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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know its a bold statement but time and time again when other core units from different armies meet the front spears of our high elves it seems are elves out match them. A matter of fact I would change any of you to come up with another armies core unit for the same price that would beat our spearelves in a front attack. When you guys come up with something I'll run a live test. (Proxies since I do not own every army) and we will see what happens. So their you have it fellow Elf brethren, my challenge.
 

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Well the only ones I can think of for roughly the same price are basic dwarven warriors. With hand weapon, heavy armour and shield they are the same cost, same weapon skill and +1 toughness.

They might give the elven spearmen a run for their money. In theory, and unit of 24 vs 24 (with command) would go like this:

19 High elf attacks, hitting on 4's : 9.5 hits
Wounding on 5's: = 3.2 wounds
Saving on 3's = 1 dead

6 Dwarven attacks back, hitting on 4's = 3 Hits
Wounding on 4's = 1.5 wounds
Saving on 5's = 1 dead (on average)

1 Drawn combat

ninja out
 

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I must agree. Dwarves can easily give HE a run for their money! I would say there is plenty to give them a runf for their money... Like Knightly Orders... Empire Swordmen are better all-rounders for less points (IMO). and don't get me started on those chosen of chaos!

Spearelves are not the best Core in the game. They are wonderful and they are up there, but not the best... It would also be a bit unfair if they were as armies such as Khorne Mortals give up both shooting and magic to get som POW-core troops...
 

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Nightlord
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Don't forget that some troop choices won't even be hitting you in the front, so you would lose those 3 ranks worth of attacks. Dryads come to mind, as do Beast Herds. They may not have much armor, but they can handle 4 attacks at s3.

I also agree with the others that dwarves are great head on, as are swordsmen for their cheap cost and even regular chaos warriors are pretty nice too.
 

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Ok, a unit of 20 spearmen with full command (so I'm not giving away individual points) is 205. A unit of 20 Empire swordsmen with full command and a detachment of 10 free company comes in at 195 points. It is cheaper.

Spearmen charge? Free Company goes into flank, spears attack. We'll allocate 13 attacks (4x3) to the swordsmen, and 5 attacks (the flank) to the free company. 8.6 hit at the front, 4.3 wound, you kill 2 maybe 3 after their 4+ AS. On the flank, you cause 1.66 wounds, so one or two dead. Lets round up for all of them, spearmen killed 5 total. Banners cancel, but empire get 3 ranks, outnumber and a flank charge, so they have drawn combat. BUT remember I haven't struck back with them yet, they need a measely 1 kill to win combat. And I have also just realised that I gave the spearmen 3 ranks fighting even though they charged, it should be less. And the same result as above if the empire charge.

Don't get me wrong, HE spearmen are a very good unit but they are also an expensive unit compared to most of the core stuff they may be facing, so you would expect them to come out on top. Opponents can just get so many more models for the same or even less points. You can't really say HE spearmen are the best unit. I think they get outclassed, but even if in effectiveness they are the 'best' they are still more expensive than other armies. Hell for less than the cost of that 20 man spear unit, Skaven can get 3 units of 20 slaves, two of them with spears and shields. Can a HE unit beat a unit of slaves? I should hope so, a slave unit is a third to half the points. Can your 1 spear unit beat 3 units of slaves? I would be very very suprised.
 

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Skinks are extremely cheap. They skirmish and move quickly almost to the point of cavalry and have LOTS of poison attacks.
Sarus warriors are not a poor choice either.

Spearmen are a good unit but it is easy to overestimate them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Very well written arguments. I understand that they are expensive models compared to some other forces which allows them to be out numbered, outflanked, and at rare times to be outmatched. Its not the fact that I overestimate the ability of my spearelves but for the last couple of battles that I got to play it was my oppenents underestimate of a wall of spears that have ASF that has been a decisive turning point in the battle. I might of been jumping into my own trap by calling them the best core unit in the game but if ones opp. always seems to be more worried about the our elite units and tries to just tie down our spearelves than they are in for a rude awakening.
 

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That is true. Any new army book often has units that are underappreciated much to the enemy's chargrin later. I remember when people wondered why anyone would use a skink at T2.
 

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DoctorDogmeat: little hint. if you want to slam a unit for being useless at least have the comon decency to back up your statements, meaningless spam is not welcome here.


the high elf spearmen, awesome in concept but some how lacking that indefinite edge. they are however supreme when it comes to grinding down light infantry outclassing dwarves, humans and most chaos units in comparible cost. they however lack the strength to make their tide of attacks count. in the face of T4 or 3+ armour they suffer significantly. of course ASF goes some way to help this.
 

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If you're doing unit v unit, Glade Riders WILL win every time. Because they're Fast Cav, they can avoid a charge indefinately and just ride around the Elves lobbing arrow after arrow into them until they eventually all die.

I agree with strewart. State Troops are more than a match for the pointy-eared losers, erm, I mean noble, shimmering wawrriors. Cheaper, and the Detachment system works so well in their favour it simply isn't funny.

I also like Orc Big Uns (on the wrong end of the pole). EXCELLENT fighters, nigh unstoppable on the charge.

The thing about WHFB is that you can't compare units (unless you're comparing archer vs archer or something deathly even). Most of these units are so paper-scissors-rock that when a unit does well against some stuff, it's hopeless against others.

-AFG
 

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i'm sorry, they are actually very good. well for the points, i'd rather take them than phoenix guard, say 14 phoenix guard 240pts for 25 spearmen 250pts both full command with only 10 points difference. as a core unit which can match most other lower toughness enemies with ease and are good pointswise compared with whitelions are phoenix guard
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
the worst core unit in the game
this has to be the dumbest comment i have ever seen what are you trying to say? I am not ever sure who you are referring to.
I appreciate everyone else's comment into the thread as I thought a bold statement that I laid out their for everyone would draw a good debate and it has.

Back to the debate I find a unit of 5 Chaos knight (including the champion) would not be able to cause that many casualites to win against 20 spearelves in frontal combat
 

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this has to be the dumbest comment i have ever seen
excuse me, i was upset, i went on to say
i'm sorry, they are actually very good. well for the points, i'd rather take them than phoenix guard, say 14 phoenix guard 240pts for 25 spearmen 250pts both full command with only 10 points difference. as a core unit which can match most other low toughness enemies with ease and are good pointswise compared with whitelions are phoenix guard
 

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this has to be the dumbest comment i have ever seen what are you trying to say? I am not ever sure who you are referring to.
I appreciate everyone else's comment into the thread as I thought a bold statement that I laid out their for everyone would draw a good debate and it has.

Back to the debate I find a unit of 5 Chaos knight (including the champion) would not be able to cause that many casualites to win against 20 spearelves in frontal combat
Obviously you wouldn't be charging them from the front...
 

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Spearmen are an amazing core unit with always strikes first and around 16 attacks against things right in front of them and dont forget their pretty nifty leadership. Are they the best? Meh i dont fling around superlatives like that but if used correctly and with decent rolling theyre magic.

No matter what anyone says, statistics mean jack, its a nice guideline but other than that its just pretty talk. Some days you have good rolling other days you cant get a 4+ ward save to save your phoenix guards combat res. just go with the flow and hope for the best. For their points dark elf infantry (in revised copy) are a pretty good bang for your buck but nowadays with al these special rules flying around...
 

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There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. While I advocate the use of correct statistical methods if one must resort to probability, I don't actually think they mean much in gaming terms. WHFB simply has too many variables to reduce it to a few lines of simple maths, which a lot of people fail to even get right anyway.

I used to have a nightmare playing against HE spears before they were given ASF and dropped by 2pts. Now I can only imagine the horrors of 22 s3 attacks coming at me like cleopatra before I get a chance to strike. Wasn't it Stalin who said that quantity was a quality in it's own right? With that many attacks from a simple unit of 20 spears and it makes for an evil defensive unit. Sure you can argue that chosen chaos warriors with add. HW can muller most things, but how many points does one of those cost?

I wouldn't say they are the best core unit in the game, but they are definitely in the top one.
 

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You can't beat the numbers. :p
Actually, you can. Time and time again units of mine have defied the odds. Sure, you can use statistics as a (very) general guideline, but other than that they don't really mean much.
Case in point:

In my IG army (I know it's 40k, but I don't get to play much fantasy nowadays) the unit with the highest kill rating and overall MVP's is my 3 mortars. Not my pie-plate of doom battlecannon toting russ, nor basilisk, nor myriad heavy bolters, lascannons, autocannons, massed flashlights, plasma, melta or multilaser, but my humble mortars. Oft touted as one of the worst guns in the IG armoury, they have succesfully blown their way through every game and most importantly been alive at the end to tell of it.
Then there was the time that my entire 1500pt Dark Angels army which was troop heavy with approximately 60+ marines (3rd ed) hit twice the entire game (5 turns) despite being in range and los. Statistics on that?
 
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