters it might not be needed for that... Thoughts?

Thanks again to everyone for their insightful responses! I am definitely not discouraged at all, but I AM feeling more confident now! I wouldn't want to play an army other than Tomb Kings, even if I lost every game I ever played with them... Though I am sure I will win some

This is another one of those personal things. For me, I always put the BotUL in a skeleton unit because they need all the help they can get staying on the board. I also almost always put at least a Prince in this unit with the Spear of Antarhak. I've had this unit stand up to charging Dragon Princes, Saurus Warriors and Plague Monks most recently and not go poof. This works to my advantage because my opponents have come to expect this within this unit and now generally avoid it because it's not worth the effort to try to remove it. Mind you, this unit is sometimes naked...but the thought that "oh God, it's that annoying unit that won't go away again...<avoid>" can sometimes make your opponent put their units in bad spots or make them change their plans on the fly...either are good in my book.

I still keep the IotSE on my chariot bus. That's because I don't want my 7 attack Tomb King flubbing his rolls! You'd also be surprised how much damage the rest of the unit can do when they're hitting on 3s and not 4s against standard infantry. Keep them away from things like Phoenix Guard or Chaos Warriors and they're still pretty good.

TG are a bit harder to give a banner to for me. Since the other two obligatory banners are often taken in my lists, I go with the Razor Standard as my default banner, with Eternal Flame against Skaven, Vampire Counts and Wood Elves. I've often thought about actually running an Icon Bearer in my TG unit so that I can stack the Icon of Rakaph and the Ranger Standard in the same unit just for the amusement factor of seeing this unit making hairpin turns and cruising through terrain. I haven't gotten around to it yet though.

 

[Jarlil]

Do watch your points totals though. I believe with 8th Core has to have a minimum of 500 pts invested in a 2k list. Some opponents might ding you for it.

 

[Ashannon]

Thoughts on the IB

Howdy all,

I notice a lot of apathy towards to ol Icon Bearer. I find personally that he's really useful in larger point games to hang out with a unit of Tomb Guard. The Ld re-rolls, the one less crumbling and the banner/items he can use are all nice little bonuses to a strong TG unit. Add in full command and a TK for extra fun and excitement.

Also, I use him against some armies (especially any army using High Queen Khalida) for the Standard of the Sands. Forcing the enemy to move a piddly distance on their first turn absolutely cripples some armies. The -1 Ld combined with the SSC's SotF (You did take the double catapult with the SotF right?) can send some armies screaming off the board.

So in smaller point games the IB is about as useful as a one legged man at an ass-kicking contest, but in some larger games it becomes a whole bunch better.

 

[Vallah]

i only run 1 lp in my lists up to 2.5k, with a second only being added if i'm running a casket of souls. I personally feel they are a waste of points and rarely do anything positive for me in my games

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Enigmatik1]

Couldn't agree more.

Every time I see an LP spam list with say, 3 LPs, I cringe. I can't help but think to myself...how are you going to beat anyone in CC with that many LPs. Everyone knows TKs and TPs win combats for our infantry...why not take more of them!

 

[Vallah]

Yeah, me too. Liche spamming is fast becoming a pet hate and I suspect it's mostly a symptom of list copying and adding them because everyone else seems to feel it's the 'done thing' -not because they actually need them.

If you're playing the army to its (8th edition!) strangths then there is simply no good reason to do this because princes can do everything a lich needs to and they are a significant asset in combat rather than a liabilty like the liches.

 

[JL177]

I too, loathe using LPs. They are just a complete waste of points IMO; they need to be cheaper. The only thing they offer over a prince is the healing spell and the rarely used magic missile. The extra D6 for the incantation is hardly anything since since they get no bonus added to the role. The 12" range on the priest is nice, but lots of times I find 12" to not make a difference; most of the time I just cast on the unit I'm in or I let the flying HLP go where he needs to go. I usually feel my HLP and the BoUL is enough healing for my army; I also like using the healing spear on my king sometimes too. The only LP that ever gets used for me is the one sitting on the casket. I used to like the LP+staff on a steed, but since the fast cavalry rule change (the one where if a charcter joins they lose fast cavalry), even that has lost its luster for me.

I'll take a prince over a LP any day.

 

[Enigmatik1]

I too, loathe using LPs. They are just a complete waste of points IMO; they need to be cheaper. The only thing they offer over a prince is the healing spell and the rarely used magic missile. The extra D6 for the incantation is hardly anything since since they get no bonus added to the role. The 12" range on the priest is nice, but lots of times I find 12" to not make a difference; most of the time I just cast on the unit I'm in or I let the flying HLP go where he needs to go. I usually feel my HLP and the BoUL is enough healing for my army; I also like using the healing spear on my king sometimes too. The only LP that ever gets used for me is the one sitting on the casket. I used to like the LP+staff on a steed, but since the fast cavalry rule change (the one where if a charcter joins they lose fast cavalry), even that has lost its luster for me.

I'll take a prince over a LP any day.

Pretty much. The issue for me is that I only ever have 4 real units on the table at up to 2.5k and the King or Prince in said unit are what carries it. Only the Tomb Guard are reliable enough on their own merits to warrant omitting a character, but even then I can't bring myself to do so. Every non-construct unit has a combat character in it in my lists. However, I'm still not comfortable putting my Hierophant on the Casket so I'm finding myself (sadly) not using it as much.

 

[Marnepup]

Me, too...I take one each TK, TP, LP, HLP. The LP mans the casket, while the HLP is there for the 3D6 incantations...between the HLP going second-to-last and the light of death, absolutely everything the king, prince, and LP throw off goes unchallenged because the enemy's saving his dice for the end. And if he doesn't, and kills an early spell, there aren't any dice left to stop the HLP from duplicating what he dispelled. If I could man the casket with a skelly bowman musician, though, I would! And if I weren't so in love with the casket, I'd take three princes instead of casket/priest and one prince. Of course...I only have three units and my king leads the TG, so I'd have more fighty characters than infantry units...

 

[floyd_revolution]

Coolness; I just played a 2000pt game against Skaven. At the start I was severely outnumbered (who would have thunk it??) and I thought i was done for, but I ended up absolutely obliterating my opponent. Probably the best win I have ever had in warhammer. This is the list I used:


2001pts
LORDS
Tomb King
ASS
GW
221

HEROES
Tomb Prince
GW, L/a
Tomb Prince
GW, L/a
Liche Priest
Ruby Ring of Ruin
352

CORE
30 Archers
Musician
30 Archers
Musician
3 Chariots
610

SPECIAL
24 Tomb Guard
Full Command
BotUL
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Scorpion
598

RARE
SSC
Skulls of the Foe
SSC
Skulls of the Foe


The two princes were in the skeleton units, the King in the Tomb Guard unit, and the priest meandering around the catapults. My opponent had 2 slave units of 25, two clan rat units of 25, a unit of 25 stormvermin, 3 rat ogres, a unit of 25plague monks, with 6 plague wind rate things; 20 great rats, 2 swarms, two gatling guns, a warlock engineer, grey seer, a hero-level rat, two skirmisher units of 10, plus two units of 3 skirmishers which tunnelled... I think that was everything...

I found in magic I performed very underwhelmingly; I got one smiting off on a ssc, and a few urgencies in, but that was it. The BotUL was great, and kept the unit strong. The Tomb Guard unit took a charge from a skirmisher unit, the swarms, the plague wind globadiers, and half a unit of plague monks, and basically sat there and laughed, whilst also taking shots from warp lightning. I finished the game with a 20-strong unit thanks to the banner.

I didn't lose a single combat. Not only that, I won every single combat on the first round (except for the tomb guard unit which was surrounded).

I concentrated my fire with the bows, using volley fire, and took out lots of slaves, and a handful of clan rats, and then in combat the two units cleaned up two units of slaves and two units of clan rats between them (the princes came in handy there).

On turn one my catapults pummelled the plague monks reducing the unit to half, and on 2nd turn i got one hit on the stormvermin unit, and they fled off the board along with the hero who was in the unit.

Towards the end I had basically wiped out half the board; on one side I had my 3 chariots, 3 scorpions, an almost fully-ranked unit of skellie archers, all sweeping around, and on the other side I had a prince and handful of skellies, and my king and Tomb Guard unit. All my units were poised to swamp (yes, I was swamping skaven...) his one remaining ogre unit, and his grey seer.

He found it very hard to manouvre because of so many units, and I feel I capitalised on that a little, being able to take out units one at a time, and get a few pursuits into fresh enemy. I think he used his ogres very poorly and they didn't do anything the entire game, which was a shame, as I was curious to see how i would fare against them. They were headed towards my tomb guard, but then he wheeled them away for some reason.

One of his units of 3 tunnelers killed the crew on one catapult, while his seer lightninged my other catapult to pieces, but by then they had served their purpose. Those same 3 tunnellers then proceeded to kill my hierophant.... Which didn't matter because I passed every single leadership test from then on thanks to all the princes on the board.


The 3 scorpions all struck the same spot. I think 1 was effectively wasted; but the security was nice as they were pretty much guaranteed to land where I wanted them. Next time I might put one of them elsewhere and see how it works out though.

The Liche Priest just was not enough; I struggled to get any spells off; if I had, I would have been even more dangerous. I think next time I will instead try and fit a LHP for certain; the extra dice would tip the balance in my favour for sure.

It would have been nice to have a hero in a chariot, but maybe not at 2000pts, as I couldn't bear to take a hero from one of the units; they were just too great with princes and kings in them.

That is all.

 

[Marnepup]

You definitely didn't take enough magic...the magic diffence between your list and mine is that I do take an HLP (with plaques!), I take the casket for my LP, and I take one less prince. You were throwing five weak incantations a turn and two bound spells. I throw six incantations, but two of them are 3D6, so its a lot tougher to stop, and in addition to the same two bound spells, I'm throwing off the light of death at 2D6. So even though I only have two more spells per turn than you, it's seven more dice of spells, and most opponents will take 2-3 dispel dice off the top for the light of death, so virtually everything else gets through.

 

[Sectux]

I would have to agree. a LHP is nigh on mandatory for me now, even to the expense of a nasty Tomb king. It just makes your magic phase a whole lot more unstoppable. a total of 6 dice from 1 model... even with a high magic dispel roll (IE 6) they only have enough to stop him, plus maybe 2 for channelling... add then they might save 2 for the casket, and you have some unstopped magic going on. We cannot play with a weak magic phase, and either we load up on bound spells (Which there are not many) or hit them with a LHP.

My army consists of 1 TK, 1 LHP, and a LP on the casket, plus at least 2 bound items (Ruby ring / Kanopi, and undying banner). this enables you to load 3 dice in each, as a double 6 is rare on 3 dice, let alone 2.

I might take the plaques one day, but right now i'm not 100% how i would fit them into the army.

 

[floyd_revolution]

Yes, I totally agree, LHP from now on.

I was going to take the casket, and my list originally had it, but my opponent/friend had this strange notion that it is broken and cheesy, so I decided to change it because I am kind (gullible??), and because I wasn't up for hearing complaints all game...

I think I will make two lists; one which uses the casket (afterall, I've ordered all these pieces to make one :S) and LHP; and one which just uses a LHP, and see what works for me. I think for that game a LHP was all I needed to get my magic through.

It was a bit of a pain during the game because his grey seer was lvl 4, which meant his dispel dice were more like dispel scrolls against my princes...