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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All,

I have a question regarding the size of tanks, monsterous creatures and how this affects line of sight.

- Do monsterous creatures have a stated count as size?
- Do Rhino's have a stated count as size?

- if i positioned a daemon prince (monsterous creature) behind a rhino or 2 would he be in or out of Los of enemy units on the oposite side of the Rhino? for example:

____________________________



x> <Rhino <Daemon Prince




____________________________


Can 'x' see the daemon prince?

Many thanks for your help!

Moon
 

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They should be the same size (2 iirc), so I'd say go with real line of sight. From your units positions and hights, can they see anything? (this is why you can't really hide large creatures)

Although I'm wondering what others might think about this. Say you have a sword sticking out the side of the tank but you can't actually see the creature or its base. Do you use LOS off model or base? (Isn't the rule base? Can't remember)
 

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LO Zealot
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Hi All,

I have a question regarding the size of tanks, monsterous creatures and how this affects line of sight.

- Do monsterous creatures have a stated count as size?
- Do Rhino's have a stated count as size?

- if i positioned a daemon prince (monsterous creature) behind a rhino or 2 would he be in or out of Los of enemy units on the oposite side of the Rhino? for example:

____________________________



x> <Rhino <Daemon Prince




____________________________


Can 'x' see the daemon prince?

Many thanks for your help!

Moon

Vehicles and monstrous creatures are size 3 (infantry are size 2). For line of sight purposes, you use actual line of sight from the model's eye view for all non-area terrain questions. Remember, you need to actually be able to hit the hull/body of the model (typically here, we use base area up to the height of the model for monstrous creatures to not penalize dynamic poses) in order to count as having sight to it.

Area terrain is different - you cannot see over size 3 area terrain regardless of any actual line of sight. Infantry cannot see over size 2 area terrain except for things greater than size 2, and so on.
 

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resident iconoclast
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It looks like most of what has been said so far is correct. To summarize:

Both Monstrous Creatures and Rhinos are Size 3.

Monstrous Creatures and Rhinos block line of sight with their exact profile.

The fact that they are Size e does not matter except when they are interacting with Area Terrain. (or if they're in Close Combat)

So, a Rhino only blocks LOS to a Monstrous Creature if it actually prevents the attacking model from 'seeing' (i.e. drawing an unobstructed line from its head to) the monstrous creature.

As has been mentioned, you must see the 'body' of the MC--so wings or talons sticking up above the Rhino are dubious targets.
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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Line of sight over a vehicle is true line of sight. If you can draw a line from the torso of the firer to the torso of the daemon prince you can shoot him. Obviously someone standing too close to the rhino can't see anything but the side of the vehicle! Far enough back you can probably shoot him.

It is a common convention I have seen many players use to treat Monstrous Creatures as being 'A cylinder the area of the base and the height of the standard model.' for line of sight purposes. This isn't in the rulebook, but it's generally fine if everyone knows about it ahead of time. This principle doesn't commonly extrapolate to infantry however!

Also remember, an intervening vehicle that is partially obstructing your view will still grant a 4+ cover save even if it isn't wrecked.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thaks for all the replys, it seems that the ruling is fairly clear: If you can draw a bead from head of attacker to torso of prince then you are cleared to shoot.

I guess now i need to ask how strict this runling is, because i have just tested this out on my table and all the attacker can see anywhere up to at least 12"(on a flat surface) is the tops of his shoulders and ofcourse the wings, 95% of the body is covered...

Does this mean common sense prevails and he cant be shot at?

Or does it mean, i can see some of him (even tho only a very tiy bit) i can shoot him?

...and on a side note, because thye are considered the same size are there any issues with him flying over the rhinos?

Thanks again!
 

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Now with STFU flames!
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The ruling is only as strict as you and your opponent make it out to be. It's probably best to talk it out with your opponent before the game just to clear it up. Just be kind to point out that if his models can see your Prince, then your Prince can see them!

As for the last question; no. Flying models ignore terrain when making their moves. Just don't try landing on the Rhino and you'll be fine.
 

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I guess now i need to ask how strict this runling is, because i have just tested this out on my table and all the attacker can see anywhere up to at least 12"(on a flat surface) is the tops of his shoulders and ofcourse the wings, 95% of the body is covered...

Does this mean common sense prevails and he cant be shot at?

Or does it mean, i can see some of him (even tho only a very tiy bit) i can shoot him?
Well, one way you could do it is to look at how much of him is covered, and give him a corresponding cover save. If approximately 5/6 of the body is covered, you could give him a 2+ cover save, or whatever else you and your opponent think is fair. Just a thought =).

-H
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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There will always be a bit of subjectiveness with a true line of sight. I would be inclined to say no to just head and wings. You should aspire to Center of Mass to Center of Mass in my opinion. Ultimately, as the wise Caluin indicated, it's up to you and your opponent to decide. You could always award a 2+ cover save if all you can see is a bit of the enemy! While I can't see a towering Daemon Prince of Chaos getting down on his hands and knees to crawl behind a rhino and hide from fire, I think maybe he might duck his head down if he sees someone pop out with a melta gun...
 

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LO Zealot
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Also remember, an intervening vehicle that is partially obstructing your view will still grant a 4+ cover save even if it isn't wrecked.
??

Non-wrecked vehicles don't provide any kind of cover save.. It would provide Obscurement to another vehicle behind it, yes, but not a cover save to a monstrous creature (or infantry if a monstrous creature / taller vehicle is the one shooting).
 

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Suffer not the Unclean
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p25 Cover Summary Table

Wrecks / Vehicles

It doesn't come up too terribly often since there aren't a whole lot of vehicles in the game that you can hide behind to take cover and be partially visible. Especially with imperial vehicles you're more or less hidden completely behind it or not.

The only time I remember it ever coming up is with immobilised Eldar skimmers, where it's possible for friendly troops to take cover around the front parts and be partially visible.
 

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or vypers, or shooting between dreads legs, or wraithlord legs for tha matter, or....

Anyways, as stated time and again, LOS is done MEV (model eye view) unless shooting OVER closecombat OR area terrain. Then, and only then does the size classifcication enter into it.

Yes, you can model all your models shrunk down so they gain a slight advantage for hiding, but it is a two way street, as they no longer have LOS to the same stuff they are hiding from.
 

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The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss
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Thaks for all the replys, it seems that the ruling is fairly clear: If you can draw a bead from head of attacker to torso of prince then you are cleared to shoot.

I guess now i need to ask how strict this runling is, because i have just tested this out on my table and all the attacker can see anywhere up to at least 12"(on a flat surface) is the tops of his shoulders and ofcourse the wings, 95% of the body is covered...

Does this mean common sense prevails and he cant be shot at?

Or does it mean, i can see some of him (even tho only a very tiy bit) i can shoot him?

!
P.21 BGB, last seven lines of first paragraph. That's how "strict" the ruling is! So in your cited situation, you could not shoot at the DP over the Rhino.

Also, I would tend to take the LOS bead from the shooter's weapon rather than his head, as otherwise this could give a slight but unfair height advantage to the shooter regarding a successful acquisition of LOS. In other words, if the weapon is at high port, then check LOS from the head. If it is at normal level, then check it from the waist.

E.
 
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