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Pure Venom.
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So i was bored, and i figured for such an undoubtedly cool weapon, the shotgun is grossly underpowered. So here are some incredibly indepth new rules for the shotgun i thought up - yes, i am aware they're complex, and will most likely only suit for kill team, but they add a whole new area of realism and fun to an otherwise useless weapon - oh! And a cookie for the first person to figure out the reference mentioned below:

Alternate shotgun rules
Shotguns, whilst loud, crude, and vastly ineffective at long range, can turn into devastating killing machines up close. At the closest of ranges, they can slice through even power armour, can still cause horrendous damage to the weaker foe. At a certain level of course, the pellets become merely an annoyance, but the proficiency at piercing armour remains.

Shotgun general rules

Range:12”........................Str:3...................AP:Variable...............Template(special)

Variable AP: At closer ranges, the shotgun becomes vastly more powerful. This is represented with the following rule:
When fired at maximum range, 12”, the shotgun has an AP of 6.
At 8”, an AP of 5.
At 4”, an AP of 4.
At the ludicrously close distance of 1”, the shotgun counts as having an AP of 3.

Wide fire arc: As range increases, the blast of buckshot covers a wider area. To represent this, place the flamer template when you fire the shotgun. Instead of every model under the template taking a hit, the closest model(s) to the firer take a hit and all models directly behind them are unharmed. In effect, a column the width of the first casualty is taken through the template, behind the first casualty and nothing within that column is hurt. Note that this means another “edge” of the blast can carry on and hit more enemies. Note that a model that is only half in the blast wave is not affected by the variable AP rule, and suffers a blast with an AP of 6.

Zombie killer: As Inquisitor Brutus Campbell (cookie for anyone who can get the reference there) discovered when fighting the undead in M40, the shotgun is highly effective at destroying zombies and the like. As such, anything with the mark of Nurgle, or affiliated with Nurgle in any form, and any zombies suffer double wounds from shotguns and must therefore roll two armour saves for every one wound.


Well, tell me what you think.

LoC


[/B]

 
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Slave to the flesh
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3,354 Posts
Very cool! I would like shotguns that are killing machines. One thing the 1" should be increased to 2" (as a model isn't allowed within 1" of an enemy).

Bruce Campbell? wasn't he something to do with evil dead?
 

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Pure Venom.
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The_Outsider said:
Very cool! I would like shotguns that are killing machines. One thing the 1" should be increased to 2" (as a model isn't allowed within 1" of an enemy).

Bruce Campbell? wasn't he something to do with evil dead?
Good point about the 1", i'll do something about it when the edit function stops crashing my browser.

And as for the whole Brutus - Bruce Campbell thing - Bruce Campbell did indeed have something to do with evil dead - he played Ash. Well done, and rep to The_Outsider!

LoC
 

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I don't think the shotgun should have a max AP of 3, even at the closest range - that's slighty too overpowered.
 

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Tyranid Warrior Fanatic
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Not really. At that short of range at most you will hit 1 enemy at ap3 and two more enemies at ap6. Its really not over-powered at all.
 

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Not meaning to bring you down but shotguns are known for horid penetration. This is why they are favored for home defence hear in the states. An intruder can be shot and any misses wont go through your wall an into your daughter. This happens because the force is spread over a bunch of small pellets not concentrated to a fine point. You could use the grenade launcher rules but use the flame templete. Call the frag 'Spread shells' and the krak 'Solid shot shells'
 

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that seems completly fair because shotguns blow right now. I showed this to my SM friend and we were gonna playtest these rules to see how they work.
 

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Very nice! I always thought that the shotgun should be able to use the template. This would make taking my beloved Adeptus Arbites more appealing....
 

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zombie killer - doesn't make sense, needs clarification (does the shotgun inflict 2 wounds to zombies, or do they just get 2 armor saves and take the worse of the two??)

variable ap - drop it. ranges are already wrong in the game... don't make matters worse...

give it either AP (shotgun slugs) or a template (shot/pellets)

but then,
that's 10 templates a turn from a Arbites squad,
and that's just over the top for horde-control...
 

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ISIS Secret Agent Squishy
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the other way to show that the shotgun has pellet spread is to have it
"if the target is in base to base contact with any one other friendly model, then that additional model is also hit at xS, as long as that additional model has direct LOS. A maximum of 2 models can be hit by any one shotgun"
or something like that anyway
 

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Tyranid Warrior Fanatic
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..... It says that only the first models are hit, so generally the most that will be hit are 3 or 4, with 2 of them being partials. It lloks like a lot of people just skimmed the rules and didn't read through them very well.
 

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Well these rules are certainly interesting. They are however, a bit too complicated to be practical IMO.

Firstly the zombie killer rule needs to be clarified, however they way I interpret it would make it overpowered against undead and nurgle armies. Basically I just don't like rules that target certain armies and make it easier to kill them, this just messes with the balance that GW tries so hard to keep.

As for the rest of the rules, I think the same sort of effect could be gained using simpler rules. Here's my idea.. Give it the small blast marker rather than the flamer template, this will make it simpler to determine who gets hit and ought to result in about the same number of hits. Also simplify the variable AP rule, rather than having 4 different APs, give it AP 6 at full range, AP 4 at half range. I think that would make it much easier to use while keeping a similar effect.
 

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I like to keep this handy, for close encounters.

Well honestly, while you can get a spread pattern with a shotgun, its not going to work like any kind of template, because as said earlier, the penetration on the spread out pellets isn't usually good enough to penetrate much past a body. And again, realistically, comparing the effectiveness of a shotgun to a bolter fluffwise, there is no contest. So what I propose is not to make a shotgun a better ranged weapon but to make it into someting unusual....

Given that 40K now thrives on simple game stats and rules, here's my two cents to make a shotgun useful where it should be useful, in assaults.


Game stats remain the same. Str 3 Assault 2 ect. Except now shotguns can be used in hth like pistols.

Any unit with a shotgun is assumed to be armed with a CCW as well, so they get the extra attack. This way, bolt pistols are still useful because they have a higher strength, but shotguns get more firing on the way in, and you don't sacrifice hth capability.
 

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LO Zealot
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heh, yeah the rules are too complicated for overall wh40k playability. Or atleast for those who dont like to think a lot. though I'd give you kudos for cool ideas and awesome in depth rules :p
 

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Pure Venom.
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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Right then, i've changed the rules slightly - bear in mind this was only intended for things like killteam and themed games, as it would likely be impractical with a larger game (in the old rules, an entire squad of hive gangers could have shotguns!), but don't let this stop you. I've also changed it so the zombie killer rule only effects zombies, nothing else, and included a badly-drawn diagram to explain the spray effect a bit better. The AP 3 has been changed, to represent the fact that the force of the shotgun undoubtedly increases with proximity to target, even if the armour piercing doesn't:

Alternate shotgun rules

Shotguns, whilst loud, crude, and vastly ineffective at long range, can turn into devastating killing machines up close. At the closest of ranges, they can knock down even the toughest of foes, and can cause horrendous damage. At a certain range of course, the pellets simply become an annoyance, but up close the shotgun is the king of the battlefield.

Shotgun general rules

Range:12”........................Str:3(X)............ .......AP:6...............Template(special)

Variable strength: At closer ranges, the shotgun becomes vastly more powerful. This is represented with the following rule. If fired at most ranges, the shotgun is fairly useless at wounding tougher foes, and as such uses it's standard strength of 3. But many Chaos-may-care stormtroopers or arbites enforcers have experimented with firing them at incredibly close ranges, and have found vastly pleasing results. As such, when firing a shotgun at a range of 2" or less, they count as having a strength equal to the target's toughness.


Wide fire arc: As range increases, the blast of buckshot covers a wider area. To represent this, place the flamer template when you fire the shotgun. Instead of every model under the template taking a hit, the closest model(s) to the firer take a hit and all models directly behind them are unharmed. In effect, a column the width of the first casualty is taken through the template, behind the first casualty and nothing within that column is hurt. Note that this means another “edge” of the blast can carry on and hit more enemies. Note that a model that is only half in the blast wave is not affected by the variable strength rule, and suffers a blast with an strength of 2. This is shown below:

View attachment 49



Zombie killer: As Inquisitor Brutus Campbell discovered when fighting the undead in M40, the shotgun is highly effective at destroying zombies. As such, any zombies suffer double wounds from shotguns and must therefore re-roll all succesful armour saves taken from shotgun wounds.



I'm also working on some rules for different shotgun ammunition - solid shot, incendiary rounds, etc. So watch this space!

LoC
 

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It sounds simpler now. If you do make more ammo types, keep it at two, to avoid alot of confusion and hassle.
 

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Slave to the flesh
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Much better, these rules are worthy of playtesting indeed!

How about for additional ammunition try a solid shot-
As a shotgun is designed for close quarter shooting equipping it with solid rounds reduces it versatility so when using solid round it has the following profile

Range 12' STR 4 AP 5 (Pistol or heavy)
 

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ISIS Secret Agent Squishy
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I don't know why I didn't think of it before, the unofficial Adeptus Arbites codex that's floating around on the net has stats for Executioner rounds for the shotgun (Rg 18" S4 AP5 Heavy1 - reroll miss). All you need to do for "buckshot" is give it stats of (RG 12" S2 AP- Flamer template). And possibly change it to one handed (allowing it in CC)
This would give you three options
A) Standard assault 2 shotgun
B) Hard hitting single shot shotgun
C) Weak power single shot Template
each option would have benefits for various situations while reducing the number of needed rules
What do you think of those changes?
 

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Slave to the flesh
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mpdscott's are simpler but Lordofchange's are more fluffy hmmmm....

In pratical terms the rules mpdscott suggested are more likely and easier to integrate into the game. Lordofchange's would only work to its potential in killteam.

Maybe give the shotgun different profiles for each game mode (standard 40k and killteam)?
 

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It's a Trap!
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This stupid topic comes up every 6 weeks. Shotguns are the way they are because they needed an assault weapon for the guard and shotguns are a conveniant way to do it. The guy who made it also probably liked the feel of shotguns. Giving them ap is kinda dumb because they're made to be assault lasguns. Plus for this much spread, you need to cut down the shotgun so that there literaly wouldn't be a barrel and it would be too good.

You also are just making them too good in general. It is a normal weapon.
 
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