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Hey Guys,

I got into 40k way back when I was about 12. I played through 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition. But unfortunately, I stopped playing when my local GW, and every GW in the area, closed down and the community was scattered to the wind. I can't quite pinpoint at what exact time I left the game, but as I remember it, the blood angels had just come out, deep striking their land raiders and such, and everyone was pooping their pants over it. I came across my old models and wondered if it would be worth it to get back in to, as I hear things are vastly different from what they used to be. Please let me know if what i have heard is true:

1. There are no more force orgs anymore. You are no longer required to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as the bedrock of your army. If you want 8 land raiders as your army and that's it, then you can have 8 land raiders and no one can tell you anything. Literally anything goes and it's in the rules.

2. There are no more rules on who you can pair your army with. This means nids can be in the same army as tau, chaos can be in the same army as daemon hunters, and other blasphemous combinations. Or you can have 4 different armies in the same list and it totally flies according to the rules.

3. Things have gotten EVEN MORE expensive. New models that had just been released used to cost $60, and we used to think that was pushing the limit. Now I see some CSM model on a horse and it costs $150 holy S*** balls. Is the rest of the game really that expensive? Is GW still doing the "Introduce new models that are OP so you gotta have em, and we'll price em through the roof" nonsense they used to do, but now to the umpteen degree?

4. GW stores are still on the decline? I keep seeing them disappear, and it looks like there's only 1 left in the entire SF bay area. Am I missing something, or is the business continuing to fall off the radar?

Thanks for all your insight guys, it's been such a long time since i've played, and I have some great memories, but I don't know if it would be worth it at this point, especially if all of the above are true.
 

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Hey,

The core rules of the game are still very similar to 5th with a few notable exceptions:

1) Vehicles now have 'hull points'. Remember how you would shake/stun rhinos a thousand times in 5th without any lasting effect? In 7th they take three glancing/penetrating hits of any type and they are gone.

2) An optional method of scoring involves rolling/drawing cards for ongoing missions that you achieve to score points each turn - such as capturing an objective, killing units, using psychic powers, etc. Unfortunately it is somewhat unrefined and can lead to 'luck of the cards' scenarios where you pull a bunch of unachievable objectives while your opponent scores points for doing nothing.

3) The game is now small-scale apocalypse. Superheavies are in, formations are in (and unlike apoc where you paid for bonuses the formations are free and tend to bring a lot of freebies with them).

4) The psychic phase. No more Ld rolls, it's now a variant on the old fantasy system of having a number of dice based on number of psykers and using those dice to power your spells / stop your opponent.


1. There are no more force orgs anymore. You are no longer required to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as the bedrock of your army. If you want 8 land raiders as your army and that's it, then you can have 8 land raiders and no one can tell you anything. Literally anything goes and it's in the rules.
Force orgs are optional. You get bonuses for using them (see the rules for 'battleforged' vs 'unbound' armies).


2. There are no more rules on who you can pair your army with. This means nids can be in the same army as tau, chaos can be in the same army as daemon hunters, and other blasphemous combinations. Or you can have 4 different armies in the same list and it totally flies according to the rules.
Partially correct, there are differing levels of alliance.

And also no more daemon hunters, the DH/WH books were discontinued not long after the 5e Blood Angels was released. As it stands now the Grey Knights are a stand-alone book while the sisters and inquisition are paid downloads - the former an updated 5e white dwarf article, the latter a collection of outdated 5e unit rules.

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Can't speak as to the stores in the US but yes things have gotten more expensive, though GW have somewhat unusually been releasing starter packs with substantial discounts. At the other end of the scale they have also been releasing huge 'pay to win' bundles that cost an arm and a leg and come with absurd 'bonus' rules, like the skyhammer formation.



How the game will work out for you personally will depend on your local players and your army - there is a bit of a disconnect between the haves and the have nots with the new formation and superheavy stuff (unless you ally in from the 'haves'). It'll take a bit of getting used to so don't be too dispirited if you roll up for a game and your opponent starts pulling out apocalyptic blast templates and 'destroyer' strength weapons - it's just where the game is now and (most) armies are slowly being dragged up to this new style of play.
 

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Hey A.T.

Wow thanks a lot for the detailed breakdown! So it looks like the pay to win factor has risen quite steadily over time, to where it is extremely obvious that the haves will roflstomp the have-nots with superheavies and $$$$ models. While those trying to play an honest game with average amounts of spending money are pigeon holed into the cheaper units that are less effective and simply not the best in their categories (troop/ heavy/ etc)?

What exactly is the benefit to using a force org, or using just a single army instead of 5 in one? What are these bonuses you speak of?

What do you mean the game is now small scale apoc? Do people not play 1500 or 2000 point games anymore? Is everyone just trying to play with 10k points and every model that they own on the board at once?
 

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So it looks like the pay to win factor has risen quite steadily over time, to where it is extremely obvious that the haves will roflstomp the have-nots with superheavies and $$$$ models
I would say that was more the case back in 5th ed with forgeworld 'experimental rule syndrome'. In 7th anything could end up being powerful depending on the luck of the draw with formations.

Marines for instance have the skyhammer - a couple of squads of assault marines and a couple of squads of devastators in drop pods, nothing untowards about that you would think. Except that it throws all of the limitations of the units out of the window, the pods come down when you want, the devastators fire on the move, the assault marines charge straight out of deepstrike and a bunch of other bonuses.

It's the odd situation where it isn't that someone has the big $$$ model, but rather two players can have the same models or supposed equivalents from different armies and yet one of them will be absurdly disadvantaged.


What exactly is the benefit to using a force org, or using just a single army instead of 5 in one? What are these bonuses you speak of?
At the most basic level is the "objective secured" rule. If you are playing games with the variable missions and just using a normal force org chart then your troops have priority over all other non-objectived secured units - in the sense that they can walk up to an objective and claim it even though your opponent has something sitting on it.

Beyond that all of the formations with their bonuses require you to be playing the whole army battleforged.
For example - take 8 landraiders and all you get are 8 landraiders. Take 9 landraiders and you get three spearhead formations, and all the landraiders end up immune to damage results for no additional cost.


What do you mean the game is now small scale apoc? Do people not play 1500 or 2000 point games anymore? Is everyone just trying to play with 10k points and every model that they own on the board at once?
Games are still 1500-2000 points, it's just that you see things that back in 5th edition would have only been used on an apocalypse board. Not just super heavy vehicles (which are still uncommon outside of the knights) but things like 10" blast templates and flyer rules which you would have missed the introduction of in 6th.
 

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So it looks like the pay to win factor has risen quite steadily over time, to where it is extremely obvious that the haves will roflstomp the have-nots with superheavies and $$$$ models.
Not exactly. For example, there is one army, Imperial Knights, that is entirely made up of Superheavy Walkers. At first glance, you might think "wow, that is so overpowered". However, all-Knight armies tend to only have 3-4 models in a 1500 point game. Spend 5-6 turns throwing all of your army's firepower at 4 models and you will kill most, if not all, of them unless your army is severely lacking in anti-tank firepower. In an objective game, those Knights are at a disadvantage because of their low numbers. So they are still powerful, but not incredibly overpowered per se.

What exactly is the benefit to using a force org, or using just a single army instead of 5 in one? What are these bonuses you speak of?.
Each new codex is coming out with a bevy of formations to use instead of the regular Force Organisation Chart (or Combined Arms Detachment, as it is now called). Each formation requires a certain number of units, and then bestows specific bonuses on them in the form of free rules. For example, in the Space Marine book, you can take a Battle Demi-Company, which requires three Tactical Squads, an Assault Squad, a Devastator Squad, and a Captain or Chaplain. There is some leeway (for example you can replace the Assault Squad with a Land Speeder, and squad numbers aren't required), and in return every unit in that Demi-Company gets Objective Secured, not just the Tactical Marines. This is good in that you get a free bonus, but bad in that you HAVE to take all of the requirements (known colloquially as a 'tax'). So to field a Demi-Company you need at least 26 models, which is at minimum 440 points before upgrades, before Dedicated Transports, and at minimum squad sizes. That's a third of a 1500 points game, which can easily get up to almost 1000 points once you upgrade and add models. Then you need either another formation to bring in more units, because you can't add units to a formation.

This means that a lot of armies are either a bunch of formations, or someone might use a Combined Arms Detachment and then add a formation or two to get bonuses.

What do you mean the game is now small scale apoc? Do people not play 1500 or 2000 point games anymore? Is everyone just trying to play with 10k points and every model that they own on the board at once?
No, that's Age of Sigmar, which replaced Fantasy. As A.T. says, Games Workshop has now started allowing larger models to move into smaller games. So as I said with regards to the Knights, you do get powerful units, but they still cost the same in points so you give up a chunk of your army. Orks, for example, can bring a Stompa into a regular sized game. That Stompa will cost almost 800 points though, so at 1500 points you're putting a LOT of eggs into one basket.
 

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Not exactly. For example, there is one army, Imperial Knights, that is entirely made up of Superheavy Walkers. At first glance, you might think "wow, that is so overpowered". However, all-Knight armies tend to only have 3-4 models in a 1500 point game. Spend 5-6 turns throwing all of your army's firepower at 4 models and you will kill most, if not all, of them unless your army is severely lacking in anti-tank firepower. In an objective game, those Knights are at a disadvantage because of their low numbers. So they are still powerful, but not incredibly overpowered per se.



Each new codex is coming out with a bevy of formations to use instead of the regular Force Organisation Chart (or Combined Arms Detachment, as it is now called). Each formation requires a certain number of units, and then bestows specific bonuses on them in the form of free rules. For example, in the Space Marine book, you can take a Battle Demi-Company, which requires three Tactical Squads, an Assault Squad, a Devastator Squad, and a Captain or Chaplain. There is some leeway (for example you can replace the Assault Squad with a Land Speeder, and squad numbers aren't required), and in return every unit in that Demi-Company gets Objective Secured, not just the Tactical Marines. This is good in that you get a free bonus, but bad in that you HAVE to take all of the requirements (known colloquially as a 'tax'). So to field a Demi-Company you need at least 26 models, which is at minimum 440 points before upgrades, before Dedicated Transports, and at minimum squad sizes. That's a third of a 1500 points game, which can easily get up to almost 1000 points once you upgrade and add models. Then you need either another formation to bring in more units, because you can't add units to a formation.

This means that a lot of armies are either a bunch of formations, or someone might use a Combined Arms Detachment and then add a formation or two to get bonuses. google street view



No, that's Age of Sigmar, which replaced Fantasy. As A.T. says, Games Workshop has now started allowing larger models to move into smaller games. So as I said with regards to the Knights, you do get powerful units, but they still cost the same in points so you give up a chunk of your army. Orks, for example, can bring a Stompa into a regular sized game. That Stompa will cost almost 800 points though, so at 1500 points you're putting a LOT of eggs into one basket.
At the most basic level is the "objective secured" rule.
 
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