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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Alright. Space Marine sargeants are equipped with either a bolter or a bolt pistol and close combat weapon (bp/ccw). In addition, they are allowed to buy terminator honours at 15 points, which gives them access to the armoury.

Now, once a sargeant has access to the armoury, it is allowed to purchase one one-handed weapon (1h weapon) and 1h weapon or one two-handed weapon (2h weapon). Beyond these two weapons, only one of which may be a 2-h weapon, it may purchase no other weapons from the armoury.

Then the question arises--do the bolter or bp/ccw count as having been purchased from the armoury? After all, all three are things that can be purchased from the armoury. It seems like the answer is simple, yet, if it is simple, then it seems to leave us open to some apparent problems (regardless of what you think the answer is).

If the bolter or bp/ccw don't count against the limit on weapons imposed by the Armoury, there's nothing stopping a model from having a bolt pistol, close combat weapon, power fist, and bolter--all at the same time. Your sargeants, for a mere one point beyond what they cost already (with their Terminator Honours, Bolt Pistols, and Power Fists) could be carrying around bolters, too!

On the other hand, if the bolter or bp/ccw do count against the limit of weapons imposed by the armoury, you can't have a BP/Power Fist sargeant at all! It is actually impossible. Either you'd start with a bolter and be able to buy a Power Fist only, or you'd start with a bp/ccw and not be able to buy anything (weapons wise).

Personally, I'm going to start modeling side-slung bolters on my sargeants and paying an extra point for them. Having another 24" shot is well worth the one point.

I am kinda curious to see what responses I'm likely to get to this particular caviat of the rules are, given that I just realized this is how it works.
 

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i'm not really sure what kind of argument your looking for here bean, basically the response will be "rules are what the tourney organizer says they are" and tell you that you wont be able to do it in a tournament. I wont stop you when we play, but I'm not sure who else would let you get away with it.
 

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Usually if the character already has weapons, then weapons purchased from the armoury replace them. For example: a Sergeant with a Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon may buy a Power Fist and choose to discard either his pistol or close combat weapon. However, unless I'm missing something, the rules don't seem to say if one may keep weapons for later use, rather than replacing them.
 

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Veteran sergeants

Well, I guess it really depends on the interpretation. What I basically get from the way the text on page 22 of the space marine codex as written, is that a model may have/carry up to any 2 weapons from the armory list and or force list, one of which may be two handed. So if your sergeant wanted to have a bolt pistol/power glove combo it would not be a violation because that would be with in the two weapon limit he would be caring on the field. The reason being is that he exchanged the close combat weapon for the power glove. Now it does state in the Codex (page 34 for example) that the sergeant may replace his bolter for a bolt pistol and close combat weapon, which would mean that if you had the bolter, bolt pistol, and close combat weapon, you would be in volition of two of the "rules" (2 weapon limit, replacing a weapon for another.) So, the "rule" is implied rather then stated. however, in the end if the people that you play with are ok with what you do, then it really doesn't matter does it? I would just suggest that you approach a Judge with your view on the rules before bring your army to a tournament, for he is the final word in the tournament and you could be facing an automatic forfeit if they do not agree.

I myself, with how I interpret the way the rules are written would have to say no. But that is just me.
 

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A model may only have two weapons. Of these two only one may be a two-handed weapon. You can't have three weapons. There is no loophole. Nice try.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Look, Malachi, this has been hashed out time and time again in the past. I'd like to avoid it, but the fact is--there is no rule at all which limits a model to only two weapons. If you can find this rule or quote it from somewhere, go for it.

However, I know for a fact that you can't--since such a rule doesn't exist. Think before posting.

As for the rest of, it Replacing is never mentioned. Further, the rules specific to the armoury refer to selecting weapons out of the armoury. They do not refer to carrying, owning, fielding, or anything else--just selecting them from the armoury.

Either all your weapons are selected from the armoury, or just the ones you get after the bp/ccs or bolter. Either way, the results are those I stated above.
 

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The first sentence in the armoury section in codex space marines seems to say that. At least to me anyway: "up to two weapons" generally means you can't have more than 2.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
That's because you're not reading the rest of the sentance, monkey. It says: Models with access to the armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.

It specifies the set of models to which it applies: models with access to the armoury.
It specifies what it restricts for those models: the number of weapons they may select.

Neither of which invalidate my point at all.
 

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So Bean, are you implying that a model with access to the armoury can have a maximum of four weapons? So then how would they be able to use them all in a given turn?

Its a big damned pain to admit it, but there is absolutely nothing stating that weapons selected from the armoury actually replace the weapons a model begins with. Though at the same time there are no rules stating that these new weapons do not replace the starter weapons.

In light of what we all would like to believe, it really is a loophole. The thing is that most of us, about everyone actually, write it off using common sense. Something the makers of the codex apparently did not use when making it...8)

do the bolter or bp/ccw count as having been purchased from the armoury?
To answer your question Bean, as long as we are talking about the weapons the sergeant is allowed to start off with before buying upgrades then they are free like the bolter or bolt pistol a normal marine wields. Any weapons taken after the honours cost points but not the bolter or pistol and close combat weapon.
 

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Well we could sit here and argue semantics until the universe fuses into a massive lump of iron and not get to the bottom of this. I believe I speak for the majority though when I say that it's generally considered that weapons from teh armoury replace those already on the model. And if you decide otherwise, just remember that were you to to field an army with models with 4 weapons I'd pick up my lovely models, and walk, as would rather a few others I think.
 

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I'm the stomping kind of person. I hate idiots. If you try to convince me that your Sgt can carry 4 weapons, then you are an idiot and I will quite happily stomp said Sgt until you see sense (and I wear big work boots).
 

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Not this old thing again. If you can convince someone that they can't have a bolt pistol and powerfist sergeant, or get someone to play you with characters in your army that have 3 or 4 weapons, more power to you. :rolleyes:
 

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In the army list builer "armies of the imperium" whenever you add a weapon it will ask which on it will replace so you may never have more than 2 weapons. I know it is not a rule as such but definately lets you know what the designers were intending.
I would not allow you to have more than two weapons on a sgt if you were playing against me.
 

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mpdscott said:
I hate idiots. If you try to convince me that your Sgt can carry 4 weapons, then you are an idiot and I will quite happily stomp said Sgt until you see sense .
Come on then Mr smart, where in the rulebook does it say they cant have 4 weapons? The armoury says they may select two weapons from it, but it

a) never says that they replace existing weapons
b) never says that these are the only two weapons the model may have.

Now, in 3rd edition this was detailed in the rulebook, but in 4th edition no such rule is documented.
 

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Bean said:
Look, Malachi, this has been hashed out time and time again in the past. I'd like to avoid it, but the fact is--there is no rule at all which limits a model to only two weapons. If you can find this rule or quote it from somewhere, go for it.

However, I know for a fact that you can't--since such a rule doesn't exist. Think before posting.

As for the rest of, it Replacing is never mentioned. Further, the rules specific to the armoury refer to selecting weapons out of the armoury. They do not refer to carrying, owning, fielding, or anything else--just selecting them from the armoury.

Either all your weapons are selected from the armoury, or just the ones you get after the bp/ccs or bolter. Either way, the results are those I stated above.
If you read the Armory statement on p.22 then you would understand that a model can only ever have two weapons. It clearly states that models with armory access may select up to two weapons. It doesn't say "two weapons from the armory" it says two weapons period. There is no loophole here. You can either take the weapon choices given in the tac squad entry (bolter or bp+ccw) OR you can purchase up to two weapons from the armory. Maybe it is you who needs to think, or read actually, before posting.

Where does it say a model may have more than 2 weapons? Nowhere. Arguing that you can do this because the rules don't say you cannot is not a vaild argument.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I guess even though the truth of this inevitable conclusion is even more obvious than that of the Heavy Weapon Marines with bolters, people are still going to hide from reality in their little shells of ignorance.

In retrospect, I wasn't really asking a question beyond "are there morons out there?" Since people have come on to state that they aren't willing to accept sargeants with bolters, power fists, and bolt pistols, but they are willing to accept sargeants with bolt pistols and power fists, the answer is obviously, "yes."

Thanks. That is all.
 

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Wow. I guess the whole world is wrong and you are right. Good luck finding a opponent who will let you invent rules.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
On the contrary, Malachi, at least some people agree with me. As for inventing rules, I'm not. I have detailed the set of rules which leads me to my conclusion. I have expressed that there are no rules which contradict my conclusion.

So far, neither you nor anyone else have demonstrated anything that contradicts my point. I, on the other hand, have demonstrated enough to show that, barring anything else, I am correct.

If there are rules that prove me wrong, by all means state them.

Until you do so, you're just making an ass of yourself.


If you read the Armory statement on p.22 then you would understand that a model can only ever have two weapons. It clearly states that models with armory access may select up to two weapons. It doesn't say "two weapons from the armory" it says two weapons period. There is no loophole here. You can either take the weapon choices given in the tac squad entry (bolter or bp+ccw) OR you can purchase up to two weapons from the armory. Maybe it is you who needs to think, or read actually, before posting.

Where does it say a model may have more than 2 weapons? Nowhere. Arguing that you can do this because the rules don't say you cannot is not a vaild argument.
Since you've demonstrated already that you don't see why this fails to help your point, I'll deliniate it for you.

Models may only select two weapons. Alright. The Sargeant is required to have either a bp/ccw or a bolter by the tac squad entry in the rules. There is no mechanism by which the sargeant can get rid of the weapons with which it starts.

It is cheating to have a Tactical Marine sargeant without either a bolt pistol and close combat weapon or a bolter--this is clear from the Space Marine Codex.

Now, if you're right, and the phrase in the Armoury section refers to all weapons a model has (that is, every weapon it gets--regardless of where it's from--is 'selected') then a Sargeant can not have a Bolt Pistol and a Power Fist. It is not possible.

However, you're wrong in the assumption that the 'selected' written there implies what you say it does. For example, because the sargeant is required to take either a bolter or a bp/ccw, those weapons can't really be said to have been selected by the sargeant at all.

Ultimately, I'm willing to accept that you may be right--and that the phrase in the armoury refers to all weapons a model has. It doesn't, however, do so necessarily. However, either it does or it doesn't. If it does, the BP/PF sargeant is impossible. If it doesn't, a BP/PF sargeant may have a bolter as well. These are the only two conclusions given this line of reasoning.

Given that Games Workshop advertises using Sargeants with Power fists and Bolt pistols, I'd say that any option which makes such a loadout illegal--such as the one you're proposing--is unreasonable.
 
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