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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was throwing a few thoughts around and came up with this one.

Scourges should be fast attack. Other than the dark lances which they aren't particularly good with there isn't anything extremely heavy on this unit. Now if you give them the splinter cannons they can move and shoot making them pretty quick in my opinion especially with the range of the cannon. Good hit and run unit in my opinion.

What do yall think?
 

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I think that their reasoning for making them a Heavy Support unit is because the unit is designed to lay down fire with their heavy weapons, not for assault. They are designed to be a very mobile fire base.

Most fast attack units (Tau army aside), are generally designed with an assault role in mind, scourges are not (though you can assault with them, their VERY HIGH points cost makes it a big risk to hurl them into combat).

Also, by making scourges into a fast attack choice, you could totally cheese out your list with something like 3 ravagers and 3 scourge units. Against non-MEQ armies (and even against most MEQ armies), this list would be very over-powering IMO.

Anyways, those are my thoughts, what does everyone else think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
agreed on the last points.

As for the assualt purpose for fast attack: Pretty much most dark eldar units are assualting units. Seems like a special circumstance could be made just like the Tau.
 

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Also, by making scourges into a fast attack choice, you could totally cheese out your list with something like 3 ravagers and 3 scourge units. Against non-MEQ armies (and even against most MEQ armies), this list would be very over-powering IMO.
I don't think so...that implies that scourges with SCs would be a powerful choice without ravagers as well, but they are merely "acceptable".

Even against excellent targets such as orks they need about four turns of shooting at full effect (no own casualties taking away SCs meanwhile) to earn their points back.
If lots of SC scourges are cheesy, then so are warrior squads that max out on SCs.
 

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Right, but by making them a fast attack choice, not only could you max out on ravagers, and scourges, but you could STILL maximise the ammount of splinter cannons in warrior squads.
If you were a nid/ork/guardsman/firewarrior/kroot then how would you like to be getting hit by 24 splinter cannons (thats 96 shots) a turn before finally having to face DE in CC... in the words of Captain Tarpal, "Ouch time."

It could also just as easily be used to max out on Dark Lances, making it VERY potent for any MEQ army, while costing the same ammount of points. I think it is more balanced to force you to choose between taking more ravagers, more scourges, or just a mix of the two.
 

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If Scourges did become Fast Attack, they'd definitely change. They'd no longer be able to take Dark Lances and even their Splinter Cannons would be probably reduced to a maximum of two. Perhaps the option of Blasters or Shredders would be added, but four Cannons would be out of the question. It's probably best to leave them as Heavy Support.
 

· Born from Tears of Angels
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Blasters and shredders arent a good option for scourges, cause you pay all those points for a practical warrior with a special weapon, i dont think its worth it since the good thing about scourges is their ability to eliminate targets that are at least 24" away and retreat befre enemy strikes back.
This keeps them at safe distance from CC, if you give em blasters and shredders, there will be a high chance tha they will be assalted in CC and thts bad, they die just as easy as a warrior so you lose all the points for nothing. On the other hand, if their stats would be upgraded (Better save for example), blasters and shredders would get a whole new value since scorges would ale thold their own in CC. Thats my opinion at least.
Also scourges should be able to use dls while deepstriking cause sc armed scouges would be the only reasonable choice in 2nd edition

P.S (The fast attack option is a good idea in my opinion)
 

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Right, but by making them a fast attack choice, not only could you max out on ravagers, and scourges, but you could STILL maximise the ammount of splinter cannons in warrior squads.
If you were a nid/ork/guardsman/firewarrior/kroot then how would you like to be getting hit by 24 splinter cannons (thats 96 shots) a turn before finally having to face DE in CC... in the words of Captain Tarpal, "Ouch
That still doesn't make them cost effective - even against orks.

Four SCs need 3.33 rounds of continuous fire before they killed the scourges worth points of boyz, and that discounts the possibility that the boyz will get cover saves, which increases it to 5 rounds of continuous fire against a soft target such as ork boyz - assuming they suffer no own casualties. Throw in a few big shootas in the ork mob and the orks will actually outshoot the scourges! And even quite easily so. Two big shootas will do the job, and they can have three.

A mob of orks with two big shootas versus a squad of scourges of even higher cost. The scouregs even get the first volley:

Scourge shooting:
48pts out of 158pts of orks dead
Ork shooting:
40pts of 160pts of scourges dead, only 3.33 SCs available, morale test required.
Scourge shooting:
40pts of orks dead, 88 in total
Ork shooting:
60pts of scourges dead, 100pts i total. Only 1.66 SCs left, morale test required.
Scourge shooting:
20pts of orks killed, 108pts in total.
Ork shooting:
Scourges wiped out.

Fire warriors...well, the scourges shoot, kill 3-4 of them, then the remaining 12-13 fire warriors that one can get for the points of the scourges will wipe them out with a single volley.

And before i have seen an army that maxed out all of its troop choices and wishes for more to get SCs in first instance. They are nice weapons, but using scourges to max out on them just isn't viable. They can be a fun unit to use to pick off weakened and isolated squads, but they have no place in a shooty army from hell that is geared towards maximum efficiency.

Another aspect:
A SC scourge costs as much as 4.5 normal warriors. These warriors can dish out 4.5 rifle shots then. Not on the move and at lower strength, but if they get to shoot they still provide 75% of the scourge's firepower against T4 (and 84% against T3), while having four wounds on the table.
And when the enemy comes closer, they can advance and come up with 150% (168% against T3) of that scourge's firepower within a 18" radius. Splinter rifles are underestimated.


A 100pts squad of warriors with two SCs that remains stationary will score 83% as many kills against orks as 160pts of scourges, will having twice as many wounds on the table.
Once the enemy is within 18" they even will kill 117% as much as the scourges.
If extrapolated to the cost, this means that stationary warriors kill 133% as many orks as equal points of scourges, and moving and double tapping warriors even kill 186% as many orks.
 

· Born from Tears of Angels
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Dont be so detailed about scourges, I mean yes they are expensive and probably not worth the points but at least they are fun to play with. Besides they are really good against nids, guardsmen and other races that rely on numbers rather then quality of the units.
But I still do agree that they are considerably weak for what the do, but I think its fun to have em around just like jetbikes. If you play to have fun rather then to win, scourges would be a good choice.
 

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The thing to remember is Dark Eldar take finesse to be effective and the Scourge take this to the extreme.

Now, to be totally blunt, the Scourge are overpriced in my opinion. For the same cost of eight Scourges with four cannons, you could have two units of 10 Warriors with two cannons each, and a freed up heavy slot.
I'll be the first to tell you that the Scourge are probably the worst choice a DE commander can include in his army.

However, the strength of the Scourge is the ability to single handedly cause enough wounds (in theory) to make an enemy take a panic check just from their shooting alone.

Consider shooting at Guardsmen. A five man squad of Scourges with four cannons is roughly points equivalent to two Guardsmen squads with upgrades (20 men, two heavy weapons and two special weapons).
If you stand and trade shots with the Guardsmen, you'll undoubtedly lose.
But figure this, with four cannons, you get 16 shots, of about 11 hit, and seven wound (modify this on the instance of cover).
If you can position the Scourges to where the cannons are only within range of six or seven Guardsmen from one squad, then you'll nearly guarantee that you can kill everyone that can shoot back at you (save for heavy weapons) in the following turn (provided that you have blocked LOS to the other squad, I told you this took extreme finess).
Killing seven Guardsmen is almost like killing 10 Guardsmen, as they can easily break if an Officer isn't around and will go running off the table.
With your jump packs, you might be able to do this again and again without ever taking any return fire.
(This is the same tactic at putting yourself just within range of a Tyranid line, so that casualties you induce effectively 'push back' the bugs.)

Also, the ability to Deepstrike regardless of rules is outstanding when you need to contest tablequarters or the like.
 

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...and then exactly the armies against which this can work often also have nasty indirect firing weapons. Mortars.

Furthermore...even against guardsmen scourges have a hard time to earn their points back. If you count in morale, then the same has to be considered for scourges too. They lose two in one turn and have to take a morale check on 8 or run...and if they lose another model they cannot even regroup.
 
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