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Nox
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1,705 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well an interesting idea just popped into my head.

Two sorcerers, one with MoS, Lash and a Bike. The other with MoT, Warptime, Wind of Chaos, and a Bike. Hide them behind cover, then use lash to move a unit into a flamer shape, cast warptime and wind with the other sorcerer, then charge with 10 power weapon attacks. They can take down anything from tanks (if you give them melta bombs, and WoC can hurt them too) to termagants. Not even Monstrous Creatures are safe!

Expensive (350ish points) but very deadly. Of course, they should only engage once you have hit the lines, to stop them being Insta Splattered.

Any thoughts on this?
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
The Lash of Submission is actually one of the rare things in the game which has geniune synergy with other things. One of its notable uses is certainly packing its victims into the appropriate shapes for template and blast weapons.

That being said, my initial response to your post is, "well, good for you. You realized that two dead killy units, working together, can...really kill some stuff right dead. Woo."

Still, props for the idea. Picking out the most dangerous template that can really be matched with the Lash and putting them on two platforms (so you can use them at the same time) and making those platforms fast are all innovations which do certainly bring out the killing edge in those two units.

It just seems a little like overkill, to me. ;)
 

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Registered
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667 Posts
I had the almost the same idea, but mine involved two Sorcerers with Jump pack, Mos and
Lash. They can shepard the enemy unto the middle of the board into your firing lanes, or
even better: one uses the Lash and brings forth the Lord/Captain/Vet.Sergeant/etc., the
other charges in and uses his Force weapon.
 

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Nox
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1,705 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Just had an other even NASTIER thought. Move models so that you can kill certain models of a squad. So: move the sorcerers so that only said model is in range if you can (i.e. power fist champ, people tend to move them so theyre near where characters are). Then kill him with the bolters. THEN move the unit into assault range and gung ho!
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
I've been using Daemon Princes with Wings and the Lash, and basically doing that very thing with them. I don't bother with the bolters, though.

Simply move your Daemon Prince up there, cast the Lash, move the enemy unit, but string them out so that the Powerfist guy is closest to the Prince and there's only one model within 2" of him. Your Prince is hard pressed to fail to kill two guys on the charge, so he pretty reliably gets rid of the powerfist with his swings. Sure, he doesn't kill anything else, but he still gets stuck in combat, and he won't take any damage back.

Works like a charm ;)

Well, except for that one time when I charged some Grey Knights. Two Princes, ten swings; they killed a total of three guys and both died to the Grey Knights' swings. It was very embarrassing.
 

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Nox
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1,705 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Nae luck Lefty, that mustve been painful >.<. Well, can anyone think of any other nasty uses or weaknesses of this strategy? Im planning on using it....
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
Two things:

First, I would use Daemon Princes. Sure, they can get shot, but they also are immune to instant death and notably more resilient than Sorcerers. And they're scoring units, which I think most Chaos Players are going to be wishing they had more of.

Those Daemon Princes are just amazing HQ choices, and I can't really see much appeal in taking Sorcerers in their place.

Second, make sure it's worth it. That's a lot of points in HQs. If you don't play Princes, it's a lot of points that aren't in scoring units. Try it a few times, but keep track of how much damage they're actually doing. It does seem like they should be able to kick out the casualties, but I have this suspicion that you may simply not get your money's worth out of two expensive characters if they're working in tandem.

Remember that, by having them focus on one squad, you're limiting them to killing off one squad a turn. Using them independantly, they could be each be putting the hurt on separate squads.

Anyway, give it a shot. It seems like a cool plan. Just keep an eye on it, 'cause it's the kind of thing that's likely to sucker you by being cool, but actually just drag down your army's overall effectiveness.


Also, 10th Lyran, you do actually move a unit. That just happens to be actually identical to moving each of the models in that unit.

Think about it. When you move one of your own units, you move each model in it. You can move each model however you want to move it, as long as it doesn't go more than its alloted distance and it doesn't break formation (or go through models, or too close to enemy models, or through impassable terrain, etc. etc.)

Moving a unit with Lash is exactly like moving a unit normally--except the alloted distance is detirmined randomly and they ignore difficult terrain.
 

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Nox
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Im aware of that lefty, however, the sorcerers are faster than the Daemon princes, and have Force Weapons. Making them much more effective verus big monsters.

And theyre the same Toughness, just not immune to instant death.
 

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Nox
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1,705 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Then you disagree with the majority of the forum, who use it to plac units in ordnance shapes :|

Well, if thats the way you use it then fair shout. :)
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
That's certainly all true, though remember that the DPs have an extra wound.

Also, the Sorcerers do have Force Weapons, but they can't use their force weapons and their psychic powers in the same turn, so while it adds a modicum of versatility, it doesn't actually add all that much in the way of power, since the psychic powers are usually going to be more effective.

Also remember that the Prince doesn't need a Force Weapon to be effective against Monstrous Creatures. He is a Monstrous Creature, and he can hold his own with any Monstrous Creature to which the Sorcerer poses a credible threat.

Of course, you're right that the bikes are a lot faster.

Anyway, like I said, you should definitely try it out. Sounds like it could be some good times. I was just saying that I would use Daemon Princes--cause they're awesome. ;)

Also, 10th Lyran, while it may be nice to allow your opponent to arrange the models however he wishes, it certainly isn't supported by the wording. If you're the one using the Lash, you need to set your opponents straight and start whipping them properly!
 

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Nox
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1,705 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Last thing im going to say on the subject, as i dont want this to turn into a debate. They both have very different subjects. They both have very different purposes :p

Anyway, A sorcerer (well, the tzeentch one) would be the MC killer, the slaanesh is just the "playmaker" so to speak. The Sorcerer of Tzeentch would be much better served using warptime and then charging, as wind of chaos is nowhere near as useful versus MCs. And a Daemon Prince can NOT hold his own versus a Combat Fex. It would cream him. T7 you know :p....

Archy out
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
Then you disagree with the majority of the forum, who use it to plac units in ordnance shapes :|

Well, if thats the way you use it then fair shout. :)
In the past, when we've discussed lash mechanics, there has been equal disagreement on both sides of the argument. It definitely isn't one-sided ;Y.

I get the feeling that G.W. will release clarified rules on the lash with their next errata, because no one seems to agree. I've been to sanctioned tournaments, where even the judged have difficultly reaching a consensus. However, the more I look at the lash, the more I'm inclined to believe that the RAW allows moving specific models. Now, whether or not this was G.W's intention, that's another story.

EDIT:
Hmmm, well then I guess I have been using it wrong. Lash just became a priority for all my psychic HQ's
As well it should ;)
 

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One Awesome Dude
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1,902 Posts
10th Lyran, I've also been doing what you have been doing. To be fair, I can see it going both ways. But when I play with people familiar with me, I just ask them to please move the unit X" towards me or towards their board edge, etc. In tournaments I would consider using the alternate route, but probably only against opponents with the emotional maturity to handle it.
 

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Nox
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1,705 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Bah, stop dragging my thread off topic, and stop opposing me! ;)


Anyway, what do we think about this for anti Nidzilla:

2 Tzeentchi bike sorcerers, with Bikes/Discs (both useful) with warptime. Just warptime :)
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
On this sort of thing, it's basically impossible to say what the writers were thinking.

I really think the wording is clear, and that we should ignore whatever inklings of intent we might be able to wring forth from the phrasing, but I would much prefer a clarification on the subject--if only to quell future arguments before they happen.


With regards to the MC vs. DP issue, a carnifex certainly has a lot going for him, but a 4+ invulnerable save isn't among his assets. It is among the Prince's assets. So is Warp Time and better Weapon Skill which really make up for having less swings.

I didn't say it was a forgone conclusion, but I do think that the tooled-up Prince stands a pretty reasonable chance against the tooled-up fex.

Also remember that the Sorcerer, with only five swings on the charge and sixes to wound, only has about a 41.6% chance of killing the 'Fex before the 'Fex swings. And once the 'Fex swings, the Sorcerer is basically dead.

(Also remember that he can't use Warp Time in conjunction with his Force Weapon--you can't use your Force Weapon and another psychic power in the same turn--even if you have a Mark of Tzeentch.)
 

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Nox
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1,705 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
On this sort of thing, it's basically impossible to say what the writers were thinking.

I really think the wording is clear, and that we should ignore whatever inklings of intent we might be able to wring forth from the phrasing, but I would much prefer a clarification on the subject--if only to quell future arguments before they happen.


With regards to the MC vs. DP issue, a carnifex certainly has a lot going for him, but a 4+ invulnerable save isn't among his assets. It is among the Prince's assets. So is Warp Time and better Weapon Skill which really make up for having less swings.

I didn't say it was a forgone conclusion, but I do think that the tooled-up Prince stands a pretty reasonable chance against the tooled-up fex.

Also remember that the Sorcerer, with only five swings on the charge and sixes to wound, only has about a 41.6% chance of killing the 'Fex before the 'Fex swings. And once the 'Fex swings, the Sorcerer is basically dead.

(Also remember that he can't use Warp Time in conjunction with his Force Weapon--you can't use your Force Weapon and another psychic power in the same turn--even if you have a Mark of Tzeentch.)
Yikes! Didnt notice that, ah well, theres 2 of them :p
 
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