Special Charecters in armies not their own

926 Views 14 Replies 11 Participants Last post by Obsidian, Feb 16, 2006

Ryestar

Discussion Starter · Feb 10, 2006

If I am playing a Vanilla Marine army (no traits) that is not Ultramarines(but rules wise is exactly the same), can I use Ultramarines special charecters if I have my own fluff as to why say, my librarian has the same effect as a hood of hellfire(and I obey all the other rules and limiatations for them)?

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The_Outsider

· #2 · Feb 10, 2006

Rulewise no, it is illegal if you do.

If you wish to make it a house rule that you can thats up to you but officially special character can only be in the chapter they are from, so no (for example) dark angel armies led by Logan grimnar.

GeekSlayer

· #3 · Feb 10, 2006

Are you sure it's not allowed? If it's indeed illegal, then that's effectively an "ultramarines must be painted blue with yellow trim" rule. If the only difference is the paint job, it shouldn't matter.

Ostsol

· #4 · Feb 10, 2006

Well, he did say "Vanilla Marine army (no traits) that is not Ultramarines (but rules wise is exactly the same)". If it's not an Ultramarine army there is no reason why he should be allowed to use Ultramarines special characters or units.

Bean

· #5 · Feb 10, 2006 (Edited)

As long as you stick to the entirety of a rules set for a given chapter--and take nothing from the rules-sets of any other chapter, it shouldn't matter whether they're actually painted as that chapter or not.

It becomes illegal when you're mixing and matching rules from different armies--as long as you're not going there, you're fine.

Ryestar

Discussion Starter · #6 · Feb 10, 2006

Ok I let me clarify, I am playing an ultramarines army, though it is painted different, has a different chapter name and symbol, and has different fluff.

Visitor Q

· #7 · Feb 10, 2006 (Edited)

I can't remember where I read this but I am fairly sure you can use the special characters if you make up the character background yourself and suitable convert it.

Though unless you can specifically find reference to it you would have to ask your oppenents permission.

However it is important to note that these characters have been balanced to an Ultrmarines army so If you are using Ultramarines codex (but different paint job) then rules wise what you are doing is still fair.

Also by NOT allowing you to do this GW are creating an incentive for people to only use certain armies rather than create their own legions which I am sure is not their intention.

I will try to find out the official GW position.

Ok; The designers of the Space Marine codex Graham McNiel and Perter Haines say that when they were creating the Special characters for the codex they wanted to . "Thus, when it came to the characters we wanted to do for other Chapters, we wanted to pick archetypes that went well with the ones we’d created in the Ultramarines"

This is open to ALOT of inturpretation but I get the impression they were trying to make typical or generic Special characters that could be found in any chapter.

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Ostsol

· #8 · Feb 10, 2006

Ryestar said:
it is painted different, has a different chapter name and symbol, and has different fluff.

Then it's not Ultramarines and cannot use Ultramarines special characters and special units. There appear to be some provisions whereby one can create a chapter related to an existing chapter and use their rules, but even then, I'm pretty sure that special characters and units remain unique to the originals. Also the fluff should have some relation to the original chapters. Some veteran Marine players would know more about this than I, though.

Decado

· #9 · Feb 11, 2006

to my mind there is only one way that it is acceptable to play with special characters from different armies with your own and that is as part of a narrative campeign, and this would represent the character and his personnal retinue turning up to help you out.

now as for making your own names and using that characters rules i'd not have a problem with this,

conversely i would have a problem if the character had exactly the same wargear as say lysander, and you were using his wargear special rules, this to me is a no no as lysanders wargear is geared to his own chapter.

Sabe

· #10 · Feb 11, 2006

Ok I let me clarify, I am playing an ultramarines army, though it is painted different, has a different chapter name and symbol, and has different fluff.

I'm going to disagree with the majority of players here and say your good to go. Why?

GW has been really palying up the whole "Counts As" scene lately and i've seen some pretty inetersting armeis that used another armies rules set. They really do want people to add creative licensing to their own armies and thus I think they'd be fine with it.

So I'd say as long as you stuck STRICTLY to ultramarine rules the paint scheme shouldn't matter, nor should title or symbols(Anyone remember the mechanicus army that was based on C:CSM?). Just make sure you apply your own names, fluff etc. to your characters and only use Special chars from one chapter. This way you are still using a balanced and play tested rules set and you've got something different from the standard Ultramarine army.

LordHat

· #11 · Feb 14, 2006

It is perfectly legal to paint your army in any color scheme you want and use the rules you wish to use, as long as that scheme is not one already established for an army(chapter), with it's own rules set.

Example: You can't paint up your Dark Angels Models as Dark Angels, with the correct insignia for DA, and then call them Blood Angels and use the BA rules. But you can paint up your Dark Angels Models, as "redemption Angels" (or any chapter of your own design) with their own unique insignia (or a pre-printed insignia) and then use the Blood Angels list and rules. As long as there is no confusion over what rules you are using, and your models can't be mistaken to be another specific(printed rules set) army(chapter) than the one whose rules and list you are using.

Example 2006 GT rules: http://gamesday.us.games-workshop.com/GamesDay2006/assets/40K_GT_Rulespack_2006.pdf

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Ryestar

Discussion Starter · #12 · Feb 15, 2006

Punkrock! That's spectacular, Thanks Lord Hat

Visitor Q

· #13 · Feb 16, 2006

:book: :w00t: I KNEW I had read it somewhere! :w00t:

Andusciassus

· #14 · Feb 16, 2006

The game balance has to do with the rules and the rules alone. Proxying is valid in many places as far as I know. You can, without changing the gamemechanics or disturbing the balance play it with bare bases, no models. You can still play the game.
As an added level of enjoyment is the "fluff", the official background stories and chapter-colours and names on spec.characters.
They tell a story that many people share, and to avoid confusions each of the chapters are somewhat limited to their own stories, characters and colours. It does not affect the game in any other level then the narrative one.
If you and your friends decide to make up your own, though very similar cosmos, where the Dark Angels are pink and yellow, where they have names from Disney it's OK. It is not "illegal" to take control over the stories as you are the ones telling them.
What you cannot do is to interupt other "official" stories to tell your own. You cannot force anyone to accept the pink and yellow librarian Goofy as a Dark Angels Special Character at a Tournament or something equally official.
At home it's your story and your cosmos, other times we share space and background.

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Obsidian

· #15 · Feb 16, 2006

yes you can. To all of the people saying no, you are WRONG.

you cn have your own fluff, colour scheme and everything, just so long as you use the rules EXACTLY as they are for Ultramarines.

Some oppnents may also say that you have to use the tigurius model, but that will ot be too big a problem, unless you already have your Librarian built.

It clearly states in the blood angels codex that you can use the rules for your own army, like a successor chapter or something like that. That is what I am doing.

If your opponent refues to play you, they are just being petty and immature. They have no reason to stop you, and if they try refuse to play them and cal them petty and immature (unless they are bigger than you!)

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