Ok, if you haven't already done so, codex(s) comes first. The Space Marine and Blood Angel codexs that is.
After that I highly recommend to make an army list with whatever unit you like.
At that point I and many other LOers will be glad to help you with many tips, advice etc.
Well first off you will need to work out how you will form your death company.Theres a few options in which you can decide to take.
I'm assuming you will want to give the jump packs,as you would.So you can even buy 2 boxes of Death Company and then get hold of the jump packs some how OR if you want to save money you can just buy two boxes of assault marines and paint them up like death company and add blood angels things on them,and if your any good with green stuff you could do some insignia sculpting etc.
Then you will want to get your 2 troop choices sorted out.Do you want scouts or just marines? I strongly suggest you atleast run one 10 man scout squad with powerfist sergeant.This squad is awesome for its price and what it can do.
Then you should work some assaulting power into your army. Assault marines are probably the best assaulting unit you can get,apart from the Death Company and Honour Guard.If you do decide to have a assault squad in your force (which you should :lol then make sure you have a fairly large squad,preferably of 8 to 10 men.Small squad do not work,you will loose men while making your way up the board,so by the time you reach you want enough that you can do some damage with.
I love Baal predators.Its up to you if you decide to get one but i personally love them.They are really fluffy and provide excellent fire support for the rest of your army.
Then you will want to work out how you are going to deal with enemy tanks and high toughness things. I personally have two small tactical squads with a lascannon in each,works well most of the time.Yes they can rage,but it doesnt happen that often.
Well in my opp i would go for a different force. why Because blood angels are like half ass khorne bezerkers. my thoughts are this way because the kid i play with at the store plays them and he sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but any way if played properly they can be great. just know how to utilise youre armor. that and... lots of the zombie assault marines that come back. im sorry im so stupid i dont know there name. that and hounour guard. they have powerful assault marines
2 boxes of tactical marines.
2 boxes of scouts (10 models total)
1 Assault squad
1 Dev Squad
This will give you about 1300 points or so, depending on how you trick it out.
yes, we assault well. But we are not the best assault army.
We are space amrines and we shoot well. The black rage is not a reason not to take heavy weapons/fire support. You will rage on average once per game with each unit. I routinely field dev squads starting at 1200, and it's THE way to go for solid fire support.
We are the most mobile space amrines on the board due to black rage, grail (a relic), overcharged engines, and the ability to take many squads of jump pack marines.
In terms of assault, we assault better than regular space marine armies, so we need less, not more, to get the same punch they have.
In terms of shooting, black rage is a liability, so you will want to put a heavy weapon in every single squad that can take one. Example, I always take a 10 man cc scout squad with PF and ML. I don't use the ML too frequently, but the redundancy is helpful.
Also, you will want all of your infantry units to be able to do something when they rage. For Ba, that's easy, right? Sure. But if your dev squad rages, you're got about 250 points or so of army that's not doing anything useful. So I put a PF in my dev squad. I take a 10 man dev squad with 4 ML and a VS with PF and purity seals. This way, if I rage, I can reposition and/or put in a supporting assault.
Avoid the trap of building many small squads and putting VS's into them to maximize on the DC. The DC are pretty tough, but they go down to power weapons/fists just like anything else. You're best off considering them as a uber-infantry killing assault squad, and not plan on having a squad larger than about 8 - 10 models, including the chaplain.
Scouts are great, inexpensive assault units. I usually take 2 squads. 10 man. PF in each. ML in one.
In keeping with the redundancy theme, equipping your assault squads with MB would probably be best. This is again due to the rage and the effect on heavy weapons.
Since we tend to end up in assault, I suggest all of your squads be at least 8 man squads. 10 man is what I prefer to field.
tactical fire support squads are a big waste in a BA army. I'm referrinjg to the 6 man las plas team. effective, but not flexible enough. I put my firesupport infantry units in heavy support. For the cost of 2 6 man las plas teams, I get a 10 man dev squad with 4 ML. Much more powerful and cost-effective. My troops are COMPLETELY geared toward getting within 12" of the enemy. This doesn't mean I always charge my opponent (b/c we're not the best assautl army). It does mean the my tactical squads are large, in rhinos, and have a PF, a special, and a heavy weapon. I put those and scout squads (2 max) in my troop slots. Rhinos are very survivable if you build a combined arms force. combined arms is what space marines are best at. And it's the core principle of what SM do best, which is fire and maneuver.
BA are a marine army, so build upon your basic marine strengths first. Fire and maneuver. Make your whole army mobile, with the exception of your dev squads.
In keeping with the basic marine strength of shooting, take a special and a heavy weapon where ever you are able to. This makes your tactical squads truly tactical units that can do everything in an above-average way, but not as well as specialist units. They should be able to assault or shoot every single turn, and have the mobility to get where they need to go when they need to get there (rhinos).
As far as BA-specific abilities, this is where we gain a significant edge. I suggest you build you army such that it contains a slightly higher percentage of assault specialists than a regular space amrine army. For my own composition, I'd say that I put about 40 to 45 percent of my points in assault specialists. this includes cc scouts, assault squads, and HQ.
Put about 40 - 50 percent of your army, minimum, in troops. I suggest at least 2 rhino tactical squads and 2 large cc scout squads at least.
As far as assault marines go, I take one squad up to about 2500. But I also have the chappy/dc HQ and 2 scout squads. that's a good 40 dedicated assault units. with tactcial squads supporting, you can have alot more bodies should you need them for assault.
You'd make a mistake if you want with an all-out assault set up with masses of assault marines, cc scouts, and no tactical marines or other fire support. This isn't a very viable army against all comers. You'll get owned by nids/orcs and tougher cc armies like WE, SW, and BT.
Ba have a force organization similar to regular sm chapters, so use it. this is where we're dangerious. We can assault one turn, shoot the next, both very effectively, or go combined arms and do both for a turn.
Anyhow, I've played BA for a while and have about 400 games or so under my belt with this army. I've played anywhere from 1000 to 3000 point games, with about 2000 being typical. I've got about an 85 percent win rate, against experienced players for the most part. This isn't bragging. My point is, I go wit ha combined arms, mobile BA army that accentuates basic SM strengths. IN combination with BA-specific chapter abilities we have an army that's very hard to fight against.
Lastly, don't go crazy on your HQ. I generally have 1 HQ even in 2500 points army lists. You don't need it.
Any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them. I can post a few sample lists if you like to give you a feel of the combined-arms approach I'm referring to.
once you got ur 2 tac squads and a Chaplain I'd sugest 2 8 man assault squad and a couple of landspeeders w/ multimeltas and a baal predator the landspeeders will give you some nice anti tank while the the predator mows down troops. Once you get into say 2000/2500 points I reckon you should get a librarian w/ honour gaurd
another thing you should capitalize on is instead of getting a bunch of normal assualt squads if u have enough points build a vetran assualt squad which can also carry two assualt weapons. its a good deal and since it can have jump packs it can keep up and support your other assaulting squads with its assualt weapons or make use of its term honours and assualt with 4 attacks each
Yeah, but the VAS is broken in this edition. They're 1/3 more expensive than regular assault marines and don't equip frags by default. Additionally, MB are twice as expensive.
No real bonus to the squad, except for the LD bonus and the ability to take MG, PG, and Term Honors. Too expensive, though, if you ask me.
To take a squad like this:
VS PF, 2 MG, 7 CCW + BP, FG, Term Honors, it will cost 427 points (and no MB!). 337 without the term honors. If one could take additional power weapons, then the premium might be worth it, but not so this edition. =(
I can take an HG consisting of
4 PW, 5 CCW + BP, 1 marine ccw + BP and narthecium/reductor. All having FG and JP for about 355. I'd suggest that route instead.
hey, I don't have the BA codex handy, but can the VAS equip bolters? it'd be interesting to have a firesupport squad, basically a tactical squad with 2 special weapons and a VS with some sort of PW--all equipped with jump packs. that'd be very interesting to play. Highly maneuverable fire support... I'd go for that !!
yeah, I checked right after making the post. hehehe. thanks. Hg equip bolters or CCW + BP. it'd be interesting to build a unit like that and task it with mobile fire support. . VS with PW/PP, 2 PG, 7 bolters. Led by an inexpensive character with PW/PP... Maybe a SP in the squad with a narthecium/reductor...
324 points for the squad, + another 25 for the SP? Probably not worth it, but interesting to behold.
if the VAS could do that it would be a very interesting option for BA. One I'd definitely proxy just to try out for a few games.
I've seen these things RIP apart squads...and now with the new Rending Assault Cannons...having twin-linked A/Cs make the Baal a formidable anti-vehicular tank (plus they can move and fire...these things eat infantry like an anteater is Boswana during the ant swarm heated summers). I've seen this player fielding two Baals...always traveling side by side eating alive everything in their path. If you have the spare points, two Baals would be sweeter than royal jelly from the Jakartan honey wasp.
Anyhow, that being said, I still believe the Blood Angels single-handedly nerfed assault rules in 4th edition. They are the most "cheesy" chapter...even their disadvantage (black rage) ultimately helps them out (and God knows why BA players take Dev squads).
while i agree with fox on the BA's un penalized bit
i've seen BA armies torn apart with concentrated fire and orc mobs enough to have stopped caring about that problem....
you can take traits to emulate BA
(Basically take the one what gives Furious Charge) and you're good to go for a basic idea...
I'd suggest, since you'll be buying marines and the SM codex, try it this way a couple times first before totally committing to BAs... if you only have a couple models, try a couple Combat Patrols and the like...
if you don't like the idea of an army based on the assault in a game of modern warfare... then try a different trait balance...
Another approach to take would be to build your models as BA (shoulderpads?), but alternate between playing codex BA and 'pre-heresy' BA using the SM Codex traits.
The black rage helps on the assault side, but since we're not the best assault army, we're hurt when we try to sit and shoot. Overall, I'd say Black Rage is a benefit. But unfortunately, it drives BA players to build armies in such a way that the negative effects of the black rage are minimized. So you will see a higher percentage of assault units, less shooty units, and very high mobility. I think that is the greatest factor in the notion that BA single-handedly nerfed 4th edition assault rules (paraphrased from Fox).
Hmm, just to add more to the pot (without ranting)...
One local player is gearing up for GW Tournament in LA. His composition is as follows (I think)...
for a 1500pts list:
Chaplain and the almost compulsory Death Company (jump packs)
2x Squads of Scouts (I think)
One or two Assault Squads (jump packs)
2 Baal Predators
He might of had a Tactical Squad in a Rhino, I forget.
His force was VERY mobile...which meant that it was very flexible. His use of infiltrating scouts helped either "split" the enemy force or influenced his opponent to manuever a certain way. He basically sacrifices his scouts though...
I'm not too sure how he would have done against heavy armor, but during the final turn he was charging his Baals into a Landraider Crusader (the game then ended).
I may need to watch him in action a few more times to really gauge how well his army composition functions.
Ps...damned Blood Angels, ruined it for the Wolves I tell ya!
hehe. We take dev squads so we can defeat armies like yours. =)
SW v. my BA are probably the best games I've ever played. It's a question of whichever army plays their strengths better will win.
BA will get creamed by SW if we get stuck into a prolonged assault. We're generally more mobile than SW, so if we can pick our assaults, finish them quickly, and back off just to charge in again, we will win. that's the just the nature of our to armies.
In a pure BA v. SW game going pure assault with both armies, I'd say SW would win. You've got more PF/PW/special weapons so after the charge, it's a done deal you're oging to probably finish on your terms.
To kill our army, focus on our transports and assault squads first. if you're not too mobile (most SW armies aren't), just stick close to each other and move as a group. Don't EVER move toward a BA army in the first turn, or at any time you leave us in assault range. Every SW player that' sdone that, even experienced one, has gotten hammered very hard. Let us come to you. if you're dealing with a balanced BA army, you'll probably have a more difficult time against us than you will against a pure assault-based BA army. that's just how it works.
in this order, try to take out the following:
remember our scouts are kinda like your blood claws in the sense they have special rules. Your guys get 2 extra attacks on the charge. our guys get furious charge. BA scouts are nasty. regard them as a very high threat and try to wipe them out early if at all possible.
Honor guard wil ltear you to shreds, but they're very expensive.
A squad of yoru assault marines (are they Bc with jump packs) would be worth it. lead them with one of your HQ's and give it LClaws. that'll help you big time in breaking up our charge. It'll be expensive but worth it. Keep it in cover, b/c it's one of the units I go after with high strength low ap shooting if I see it.
let us know how it goes.
Oh, on your setup, set up pretty far back behind your 12" line. Try to make sure you have 2 full turns of shooting at us before you charge....
SW are rock hard and well-balanced against BA. Like I said, I love playing against them. they're great games. Take it easy.
Here's a little tip on tricking out your honour gaurd:
as a warning however, this trick works well against certian armies but not against ALL of them.
Take a High Priest (There good and the exsanguinator is awsome)
Give him an honour gaurd of five marines.
Then give the HP Artificer Armour
upgrade your HG to have a standard, veteran, and a sanguinary priest (apothacary)
you need to do this so that they can get Artificer Armour!
Now your majority save in the squad is 2+!
and they all have powerweapons!
Unfortunatley, I have seen this setup played badly, and it can easily be a pointsink, so I'd try playing a few games before trying it out.
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