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Discussion Starter #1
Iv Skimmed through most of the codex now, happy with some changes, happy with some balancing issues that the old book had, but the Fast section of the book has me scratching my head a little bit. i'm speaking specifically of destroyers. Are they even worth using anymore? Im finding more negatives then positives with this unit right now,

The Pros are as follows... Heavy Gauss is now an upgrade for a reasonable price instead of taking up a heavy slot, Preferred enemy everything (which is still kind of useless-Give me Twinlinked), a reasonable AP Value.

The Cons, Gauss Cannons got a HUGE downgrade with a decrease in str by 1, 1 less shot and a range that mirrors those of the lesser Guass Flayer. did I mention no more 24" movement? oh and now terrain is a problem for them.

These are no longer the Top notch unit they used to be and after paying 25$ a head I'm a little disappointed to say the least. I don't even think these guys will make any lists of mine at this point at least no more then a single squad anyway. With better shooting in every other category in the book I think destroyers are at the very least obsolete.

So it would appear that a new contender has risen to the occasion, The Canoptek Wraiths. Reasons why I think the Wraiths are far superior to the Destroyers...

First off, although the speed is the same, it ignores terrain. Crucial for a fast attack unit that is primarily used to intercept other units.
It comes with rending 6+, I personally believe that all Gauss weapons should have come with rending...(with an added cost of course)
A 3+ Invulnerable save. WHAT? but wait it gets better......
Better upgrades available. Everything from granting the Canoptek Wraiths Initiative 10 in combat with the Whip Coils (kind of) to shooting weapons that Exile random enemy models after a Strength test is failed with the appropriately named Transdimensional Beamer (imagine shooting a character thats not independent and that character makes one bad role its like Jaws but you get more then one!) and a pistol that has the strength to put down even the toughest of foes, the Partical caster.
It comes with a reasonable stat line, nothing special but exceptional for the point cost of the base model,
But here is the "Coupe de Grace"
They come with 2 Wounds a piece, up to 6 in a unit and YOU CAN CUSTOMIZE EACH ONE TO ALLOCATE WOUNDS! (well sort of!) You can only give them a single piece of gear each and only 3 types are available, but in a unit of 6 your still allocating what you want where you want to go but units of 4 is where these guys are going to thrive.

If you were to Maximise the unit to its full potential (4 in a unit) it would cost you around 170 points.

I also forgot to mention you can still throw in independent Characters into the unit. (the destroyer lord is probably the only one worth putting in because the rest would slow the unit down but thats still a nice little bonus!)

Okay, so I'v covered all the awesome stuff about the unit, but what about the negatives?

Well, to start it off they can't repair, but at 2 wounds, wound allocation and an invulnerable save! That would be to much to ask.

They can't do anything to vehicles with armour higher then 12. But that not what these guys are for anyway.

So what is the REAL drawback?.... No models available! So unless your like me and have a few of the old wraiths from the last edition still handy you might be out of luck until you either make your own or GW releases the models with the second wave.

So to sum this up we have a Unit that is cheaper in cost, more diverse and agile on the field, and is guaranteed to survive longer then its lesser counterpart!

But thats enough from me! I'd like to hear everyone else's input on this!

Agree? Disagree? Why? Why not? If you have an opinion or a statement? Correction? Comment!

Cheers!

Klondiker
 

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some valid points you have there mate!
I have allways been a destroyer whore myself, so I was kind of sad to see the new destroyer changes. But as you have described, the new wraith might be my new favorites. Never been a huge fan of necron CC but it looks like I might have to reconsider my playstyle here. gonna be fun :)
 

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Destoyers as a whole seriously got hit hard by the new necron codex. The wraiths are pretty much the best fast attack choice in the necron army. The preferred enemy rule is useless since destroyers are better shooting than in close combat. the s5 ap3 is nothing to scoff at though, since a squad of 5 of them lay down some hurt on a squad. The heavy destroyer isn't much better, especially for its price tag.
 

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Destroyers are still better than tomb blades in any case, they get a second shot for twice the price, but have a 3+ save and have ap3 as opposed to ap-, and can move and shoot which the tomb blasters cant. and those upgrades are pretty pricey for the tomb blades. Also, come sixth edition where destroyers preferred enemy gets re-rolls to hit in shooting as well, a squad of 5 will throw out on average 8.88 shots. Right now they look like perfect long fangs killers or equivalent.

but yeah Scarabs seem like the worlds best anti-tank, lychguard are our terminator equivalents, but i've never fielded wraiths before so don't really know what their roll is.
 

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Your comment about wraiths useless on anything AV12 or higher, you forgot Rending is +d3, which can TOTAL S6+d6 Pen+d3 rend, that's 15 possible and a rend on a 6 is AUTO pen even if just 1 on the d3 for AV12!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Your comment about wraiths useless on anything AV12 or higher, you forgot Rending is +d3, which can TOTAL S6+d6 Pen+d3 rend, that's 15 possible and a rend on a 6 is AUTO pen even if just 1 on the d3 for AV12!
You are absolutely 100% correct Sir, Rep!
 

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Your comment about wraiths useless on anything AV12 or higher, you forgot Rending is +d3, which can TOTAL S6+d6 Pen+d3 rend, that's 15 possible and a rend on a 6 is AUTO pen even if just 1 on the d3 for AV12!
Well, sure you won't be doing much to land raiders and monoliths, but almost every other vehicle has rear armor 10 or 11. And if scarabs get in first, well....
 

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Destroyers aren't bad or obsolete. Their role has just changed. Instead of being the end-all solution to all our needs they are now our best MEQ killer. Take a few groupsof 3-5. Reserve them. Take a C'tan to make difficult terrain dangerous to keep MEQ out of terrain. Deep Strike the Destroyers and see a whole Purifier squad vanish with each volley with no saves allowed.
 
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I heartily concur, Polaria, seems to me that with the new codex Destroyers have been repositioned to the role of MEQ-killer. Yeah they might've lost a point of str and a shot, but AP3 is huge. Plus, the range isn't really that important since you can just deep strike them wherever they need to be, and the strength is still high enough to threaten light vehicles in a pinch.

The thing is, they kinda had to change the destroyers' role in our army, since they've introduced so many new units, whose roles would've overlapped with the destroyers' old role. I think someone on Dakka ran the numbers re: old destroys vs. new destroyers, and unsurprisingly against MEQ the new ones far outshone the old. You might counter that that's not really fair, since against 4+ armour and worse the old ones are better, but really that's only for 4+ armour, since we have so much ap 5 in our army, negating 5+ armour isn't a problem at all.

...did what I said make sense? Reading it back, it seems kinda all over the place, oh well.
 

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Wraiths are brutal, heavy destroyers are pretty damn nasty too. But plain destroyers are complete trash.
 

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Well, sure you won't be doing much to land raiders and monoliths, but almost every other vehicle has rear armor 10 or 11. And if scarabs get in first, well....
You realize, If I had a full squad of 6 wraiths, that's 4x6=24 attacks, even if the land raider moved 12" (even better if 6"). I'm hitting on 6's, if I REND with a 6, and roll a D3 5 OR 6, I just penned that land raider. You realize 15 pen can destroy a land raider. Even more so if you had scarabs chewing it down or something with that negative armor value. Sure, the math is likely poor (too lazy to crunch numbers), but there is a CHANCE to actually destroy AV14 from wraiths with rend.

Did I just do that wrong, but 24 attacks is 4 hits, of the 4 hits that's 0.66 rends, and D3 of 5 or 6 is 0.22. So yes, low, but still a chance if you're bored. :p
 

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You forgot to multiply by 0.33 (chances of vehicle destroyed or vehicle explodes :p) You are assuming the worst by hitting only on 6s. However, in the case of destroyers, they either need to deep strike or be held in reserve or come out of the monolith. If they sit on the field, they will get destroyed. They're simply too fragile in a prolonged firefight, especially with a 24" gun. Heavy Destroyers seem to get screwed in this recent edition. They are way too expensive for an anti-tank choice. This is where the biggest argument for wraiths come. However, if you are dead set in using destroyers, you have to either deep strike them or have them come out of the monolith. They are simply way to fragile otherwise. Another tactic would be to bring a c'tan with writhing worldscape to make your opponent think twice about using cover.
 

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Has anyone else realised that the preferred enemy basically gives them twin-linked? And with a 5pt point drop in addition to this, thats basically what we asked for from last addition... and they do actually work perfectly fine. Especially if you give them tank hunters from zandrekh...
 

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Has anyone else realised that the preferred enemy basically gives them twin-linked? And with a 5pt point drop in addition to this, thats basically what we asked for from last addition... and they do actually work perfectly fine. Especially if you give them tank hunters from zandrekh...
Time to read the rules again, my friend.

"Preferred Enemy... always re-roll their rolls to hit in close combat against their preferred enemy"
- Basic Rulebook, p.75 (emphasis mine)
 

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Time to read the rules again, my friend.

"Preferred Enemy... always re-roll their rolls to hit in close combat against their preferred enemy"
- Basic Rulebook, p.75 (emphasis mine)
Haha lol, I was scepticle on this... well it looks like I'm just selling all of my heavy destroyers and buying wraiths... still need some anti-tank now...
 

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Has anyone else realised that the preferred enemy basically gives them twin-linked? And with a 5pt point drop in addition to this, thats basically what we asked for from last addition... and they do actually work perfectly fine. Especially if you give them tank hunters from zandrekh...
I too, misread this. Preferred enemy as stated is CC only. Not shooting. Hopefully that's something changing in the 6th edition rules, but don't count on it. Haven't read this yet, but can Wraiths have tank hunter then, with this named char!?
 

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I too, misread this. Preferred enemy as stated is CC only. Not shooting. Hopefully that's something changing in the 6th edition rules, but don't count on it. Haven't read this yet, but can Wraiths have tank hunter then, with this named char!?
Yep, its kinda hilairious. He can give a special rule to any unit in your army each turn. AND take a bunch off one enemy unit each turn. AND he has some really nasty tricks with deepstrike up his sleeve. The rules list includes tank-hunters, stealth, counter-attack or, even better for wraiths, furious charge :D. He's also a bargin on points for all this. Just thought of the nastiness when giving tank-hunters to annihilation barges or turning the new immortals into the old destroyers for transport slaughtering... also lychguard with furious charge could be interesting... and removing furious charge from blood angels could be brilliant.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Zahndrekh offers a lot to any unit, but paired with the Wraiths he's going to prove to be quite the problem amongst other armies.
 

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If you ask me, the biggest nerf to destroyers is their inability to move and shoot. they're now basically a devastator squad with faster movement and no ablative wounds.

Edit - I can't read obviously, destroyer weapons are now assault, so never mind.
 
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