[MobiusPrime]

Are skirmishers still -1 to hit when they are engaged in close combat? As far as I know, this situation only occurs when Skaven are involved.

 

[ArchonFarseerGuy]

I don't know a whole lot about that Skaven rule, not having read the Army Book. However, I'd say that you don't. From a rules perspective:
*You could argue that it doesn't mention them losing their Skirmish rule.
*You could also argue that they rank up for combat so don' count.

But from a fluff perspective, I'd say they all get up close together to fight the enemy as per their training, so they're no different to any other unit in combat.

That's why I'd suggest they don't get their -1 to hit, but I could well be wrong.

-AFG

 

[Rork]

Are skirmishers still -1 to hit when they are engaged in close combat? As far as I know, this situation only occurs when Skaven are involved.

Hmm. Good question.

Technically, yes. When skirmishers are shot at by any BS-based weapon they're at -1 to hit. A unit in combat is still a unit of skirmishers.

Skirmishers are only really ranked up for convenience, and their loose formation is just represented by their lack of rank bonus (Let's not start on beast herds ) instead. (And a unit of skirmishers outside of combat in BtB with each other would still be at -1 to hit)

But equally they're fighting closer together, making them an easier target. This particular scenario has no specific answer, so you either follow the rules as they stand or agree something with your opponent.

 

[MobiusPrime]

Skirmishers are only really ranked up for convenience, and their loose formation is just represented by their lack of rank bonus (Let's not start on beast herds ) instead. (And a unit of skirmishers outside of combat in BtB with each other would still be at -1 to hit)

Thank you! Damn some people can be so stubborn. My argument was this exact thing (that if my skirmishers are nut to butt out of combat, they'd still be 'skirmishing'. Notwithstanding, let's not get into the situation where half of a skirmishing unit is nut to butt and the other is up to 1" apart.

 

[frozencore]

Skirmishers give -1 to hit them in combat or not. They have a -1 to hit them because they are skirmishers and if they are in combat they do not lose the skirmishers special rule, so it would still be -1 to hit.

 

[cybersharque]

Hmm, sharqy iz very confoodled. Sharyky see experienced player what sez "Skirmishers give -1 to hit them in combat or not. They have a -1 to hit them because they are skirmishers and if they are in combat they do not lose the skirmishers special rule, so it would still be -1 to hit."

Sharqy looks at dis BRB book thingk, he sees page 28 in the shootin' rules dat shootin' at skirmishas gets -1 to hit the target. He goez lookin' at de close up smackin' rulez which he finds on page 32 and 33 and 34 for hittin' yur target. And he don't find no stinkin' rule about skirmishas. Or single models. Or models what moved. He don't find rules about bein' under soft covuh nor hahrd covuh neether.

So Sharqy goes back and reads the rules about how to see if you hits your target.

How you calculate shooting hits goes by completely different rule than CC hits. Cpmpletely and totally and radically different. CC has "defended obstacles" instead of hard/soft cover. And so on. The rules are different.

My own take on shooting at skirmishers is this: they get a -1 penalty to shooting attacks as long as they are in skirmish formation. If you come to the table in the spirit of traditional miniatures gaming, the answer is obvious that once skirmishers rank up for close combat, they are no longer in skirmish formation. I don't need no steenking ruling in the book to tell me this. But YMMV & ATR.

 

[BFGMidwesternPrisoner]

Skirmishers give -1 to hit them in combat or not. They have a -1 to hit them because they are skirmishers and if they are in combat they do not lose the skirmishers special rule, so it would still be -1 to hit.

Agreed. I think skirmishers keep their ability to be more difficult to hit.


Their special rule doesn't appear to go away. (Warhammer rules are overwhelmingly inclusive, if something says you have something, and nothing else redacts it, and the rule itself didn't tell you it didn't work in X circumstance, well you have it still).

The special rule says they are -1 to hit when you shoot at them. So when you shoot at them, since nothing took that rule away, they're minus one to hit. You shouldn't just strip a rule from a unit type without some book backing for it, which does not exist here.

Unless Skaven in this situation get some special rule in their firing which negates them having to take the normal bonuses and penelties to shooting, they need to be taking the -1 like normal. Just because they can shoot when others couldn't, unless their rules say they can ignore modifiers, they don't suddenly get to ignore them. If their rule just lets them invoke the normal rules, they still should have to invoke the normal rules. (before the roll they have to do to see if they hit their own troops correct? see note at the end)

Unless some FAQ says otherwise, or a core book rule exists none of us here have noticed yet. Or, again, unless the Skaven book says they're allowed to ignore it in that circumstance.


Now you can fluff argue it either way but I think the stronger case agrees with the rules anyway (and in general, I think the rules should be defaulted too anyway).

On the one hand... are they or aren't they bunched up enough? Does just being in formation means they aren't skirmishers?

On the other hand... nothing says they aren't skirmishes does it, in fact special rules for them in CC... no ranks... imply they ARE still skirmishing to some extent and something stays differant about them compared to normal troop formations.

While they're assembled like normal units for GAMES convienance, Skirmishes don't get rank bonuses, so they clearly aren't as "tight" even in their ranked up formation as normal troops.

Plus we already know the actual combat isn't nicely lined up models, their is some intermixing even amoung normal units. If Skirmishers are moreso then that, sounds like it's appropriate to let them keep their rule.

Given nothing says their rule goes away, I don' t see how anyone could just 'make up' their own rule which suddenly hinders a class of units. The normal units are intermixed to an extent... skirmish units would seem to be even more so... hence why they're skirmishers... and hence why a rule they have should stay in effect since nothing takes it away, and the rules say it applies.


Either way there, fluff is their for fun, not for rules balance. That's what the rules are for.


Rule wise you have a rule, which says one thing, isn't contradicted, and isn't negated.

Seems to me like you have to stick to it...

(sorry, my Skaven army book is the only one I don't keep on me day to day, again if it has some exception to this fair game... but otherwise, the rule stays in effect even if it's inconvienant for one of the players at that time)