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I Expect the Inquisition
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Welcome back to my Reckless Predictions on the future of the IG (Codex unseen).
If you've missed my other installments they are here:

Part One: (December):
Part Two: (January):
Part Three: (March) Tanks without Number

Edits in BLUE due to new info:

And now the Fast Attack slots...

The Fast Attack slot, (aka we don't want to sell the Nerfhound anymore):
The Hellhound went up in price. And according to rumors, lost 12" off its range. This means you have a fast attack option that must always get into charge range in order to fire once... for 5 points more than before.

Of the other two Hounds, the poison one seems to have so much potential until you realize it has the same problem.

The Devil Dog (Melta-Blaster) seems nifty though. Not that Guard is going to need a single-shot small-blast multi-melta for 120 points, but we will try to make it work. Still, you have to get within 12" to pop a Landraider or a Russ. I really want this to be great. But I just can't see it. This is not our Marine Speeder or Attack bike. It is a rolling hull-down screener for the better tanks behind it, but with enough of a gun to make it a target.

The Fast Attack slot, (aka, We just made a new sentinel kit!):
The rumored Spearhead Sentinel is apparently a fast choice. This makes me incredibly sad since it was an auto-selection in the Elite slot. Now it competes with it's weaker kin and also the Valkyrie/Vendetta.

Depending on the points, these might very well be the better choice for your Fast Attack needs. Heavy Plasma walkers that can hide in cover and have AV12... Like I said all depends on the points!

The Fast Attack Slot (aka, We made a new $58model!):
The Valk looks good. The Vendetta looks good. I'm not sold of squadroning them, but we'll see. They are Glass Cannons, but I'm not ready to say you are always better off with the sentinels... points again.

They might also be mandatory if you insist on dropping in Stormtroopers. In which case it is a lot of points for a strategy that worked better for half the points in our old codex.

The Fast Attack Slot (aka, I stepped in what?):
The only word on Rough Riders is that they don't have power weapons anymore. Is they anything else to be said? OK, one thing, IF this is true, then they wouldn't be worth it even if they were free. Fast attack has only 3 slots and they wouldn't be worth their killpoint liability.


The Elite Slot (aka, Are Storm Troopers or Penal Legion squads the new Possessed?):
Storm Troopers: 16 point suicide drop troops (that apparently require a Valk). ZOMG AP THREE! doesn't seem so hot now. I will truly miss my Drop Troop Veteran assassin squads. And since all rumors indicate that these can't be troops, they also don't have the utility that platoon drop squads had. So what do they do now, other than make marines slightly concerned? Well, they might have some uses, but certainly not what they did before. Not for those points.


Penal Legionnaires: You get 1 of 3 powers, each is sufficiently different that you can't necessarily count on these to be part of your overall plan. Swinging from "Might be useful in melee" to "Shoots a little better" are sufficiently different that I'm not sure I will ever take these unless the are diiiirt cheap and I already have redundancy at all roles.

Still, everyone will take them for a spin at least once, unlike possessed, which were the Kings of Wasted Points until Flash Gits cam along.

PS: They might turn out great, if the rule turn out different than we've heard... But they still won't score, so they better be great. Woah! These guys are being reported as TROOPS! So, if they really do have something like stubborn and are troops AND are only 80 points, they might very well be useful as runners for the objectives

The Elite Slot (aka, headaches all around!):
The psychic choice looks really nifty. Like everything else, it depends on points. Death rays and leadership draining are really good abilities. Too bad they are in such weak bodies. Zoogrot gets 30 T4 body guards. We get a guy who shoots 1d3 of us if we fail a peril of the warp check. Which is more Orky?

The Elite Slot (aka, we really can't let Guard actually have a countercharge unit):
3 Ogryns for 130 points and 40 for each additional. No power weapon, no fleet, bad guns. So once again we are faced with the option to buy Ogryns that are only slightly better for the points than regular platoon squads point-for-point, wound-for-wound.

They better have Feel No Pain and at least one more decent rule. They have no offense and don't score.

The Elite Slot (I might as well talk about ratlings):
I have no idea about points or what the "Snacks" rule will mean. But right now the Elite slot is looking pretty thin... If they are cheap enough, BS4 sniper rifles can have a their place.

The Elite Slot (Oh yeah Vets!):
So, no idea on points yet (I'm getting sick of that caveat). But they will probably still infiltrate and outflank. I'll miss my drop troops dearly but these guy might still have a place in my army since Stormies are looking overpriced.
The rumor mill moved these guys to Troops. SO Elites got weaker, BUT, we have outflanking scoring units that can take decent weapons and have BS4? *faints*

The Elite Choice (ADRIAN!):
Sly Marbo: The Guard gets a Callidus. I hope this is true, since it could make up for the loss of drop vets. Who knows though. T3 and 2 wounds on a single model probably won't kill enough.

On to the Heavies...
 

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Mr Commisar to you
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not sure about your putting of troops in codex options. a lot of what you have said is dependant on things that well may never be. And what idiot told you hunting lances were no longer power weapons? I understand oyu are trying to cover all rumours but id take that one with half a ships worth of salt including the captains salt celler.

The thing with the options that are in the codex is that it is an army as whole. each individual unit may not seem good but combine a valk dropping stormies with a hellhound rush up the other side (say banewolf or two?) then marines arent going to know where to look.

Going back to my first point, all of the things said about these are on unconfirmed or dubious rumours. I do think altogether the new codex is going to be very nice to use.

A
 

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I Expect the Inquisition
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
I have to admit, I think the Rough Rider rumor about not having power weapons is probably BS. The only reason to do it is if they decide not to release RR models anymore. But with the new Rough Rider character, that seems silly. Maybe he is necessary to make Rough Riders work.

I have to admit, I haven't really paid attention to the Character rumors since they are so varied it is hard to plan for.
 

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I saw the rumour about the lances not being power weapons on the warseer forum by someone who said they saw the codex, but that has been disputed by others too (as with a few other things, lol).

The warseer rumours also say that the penal legion and veteran squads are troops choices, not elites (according to the summary there), with a penal legion squad the same points as a normal guardsmen squad will cost. They also have said stormtroopers have baseline deepstrike, so it doesn't seem like the valkyrie is mandatory.

I agree with you on the ogryns though, there new stats made them look pretty good, but at the stated points cost just seems to much, although they might still be fun at times.
 

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I agree with most of the stuff, but have some thoughts.



RR are now being said to *ignore armor* on the charge (and still S5 I5) on their first charge, and they also get frag/krak grenades and laspistol & CCW, and still cost 11pts. So hopefully they are still useful :D


Vets are said to be a TROOP choice and cost 70pts for 10. BS4 and can take a 30pt upgrade to either give them all meltabombs (and one democharge), all carapace, or infiltrate/movethoughcover. Vets that are troops is awesome, and BS4 unit with 3 SW and a HW for 70 pts is great.

Penal Legion are said to be TROOPS as well, and their rolled abilities all seem at least somewhat useful. 1-2 = Assault 2 lasguns, 3-4 Fleet & Furious Charge, 5-6 Rending. And they are Stubbon.

Ratlings are said to be BS4, stealth and infiltrate for only 10pts each. but are also said to have lost the ability to go to ground when they fail a morale test...

Overall are ELITES look really weak :( ST, Ogryns are both overpriced, Ratlings might have potential, but at leat the Psykers look solid (albeit fragile).
 

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Rumors I read said that Hardened Vets are 80 points for a squad of 10, so same price they were in the last codex. Though perhaps I've missed a 70-point per squad rumor.

Thank god Rough Riders aren't losing their power weapon lances on the charge. Fast Attack is looking less impressive now, with Valkyries and Vendettas operating as true squadrons, Hellhounds getting both a nerf AND a price increase, and the Bane Wolf requring you to be at point blank range. Sentinels are decent, but boy it would have been nice to have the Heavy Sentinels in the Elites slot. Given the slim pickings there, they'd have almost been a no-brainer choice.

But at least Sly Marbo is rumored to be an Elites choice, so he gives us an option besides Ratlings to use. No wonder they decided to allow us to take tank squadrons in our heavy support section--they made Elites and most of Fast Attack functionally worthless.
 

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If Vendettas are actually 130 points w/ 3 TL LC and Scout (and can carry 12 men), then they just became one of the best units in our codex. Honestly, a 3 LC HWS is 105, if you can get a Vendetta for 25more points, it will be in every list.

Being able to make a 24" Scout move (which gives 4+ cover) into the far flank of the enemy, and then nail side armor (which will no longer be in cover if you are smartly) with 3 TL LC on your 1st turn... and then when it is near the end of the game, make a 24" dash for an objective (since you are carrying an infantry squad).

Honestly, it would be sick.
 

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Mr Commisar to you
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And Boxant wins the cookie. the valks are insanely fast and can drop Ap3 stormies in their wake before spamming fire into an enemy (valks can 36" and do this on first turn)
Now add lascans

I think the idea of saying you can do them in squadrons and giving them viable competition was a brilliant idea as you then are forced to choose between effeciency for your valks or numbers.

A
 

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Being able to make a 24" Scout move (which gives 4+ cover) into the far flank of the enemy, and then nail side armor (which will no longer be in cover if you are smartly) with 3 TL LC on your 1st turn... and then when it is near the end of the game, make a 24" dash for an objective (since you are carrying an infantry squad).

Honestly, it would be sick.
You will not benefit from the 4+ cover from moving flat out. Since the scout move happens before the game "starts". If you claim that bonus, you'd also have to abide by the "vehicle moving and shooting rules" and moving 24" does not allow you to fire any weapons. :)

But yes, if its 130 pts I think I will be fielding 1 or 2 (or maybe 3 depending)

cheers :)
 

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You will not benefit from the 4+ cover from moving flat out. Since the scout move happens before the game "starts". If you claim that bonus, you'd also have to abide by the "vehicle moving and shooting rules" and moving 24" does not allow you to fire any weapons. :)

But yes, if its 130 pts I think I will be fielding 1 or 2 (or maybe 3 depending)

cheers :)

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.


Scout move: Move your Valk 24"

If you have 1st turn, then move 6" and fire all guns. You will no longer have cover (unless you hide behind cover).

But if you do NOT have 1st turn, if he shoots at your Valk, it will have cover from the scout move.
 

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I Expect the Inquisition
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I believe Valthonis is arguing that the scout move happened before "the game starts" so the cover save rule doesn't carry over into the first turn.

The other side of the argument is that they do get the cover save, and since the rule says "the next enemy shooting phase" even if you get first turn and don't move, you've still got a saved up 3+ cover save from the scout move.

Either way, I don't want to sidetrack this thread with a rules discussion.

But the real question is, the Vendetta gets scout? Really?
 

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Am I reading the rule wrong then? (that would not be the first time :))

Quoting the scout rule on page 76

"....But before the first player makes his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. Done exactly as in their movement phase, except that they must remain more than 12" from any enemy"

Since this is done before any turn is played, do you get benefits like cover? and if you do, why do you not count as moving if you happened to get first turn? (confused).

I am not arguing that you are wrong here, just wondering how to correctly apply the rules, since I will be using both valks and vendettas myself :soldier:

Cheers :handshake:

Edit, we could take this in a new thread in the rules section? I replied to it directly from my mail, did not see the post from recklessfable.
 

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I am not seeing where the misunderstanding is coming from :(

You make a Scout move, which is just like a normal move (if you were a bike, you could even Turbo Boost as per the GW FAQ). The rule states that you get a 4+ cover save in the next turn, if the next turn is your opponents turn, you will have a 4+ cover if he shoots at you.

Hell, bikes have their 3+ cover if they make a Scout Turbo Boost.
 

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying.


Scout move: Move your Valk 24"

If you have 1st turn, then move 6" and fire all guns. You will no longer have cover (unless you hide behind cover).

But if you do NOT have 1st turn, if he shoots at your Valk, it will have cover from the scout move.

''''''''''

I am not seeing where the misunderstanding is coming from

You make a Scout move, which is just like a normal move (if you were a bike, you could even Turbo Boost as per the GW FAQ). The rule states that you get a 4+ cover save in the next turn, if the next turn is your opponents turn, you will have a 4+ cover if he shoots at you.

Hell, bikes have their 3+ cover if they make a Scout Turbo Boost.
My confusion is simple :), you are claiming a 4+ cover from moving flat out during the scout move if the other player gets first turn. But you are not counting the valk as having moved flat out if you get first turn.

How I see this is :

1: before game start (in the deployment phase) the valk moves 24 flat out (scout)
2: opponent gets first turn , moves,shoots (at valk, you claim 4+ cover)
3 : you got first turn, move the valk 6" and... wait, I think I get what you are saying

If he gets first turn, then you still have not had your movement phase, thus the flat out cover bonus stays.
But if you get first turn, your first movement phase "resets" the valks movement status (removing the 4+ cover), and if it only moves 6" it can fire all weapons due to being fast.

Did I get that right?:handshake:

Sorry for cluttering up the thread reckless, it will not happen again:soldier:

Cheers :beer:
 

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I Expect the Inquisition
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ok, so The Dude's thread has the consensus that Penal Legionaires and Vets are going to be Troops. That changes my assessment GREATLY of their worth. Suddenly a unit that was "more killy but without scoring" became "more killy but can outflank and scores"

As for the PLs, stubborn and scoring...

The possibilities are scary.
 

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Well, I am converting 20 PL for sure :)

Hey if PL do not work out, they will make great Conscripts.




I hear another rumor that normal Infantry Squad Sgts can take Power Weapons (10).



Imagine a unit of 50 men (with 5 hidden PW) lead by a hidden Commissar with a PW (i guess they can not take PF), throw a vox in there and have Creed give them Furious Charge lol :D
 

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well, the warseer rumor thread claims they can :

Originally Posted by Mojaco
Commissars; Good news; Even standard commissars can have a power fist, as those taken as an upgrade for the platoon command squad share options with the platoon commander. Which include a fist. And more surprisingly, the same system works for squads. Squad sergeant and commissar share a list of upgrades, which is; bolter, plasma pistol, power weapon. Yes, that's right, you can have a power weapon for every 10 men squad!
Having a commissar lord doesn't open up new commissar options.

Could be fun yes.
 

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Well, I am converting 20 PL for sure :)

Hey if PL do not work out, they will make great Conscripts.




I hear another rumor that normal Infantry Squad Sgts can take Power Weapons (10).



Imagine a unit of 50 men (with 5 hidden PW) lead by a hidden Commissar with a PW (i guess they can not take PF), throw a vox in there and have Creed give them Furious Charge lol :D


Hell even without FC.
45guardsmen, 90attacks, 45 hits, 15 wounds, 5 dead MEQ
6 PW, 24 attacks, 12 hits, 4 dead MEQ
= 9 meq

With FC
45 > 90 > 45 > 22.5 > 7.5 meq
6 > 24 > 12 > 6 meq
=13.5 meq

The unit would run you 350. Compare that to a 9 man squad of Ogyrns (370 pts).
9ogyrns > 37 attacks > 18.5 hits > 15.4 wounds > 5.1 dead meq

You could also add 3 more dead SM from Ripper guns, but remember, against SM they coud Combat Tactics and run away.


It is sad that point for point, the guardsmen do better than our Ogyrns :(
 

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It is sad that point for point, the guardsmen do better than our Ogyrns

It isnt that sad. Why the assumption that Ogryns should be better point-for-point than Guardsmen?



Technically everything should be EXACTLY as effective point-for-point as everything else. Think about it.
 
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