[kidsyndrome]

Alright, I've never played in any tournaments, only ever against friends, and was wondering... what exactly do you have to tell your opponent and when? I know that, for example, if you have a squad in a transport all you have to do is put the transport on the table... you can keep the vehicle's contents a mystery until they disembark, but I'm not sure how much cloak & dagger you can use with the rest of your models and army rules.

As an IG player, would I have to tell my opponent what doctrines I'm using, or only tell him the doctrines as they come into play? What about doctrines that are modelled on (e.g. Chameleoline or Chem-Inhalers)... do I have to mention these, as it may or may not be clear that my troops' cloaks or facemasks represent anything? Do I have to tell him exactly what each character has for equipment?

The situation came up when I played against my friend with my Armored Company army... I had taken the doctrine which allows me to fire my sponsons in assault at I10, and he hadn't known that before he assaulted.

I could see reasons for both telling them ahead of time and for letting them find out the hard way... what are the officials "rules" for this, and what is considered good sportsmanship to tell an opponent before you start? I don't want to be accused of trying to "sneak one" by someone, but at the same time, the less they know about my army, the better!

 

[LordCreampuff]

Alright, I've never played in any tournaments, only ever against friends, and was wondering... what exactly do you have to tell your opponent and when? I know that, for example, if you have a squad in a transport all you have to do is put the transport on the table... you can keep the vehicle's contents a mystery until they disembark, but I'm not sure how much cloak & dagger you can use with the rest of your models and army rules.

As an IG player, would I have to tell my opponent what doctrines I'm using, or only tell him the doctrines as they come into play? What about doctrines that are modelled on (e.g. Chameleoline or Chem-Inhalers)... do I have to mention these, as it may or may not be clear that my troops' cloaks or facemasks represent anything? Do I have to tell him exactly what each character has for equipment?

The situation came up when I played against my friend with my Armored Company army... I had taken the doctrine which allows me to fire my sponsons in assault at I10, and he hadn't known that before he assaulted.

I could see reasons for both telling them ahead of time and for letting them find out the hard way... what are the officials "rules" for this, and what is considered good sportsmanship to tell an opponent before you start? I don't want to be accused of trying to "sneak one" by someone, but at the same time, the less they know about my army, the better!

In a tournament you will have a judge verify your army list. Your opponent may not even know who he is fighting against until you place your first model. If you're playing a friendly game with a friend you have no choice but to verify each other's list.

I know you don't have to declare the contents of a transport but I would definitely note it down somewhere. I force all of my opponents to do this if they have multiple transports in the game. This prevents him from rearranging the transport contents during the battle. Writing the transport contents on a scrap of paper and taping it to the bottom of the transport is my favorite option. When disembarking simply read the paper and deploy the troops.

 

[Laplace]

Question then. Is it allowed to ask right before the first model is put down to say to your opponent, "Show me your entire list" (assuming you are willing to do the same)? Or do you only challenge when you have suspicion he might be pulling a fast one on you (having upgrades/powers conveniently when he needs them, etc).

 

[The_Outsider]

In the rulebook ( I belive) it says you don't have to tell your opponent anything. I do just so people know whats where and whos who.

 

[kidsyndrome]

I don't have to worry about my buddy cheating (as far as verifying army lists or switching transport contents), but there shoul dbe some sort of compromise.

I figured I would tell him anything that SHOULD be readily seen on a model... so if a model has a power sword, it can be told to your opponent as it should be apparent. Same with hunter-killer missiles, extra armor on vehicles, etc etc.

The stuff I figure you shouldn't have to tell your opponent is what they can't see... doctrines such as Close Order Drill or counter-attack from the space marines.

So my opponent (in a tournament) wouldn't know I was fielding Armored Company until likely after I placed my first troop choice... interesting...

 

[LordCreampuff]

So my opponent (in a tournament) wouldn't know I was fielding Armored Company until likely after I placed my first troop choice... interesting...

Exactly. Nor would he know which doctrines you used until they came into play. This makes the game more interesting but can lead to some issues during the game when hidden aspects of each army begin to come into play. I prefer to play a completely open game with my friends to alleviate any potential arguments. We scrutinize each other's lists before the game and that's it. Secret deployment for transported units as normal (written down of course) and no looking at their list during the game. Makes for an interesting and friendly game.

 

[Anacron]

If you want to retain some degree of surprise, then do what I do and take multiple transport vehicles equipped identically.

I have three identical Wave Serpents, and only the colour of the gems/stones can tell them apart. That way I can conceal from my opponent exactly which unit is where, even if he does insist on seeing my army list up front (which I don't mind). I also have huge numbers painted on the bottom, to avoid any "you-swapped-units-in-transports!" accusations.

 

[tarzen]

The rules state that you are under no pressure to ever tell them anything about your army.

In a tournie, I would never show my list. If someone has doubts, call a ref, they can sort it out, as that's what they're there for. If, after the game, you feel you were cheated, ask a ref to check this or that part of his list. Disqualifications happen, but aren't the best way to get good gaming scores.

I mark all my transports on my list as follows: On my army list I write G(ame) #(1) black (for my black wave serpent) (green) (or falcon)
If I want to change it in the next game I just write g2 green.

No muss, no fuss.

As to what you must model, it's totally up to the organizer, always call them before and ask. Ask if traits must be modeled. I've seen it before, glad I play eldar where conversions are simply a matter of a model or two.

 

[Lord Malachi]

When I play with friends we never really check each others army list as we all trust one another and all use Army Builder. Before the game starts we tell each other what armies we will be fielding. As we deploy our forces we also mention what weapons and/or wargear each unit has, mainly to avoid confusion. The only thing we sometimes conceal are transport contents. I number mine and mark the corresponding numbers on my army list. We rarely use traits, but I could see concealing those as well. Some are obvious and can't be concealed, such as Take the Fight to Them or Mechanized (IG). They should always be revealed when employed, however such as Furious Assault or Tank Hunters. Otherwise your opponent may think that you are cheating.

 

[molaticdeath]

Well i understand the fun of surprize and concealment, but to tell you the truth i won't play someone if they refuse to show me their list at any point...weither it's before or during the game.. and just about everyone that plays in my area (north carolina) feels the same. As soon as someone refuses to show their list.. you automatically assume something is fishy about it. With vehicles it's totally cool keeping their contense a mystery as long as it is written some where to keep people from 'cheating'. The whole concealment thing is great. Like that mission when you have secrete deployments..thats cool.

 

[tarzen]

Well i understand the fun of surprize and concealment, but to tell you the truth i won't play someone if they refuse to show me their list at any point...weither it's before or during the game.. and just about everyone that plays in my area (north carolina) feels the same. As soon as someone refuses to show their list.. you automatically assume something is fishy about it. With vehicles it's totally cool keeping their contense a mystery as long as it is written some where to keep people from 'cheating'. The whole concealment thing is great. Like that mission when you have secrete deployments..thats cool.

So let me get this straight, you asume that people are cheating because they play by the rules. Interesting. By all means, play against anyone you wish, but please realise the rules state you don't have to disclose anything.
Now that said, any one that put there list together using army builder is more than subject, as it's so full of flaws that it's scarey. That's someones list I would check after every game. Also, people that don't have their codex with them, again, raises I brows, and anytime I have a rules question they must back it up or accept the bgb's rules. Your assault cannon is heavy 4 rending, show me. your flamer is s5 not s4, show me. you can assault after firing heavy weapons, show me.
But I am also familiar with most armies (not sisters though, the whole faith points reeks of GW crap (much like blood angels)), so when something doesn't seem right, I ask for proof. If they can't provide it, I have the choice-either call them a cheat and pack up, or accept them at their word and beat them down anyways.

 

[LordCreampuff]

Well i understand the fun of surprize and concealment, but to tell you the truth i won't play someone if they refuse to show me their list at any point...weither it's before or during the game.. and just about everyone that plays in my area (north carolina) feels the same. As soon as someone refuses to show their list.. you automatically assume something is fishy about it. With vehicles it's totally cool keeping their contense a mystery as long as it is written some where to keep people from 'cheating'. The whole concealment thing is great. Like that mission when you have secrete deployments..thats cool.

I can understand checking out each other's list before or after the game just to verify points and unit choices are valid. But to force your opponent to show you their list during the game isn't playing by the rules. If you don't trust your opponent you'll have to take precautions to make sure they're playing fairly. But once you verify everything is legit get with the game playing and leave the scrutiny until later.
My group focuses on fun, not competition. We verify each other's lists before the battle and identify transport contents (secretly) before they are deployed. When the troops disembark the deployment notes are displayed for everyone to see. Any rules for your army must be provided by you. If you want to use a rule and cannot find it quickly you miss out on it for that turn. If you cannot find it at all you cannot use the rule, plain and simple. Any discrepancies we try to quickly look up and we have a roll-off if we can't find the answer.