[aenar]

A list that incorporates I hope the best elements of my previous army lists intended for tournaments. Comment / critisism all greatfully recieved.
Archmage, LvL4, silver wand, 2 dispel scrolls. 310pts
Mage, LvL2, jewel of dusk. 150pts
Noble, BsB, armour of caledor, great wepon. 143pts
10 Archers
10 Archers
17 Phoenix guard, full command, banner of sorcery 335pts
7 White lions including musician
7 White lions including musician
5 Dragon princes including musician
5 Dragon princes including musician
2 Great eagles
2 Repeater bolt throwers
Total 2000pts
10-12 power dice
5 dispell dice + 2 dispel scrolls.
A list that suits an aggresive style of play with the PG tarpit flanked by four hard hitting flanking units. The WL either act as flankers taking advantage of any woods or at a pinch also act as a tarpit (since you have to kill all of them as they are unlikely to flee with stubborn and a re-roll) until the other flanking units can charge. I plan to use drain magic to limit amy opponents magic phase and act as a magical defence, but this does leave me vulnerable if my opponets gets first turn for at least one turn.

 

[ga1661]

I have to say... this list is a vast improvement over the first one I saw from you... I take it you've been watching Demandred's post very carefully, and with good reason!

Honestly the only little tiny tiny criticism I can see here is the lack of at least one Dispel Scroll / Powerstone (whichever school you subscribe to... let me know if you are unfamiliar with what I'm talking about). But at the same time I really can't see an obvious cut to make room, so I can't say I blame you.

My only other question is where the mages are going... not being on horseback, they can't hide with the Dragon Princes, and I can't imagine you want them in a White Lion or Phoenix Guard unit, so that leaves Archer units. The only possible problem with that is the Ring of Fury's limited range. Anything that gets inside the 24" range of your archers during your opopnent's turn (and I imagine said archers are going to be fairly stationary and nowhere near combat), more than likely is going to be engaged by a charge during your own turn, or engaged by during your opponent's following turn. I don't know that you're going to have any good targets for the Ring to hit, and after the first use, the opponent is going to know better and hold a dice back for it if he has anything exposed to the Ring that he needs to keep safe, assuming you did manage to run him out of dispel dice before the first time you tried to use the Ring.

Just some food for thought...

 

[Jared van Kell]

This list keeps getting better and better the more I see it. I really cannot see any more room for improvement. Well done.

Woooooot 1000th Post 8X

JvK :happy:

 

[Quannum]

Great list Aenar. Best yet.

 

[aenar]

In reply to ga1661 i have considered the problem of the mages using the archers as a bunker and originally wrote this list with two dispell scroll rather than the ring of fury. I agree with you entirely i don't want any mage in the PG because i am hoping to use it to engage and immobilise my opponents most powerfull unit and the WL are too small a unit with no champoins to accept challenges to act as a mage bunker. I will therefore possibly need to go back to the original list with two dipell scrolls.

 

[buckero0]

sometimes putting a mage in the rbt crew is safer than with archers. You can always start them in with the PG and then move them out as deployment unfolds and see who has the first turn. Even with the level 2 (who is probably going to have shield of Saphery) can hang back while the PG with archmage moves forward. After turn 1-2 you'll know if you can safely place them in trees or with a RBT crew (I usually target the enemy's shooting first since my numbers are small, and then they have to meet me in the middle to duke it out or I can make it across the board in about a turn or 2)

Having the archmage and BSB in the PG protects them and still makes kills (you could even sneak your archmage the biting blade) You have 2 guys that can challenge and protect the archmage and better chance of Fear and Outnumber

 

[ga1661]

To buckeroo (but for the general benefit of everyone obv...):
The only problem with putting your mage in with RBT crew is that it encourages your opponents to shoot/send magic missiles/concentrate all their quick-hitters on your RBTs. I'd agree that against some armies it would be safer to hang with RBTs, but I don't know that you want to plan on it; but my main point was that the Ring is not going to have sufficient targets if it has to sit with a stationary firing unit, either Archers or RBTs. I think we can agree that sending them out with WL is a poor choice, but I'd be real nervous letting my Archmage sit in the PG unit. Obviously it makes Ring a viable choice, but when you look at what else the army can do, I don't know that you want to take that kind of risk.

Just one other note, aenar, I noticed in your tactics comments for the list that you want to use Drain Magic as a main part of your defense... usually if you want to use Drain Magic to control, you'll want to take Powerstones instead of Dispel Scrolls, so that when your level 2 casts the first one as the second-to-last spell of the phase, if you are successful, your Archmage can use a 'stone to make sure you get a second one off as the last spell of the phase, since it will be a 10+... far less pressure if you have a 'stone available, and if you miss on the first one or it gets dispelled, you can save the 'stone for another turn. Most armies at 2k can't withstand a +6 to cast, so when you get both off to end the phase, you more or less shut down your opponent for a whole turn. Even the better casting armies will have to throw more dice into spells than they'd normally want to, increasing the chances for a miscast. I'm not sure where I stand on this particular argument, I've had success with both Scrolls and 'stones, but on a mathemathical/theoretical level, in the long run I think you're better off with 'stones, so long as you can deal with the consequences of occasionally having your opponent cast something you can't stop, even though he didn't get Irresistable Force.

 

[Rising Leviathan]

Hi

First of all I agree with JvK though I think you really need more magic defence. This off course depends on the opponent but as an all comers list you are very light. I would suggest dropping RoF for either 2 dispel scrolls or annulian crystal. (It really does wonders)
If you go with the annulian crystal you must drop the silver wand though.
This is just my opinion as I usually face magic heavy armies.

Other than that I can't find anything else to point out.

Keep up the good work!

 

[buckero0]

Hi

First of all I agree with JvK though I think you really need more magic defence. This off course depends on the opponent but as an all comers list you are very light. I would suggest dropping RoF for either 2 dispel scrolls or annulian crystal. (It really does wonders)
If you go with the annulian crystal you must drop the silver wand though.
This is just my opinion as I usually face magic heavy armies.

I can't say that he's light on magic. 5DD and +1 to dispel is pretty good for most armies. There are some places in Europe, I've heard that you have to have at least 3 casters and 3-4 scrolls to get through the magic phase (in my opinion, that's ridiculous, but it still exists)

@ga1661 I didn't say it was the best idea to put your mages in RBT crews everytime, but for this list (looks like a defensive list) I would say it is a better alternative than putting all the characters in the PG. If he puts them in the archer unit - the whole unit could be decimated in one turn with decent shooting (dwarves, empire, WE, etc) which would be a viable tactic to reduce the magic attack next turn. If he puts them in the WL, the same thing could happen, even though it would take some serious shooting (only 2-3 have to die before he starts randomizing the hits on his mage) The RBT offers some protection in that you have to randomize to hit and then randomize again, so the opponent would have to have some serious firepower and some ridiculous luck to kill the mage. Also, warmachine hunters usually have a hard time getting to RBTs, because they are set back further than some archers who are normally on the line or close to it, so that they can shoot first turn. This also puts them out of range for mass shooting at least for a turn or two (think handguns or regular bows range or the move and shoot rules) I know it draws attention to the RBT, but let's be honest, if you have a choice of knocking out a RBT or some archers, you're going to try to take out the RBT anyway. The archers are usually more of an annoyance than anything. The Archmage with the ring has to go with the PG and the BSB. there is no where else to put him. He needs protection from being targeted by opposing forces or losing combat. The only unit in the army that can provide that is the PG. The BSB can help protect and keep bad guys from hitting him in combat as well as the ranks and fear (and added combat res) keep him from being overrun in combat (in most cases) Putting a mage in with white lions or archers, they can lose combat to a superior force (think 28 orcs with full command and static combat res of 5-6 to your 6-7 attacks)

 

[ga1661]

@buckeroo: I think we are pretty much on the same page here... I just think we have different preferences on how to solve the problem. I agree that if you want to give that Archamge the Ring, he has to go PG. I just don't necessarily accept the premise that you want to give him the Ring in the first place. If he doesn't have the Ring, it's a more interesting question, and I'm not sure I see a set up of that Archmage that would automatically suggest he join the PG, besides the Robes + ToSaphery combination (which I find only helps if your opponent has never played against it before, otherwise he knows better and finds a way around it).

Also didn't mean to suggest that you were suggesting he put the mages with RBT crew every single time, I actually like that plan a lot against a number of armies. I was just try to point out that against some armies you're going to be giving them the green light to ignore your archer units and send everything at the RBTs. When the mages hide with archers, your opponent at least has to consider trying to dispatch the archer unit and the RBTs, rather than just the RBTs and getting the mages as a bargain.

 

[Allonairre]

You don't have to randomize the shooting against the RBT's twice as they have less than 5 rank and file models they only have to get 3 hits on crew to gaurantee a hit on the mage. Still not very likely but it happens, also doesn't receive lookout sir aargh.

In terms of the ring, it depends on if you are playing offensively or defensively, but I think for a tournament powerstones are your best bet personally.

 

[aenar]

The problem with using either the archers or the RBT as bunkers for the mages is that not only may the RoF not have any usefull targets but as i move forward to engage the enemy most of the other spells in high magic have limited ranges as well and may well be out of range unless i move the mages out of their bunkers. One possibility is to swap the magic items on the two mages and put the level 2 mage in the PG with the RoF. Any oppinions about this?

 

[Jared van Kell]

How about the Cloak of Forlaith on your archmage. Ethereal is never a bad thing for spellcasters. ;Y

JvK :happy:

 

[aenar]

I think i just have to bite the bullet and change the RoF much as I would like it for the two dispel scrolls and the the possitioning of the mages is not so crucial I can decide on the day which units they are going in. There is no way I can see to ensure the sfety of the archmage in the PG without radically altering the list. This does however have one bonus if I am not relying on drain magic for defence I can take a different lore of magic with one of my mages dependent on my opponent.

 

[buckero0]

You don't have to randomize the shooting against the RBT's twice as they have less than 5 rank and file models they only have to get 3 hits on crew to gaurantee a hit on the mage. Still not very likely but it happens, also doesn't receive lookout sir aargh.

In terms of the ring, it depends on if you are playing offensively or defensively, but I think for a tournament powerstones are your best bet personally.

That's kind of what I meant, they would have to do lots of wounds on the crew (5-6's) to put one on the mage. The real question is, if your crew is killed, but the mage was part of the crew, can he now shoot the RBT ;Y after being a member of the crew and losing his buddies? j/k