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Hi there, i dont know if anyone can shed any light on this matter but....

it seems to me that shoota boys are now more effective than sluggas, basically shoota boys get an extra two shots per turn at st4 (albeit at bs2) for a loss in one (usually) st3 attack. Say over the course of two turns you charge your mob of orks towards the enemy. The shoota boys will get to shot twice then charge (for example) so they would get 4 st4 shots from the shootas, plus 3 st4 attacks from the charge. Sluggas on the other hand only get 2 st4 shots from the pistols, then 4 st4 attacks. In effect, one attack from a slugga boy (usually hitting on a 4+) equates to 2 st4 shoota shots (hitting on 5s) in this case.

Once you take into account the range on the shootas and the fact they can still move and fire(meaning even more shots put out over the course of the game) it seems to me that this is much more effective than an extra one attack that half of the time is going to be at base strength anyways.

If anyone has any thought on this matter please feel free to elaborate, thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Zezza
 

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Hi there, i dont know if anyone can shed any light on this matter but....

it seems to me that shoota boys are now more effective than sluggas, basically shoota boys get an extra two shots per turn at st4 (albeit at bs2) for a loss in one (usually) st3 attack. Say over the course of two turns you charge your mob of orks towards the enemy. The shoota boys will get to shot twice then charge (for example) so they would get 4 st4 shots from the shootas, plus 3 st4 attacks from the charge. Sluggas on the other hand only get 2 st4 shots from the pistols, then 4 st4 attacks. In effect, one attack from a slugga boy (usually hitting on a 4+) equates to 2 st4 shoota shots (hitting on 5s) in this case.

Once you take into account the range on the shootas and the fact they can still move and fire(meaning even more shots put out over the course of the game) it seems to me that this is much more effective than an extra one attack that half of the time is going to be at base strength anyways.

If anyone has any thought on this matter please feel free to elaborate, thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Zezza

Zezza, your entire logic is based on footslogging. Now factor in the Boys blazin' in on a Trukk, and you'll see that the Shootas won't compare to Sluggas. With the Trukk, more Boyz should make it to the charge faster, making good use of WS4 S4 charge attacks. I know you're unimpressed by the S3 attacks in subsequent rounds of CC, but this is where the Powerklaw Nob will shine.

And as Triumph mentioned already, RAW, Shoota Nobz can't take Powerklaws...
 

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Yes your right shootas are better especially since they have longer range assault 2 weapons, even if they lose out on an extra attack in CC. Adding in the fact that they can have a pk nob if you use RAW they are even better. They only lose out when you put them on a truck, on a truck sluggaz are much better, just because the shootaz wont be able to fire as many shots.
 

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Iv only played a couple games so far but, unless your doing a weird list, the orks aim for combat. And in order to do effecient ork combat you need to swarm the enemy. So in other words your going to want most of your troops in combat.

Realisticaly an ork army aiming for combat will only take 2 mabey 3 turns of shooting on foot. A well played speed freak army, wont get a single shot off on the way to combat(you dont want line of sight to you trucks but that works both ways) and you will probly aim your troops for key targets eliminating key shooting targets. An Ork army played well will spend alot of time in combat for that point onward.

So I think that foot sloggers will make better use of shootas than Trukkers, and given that they wont nessisarily charge, your forfieting 1 str 3 in2 attack, for at least 4-6 shots which means at least a couple hits and wounds. Trucks on the other hand will make little use considering the turn they deploy they will be fleeting most likley.
 

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Shooty!

So I think that foot sloggers will make better use of shootas than Trukkers, and given that they wont nessisarily charge, your forfieting 1 str 3 in2 attack, for at least 4-6 shots which means at least a couple hits and wounds. Trucks on the other hand will make little use considering the turn they deploy they will be fleeting most likley.

This sums it up nicely. If they're in a trukk, use slugga boyz. If they're slogging, use shoota boys.

In general, the new orks are SHOOTY, with a capital...well, everything. BS2 means nothing when your basic troops are firing 60 shots a turn, at strength 4, while moving.

This doesn't only go for troops, as all the best elites, fast attack and heavy support units focus on shooting. Granted, stormboys, and most of the HQs, are still close combat focused, and the orks can't outshoot Tau or IG, but they can now stand toe to toe in a gunfight with the Marines, Necron and Eldar.

On a side note, a sample ork army in White Dwarf magazine, using the new ork codex rules, include a shoota boy mob with a power klaw nob in it. If it's in White Dwarf, that's the way it is.
 

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I myself actually prefer Slugga boyz either way. The ability to take a PK nob is a major boon for sluggas. But even barring that fact, I find that many of the new rules for footsloggers lend themselves better to Sluggas. Since we have the WAAAAGH! curing shooting phase, that takes away one firing phase right there. Next, should we get the charge, 80 S4 attacks that can actually hit will do much better then 80 S4 shots that can't hit (Assuming we even get a round of shooting).
 

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Admittedly, some assumptions

I myself actually prefer Slugga boyz either way. The ability to take a PK nob is a major boon for sluggas. But even barring that fact, I find that many of the new rules for footsloggers lend themselves better to Sluggas. Since we have the WAAAAGH! curing shooting phase, that takes away one firing phase right there. Next, should we get the charge, 80 S4 attacks that can actually hit will do much better then 80 S4 shots that can't hit (Assuming we even get a round of shooting).
First of all, I'm going with the assumption that shoota nobz can use power klaws. There really isn't any significant evidence that they can't, there's more than reasonable evidence they can, and I believe people have blown it out of proportion.

Regardless, I'd still want to use shoota boyz in the big mobz, and if necessary, I'd attach an independent warboss, or special character, to provide the klaw. Although sluggas seem tempting, you have to consider that depending on the army you're facing, reaching your opponent can be very difficult. With only 12in single shot guns, you'll barely hit them, and if they have fleet, increased movement, transports or other similar features, you may never catch them at all. If you're chasing the same troops with 18in two shot shoota boyz, you can keep killing them even if you can't reach close combat.

I've tried slogging sluggas, and although they do good against some armies, they do horribly against the mobile eldar, dark eldar and tau. Also, Chaos 'lash' is particularly effective against them, as they can keep the sluggas constantly out of range of shooting, let along actual close combat.

Now, if you're using Ghazghkull, that might be another story, as you'll have a free 6in WAUGGGHHHHH, guaranteed. Normally, however, shoota boyz are going to be far more effective when slogging.
 

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Here's a curveball to throw into this debate: Rumored 5th Edition Run Rule

Run - All units, might just be infantry, but regardless all infantry units can "run". During your shooting phase, instead of shooting a unit can move d6". However, a unit that runs in its shooting phase can not assault in its assault phase. Only units with fleet can assault after a run.

So, with foot slogging slugga boyz you can get their even quicker and don't need use of a Wierdboy for an "extra" Waaagh. 1st turn you can move 6" and run d6", 2nd turn move another 6", Waaagh run for d6" and assault 6". In 2 turns you can cover 18 + 2d6".
 

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I like it

Here's a curveball to throw into this debate: Rumored 5th Edition Run Rule

Run - All units, might just be infantry, but regardless all infantry units can "run". During your shooting phase, instead of shooting a unit can move d6". However, a unit that runs in its shooting phase can not assault in its assault phase. Only units with fleet can assault after a run.

So, with foot slogging slugga boyz you can get their even quicker and don't need use of a Wierdboy for an "extra" Waaagh. 1st turn you can move 6" and run d6", 2nd turn move another 6", Waaagh run for d6" and assault 6". In 2 turns you can cover 18 + 2d6".
If this is true, this is really going to help footslogging armies, without tipping the balance of power too much. It's nice, because characters with fleet still get the 13-18in movement into assault every turn, and footsloggers can actually get to close combat around 3 or 4, instead of 5, 6 or never.

If true, this definitely swings the debate in favor of slugga boyz, as the shoota boyz most likely won't be firing anyway.
 

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No offence Monkeyclops, but unless your dead sure about that, its probly not something to count on. I don't think were any where near 5th edition, I dont think we will see it untill 2009 we still have dark elday, imp guard, deamons, all 3 hunters ( Xenos hunters are supposedly comming) and necrons in this edition.

But all throw my own curve ball at this, what if we have weird boys in our army ? They could put some more WAGGGHHH to our army and therefore les DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA (yes im an ork at heart)
 

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No offence Monkeyclops, but unless your dead sure about that, its probly not something to count on. I don't think were any where near 5th edition, I dont think we will see it untill 2009 we still have dark elday, imp guard, deamons, all 3 hunters ( Xenos hunters are supposedly comming) and necrons in this edition.
There are rumors abound about the 5th Edition rules coming out this year, as early as the summer. Also, like there was a leaked version of the new Ork Codex, there is a leaked version of the 5th Edition rules. Since there is currently no leak of DE, IG or even Daemons yet, I think its safe to say that the 5ed rules are coming sooner rather than later (though the current rumor-mill puts Daemons this Spring, then 5th Ed, then IG later this year).
 

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I don't keep up with rumors so well but the deamons book was mentioned in the second to last WD, along with the summary of the past year.

Sorry about keeping ooff topic! I vote Sluggas. :)
Alright, in an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I'm going to make a bold, and potentially controversial statement.

Are you ready?

Shoota boy mobz, point for point, are the best units in 40k.

Dark Eldar warriors come in a close second, but Shoota boyz have a toughness of 4, furious charge, assault weapons that fire two shots a turn, waugggghhhhh, unit sizes up to 30, the option to take big shootas (equivalent of heavy bolters) and rokkits (equivalent of missle launchers), two base attacks, leadership equal to their unit size, and leaders that can take power klaws.

All that for 6 points a piece, the same price of a basic IG troop.
 

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Hmm...From what i've played against, shootaz are best walking and sluggaz should be in a trukk. And the Shootaz should have a max squad.
 

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True enough

Nah, 30 shootas is a pain in the arse to move around. 20 is enough to get things done without having to worry about leadership for awhile.
I don't think 20 troops are enough to make sure the boyz make it to CC, but you have a point. 30 troops is a lot to move around as one squad. Regardless, I'd still use at least 23 guys. Just from experience, 20 is a little light, unless there's a lot of cover.

20 boyz + 2 Big shoota or Rokkit boyz + 1 Nob w/PK

Yeah, that sounds about right.
 

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Agreed

Consider 20 to be the absolute minimum for footsloggers. I'd go 23 sure, but I'd never go up to 30 for the extra heavy weapon.
Agreed. This also can be nice if you're fielding battlewagons, that way you have the option to transport them, if you so choose.
 
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