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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hive Commanders

I have been busy trying to paint up my 1500 point swarmish tournament list, and found out that there's a possibility that the tournament may be raised to 1850 points. Here's the list I came up with, based on the models I have

1850 Tyranid Tournament List


HQ
Hive Tyrant - 2 TL Devouers - Enhanced Senses - Toxin Sacs - Adrenal Glands (+1 In, WS) - Extended Carapace - Shadow of the Warp - Flesh Hooks
3 Warriors - Rending Claws - Scything Talons - Adrenal Glands (+1 In, WS) - Extended Carapace - Leaping - Flesh Hooks

ELITE
3 Warriors - Rending Claws - Scything Talons - Adrenal Glands (+1 In, WS) - Extended Carapace - Leaping - Flesh Hooks
3 Warriors - Rending Claws - Scything Talons - Adrenal Glands (+1 In, WS) - Extended Carapace - Leaping - Flesh Hooks
3 Warriors - Rending Claws - Scything Talons - Adrenal Glands (+1 In, WS) - Extended Carapace - Leaping - Flesh Hooks

TROOPS
14 Hormagaunts
14 Termagaunts
14 Termagaunts
14 Termagaunts
15 Spinegaunts
14 Spinegaunts

FAST ATTACK
Ravener - Rending Claws - Scything Talons
Ravener - Rending Claws - Scything Talons
Ravener - Rending Claws - Scything Talons

HEAVY SUPPORT
Sniperfex Alpha - Venom Cannon - Barbed Strangler - Enhanced Senses - Extended Carapiece
Sniperfex Beta - Venom Cannon - Barbed Strangler - Enhanced Senses - Extended Carapiece
Commandofex - Venom Cannon - TL Devourer- Enhanced Senses - Extended Carapiece


CAVEATS
  1. I do prefer CC Warriors and have 12 of them. So I'm not interested in changing those Warriors
  2. I don't own any more Raveners, so I can't up those numbers.
  3. I do own some genestealers, but prefer the high numbers of gaunts right now. I can add more spinegaunts and some termagaunts if needed as well.
  4. The only 2 units I'm considering of moving/altering is the Hive Tyrant (aka DakkaTyrant) and Commandofex
    • I think in 1850 points a larger Synapse unit is needed. In terms of Synapse models I only have 3 shooty warriors, and 1 Zoanthrope to swap it out with. I have 1 unbuilt Tyrant Guard, but am unsure if I could build it in time for the tournament.
    • I have a Dakkafex, but felt that I needed one more tank buster. I onluy own 2 Sniperfexes, abd thought a Commandofex would be a decent solution.
    • I could field the Dakkafex as an Elites choice, and then create 3 units of 4 Warriors to maintain my Synapse units. However, I wasn't sure if 5 MC is too much for 1850 point games (yes I do think about army comp).
    • I'd consider any additional biomorphs to add, but in general I like to keep my units relatively even (120-180 points/unit)

Any suggestions on the list especially regarding the Hive Tyrant and Commandofex is appreciated
 

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I would use Reinforced Chitin instead of Extended Carapace.

You should be keeping your Fex in cover anyway, and the things most tourney players will throw at you are going to be armor save ignoring one way or another. EC helps you against AP3 and worse weapons, Chitin helps you against everything. Seems a no brainer, and IIRC is 10 points cheaper.

Giving your Tyrant wings and warp field instead of EC might be very effective. Your warriors DO have leaping, which is nice, but they are otherwise sluggish. Flyrants w/ dakka are scary scary scary, and will also give you opportunities to take side armor shots on some vehicles if you get faced w/ a desperation need to knock 'em out. Plus, it gives you more flexibility to line up charges as you see fit if your Tyrant must charge into combat.

Finally, Toxic Miasma is a very powerful biomorph, and is always more worth it than WS on a Tyrant.

Here's the comparison vs. opponents of WS-X when you have AG(WS) (first #'s) or TM:
Opponent WS / His to hit you WS / your to hit him WS / his to hit you TM / your to hit him TM
7 / 3+ / 4+ / 3+ / 4+
6 / 4+ / 4+ / 4+ / 4+
5 / 4+ / 3+ / 4+ / 3+
4 / 4+ / 3+ / 4+ / 3+
3 / 4+ / 3+ / 5+ / 3+

Plus it benefits other units in combat.


As for army comp, it's such a variable thing as to be difficult to figure out. I guess you have a solid comp now, but the people who will ding you for 5 MC's are going to ding you for 4 anyway IMO. They'll see several big guys, cry cheese and wham-o. Just my $.02

Warriors are easy to kill. I use 9-12 of them in my elite choices in games, however, to make my army less "cheesy," and intelligent opponents know to nail them fast. In your list, were it me, I'd blast those bastards ASAP and make sure to leave enough open ground that leaping couldn't get to me. I'd send every AP4 and worse shot at them until they were gone. Every AP2/highstrength shot would hit the Tyrant. Wings on the Tyrant will at least let you dodge behind cover better so that can't happen. If your opponent does have an army with the firepower to totally boof your warriors, at least the Tyrant will be more likely to survive and keep synapse rolling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Mike

Thanks for the Toxic Miasma suggestion. Its been a while since I'd had to think about a Hive Tyrant, which is why I posted the list. If I had to choose between just adding 1 Tyrant Guard, or adding wings and making the suggestions you provided, which one would you add?

If we go with your theory regarding Army Comp, if I added the Dakkafex, what units would you suggest taking off?

In regards to Extended Carapiece vs. Reinforced Chitin, I'd like to present a counter argument for the community to consider. The EC allows you to have better statistical probability to make saves when a high volume of shots are coming at you; thus the upgrade works lots of times, while the extra wound only works once. I found myself in games that although I have the extra wound, I'll find myself making 4-5 saves and rolling a few more 2s than I would have liked. So if one your Dakka Tyrants unloaded on a Dakkafex (and this is purely guessing), I think I'd still have more wounds, compared to a 5 wound fex with at 3+ save. I've heard that Reinforced Chitin works well with Regenerate, but I've only seen a CC Carnifex use it. I'll also say that Reinforced Chiting doesn't work against a Force Weapon or that Ork Shock Attack Gun when he rolls a 12 for the Strength roll...however, those are specific instances.

In general I've found many players wanting to shoot those Carnifexes, and having EC tends to get players focused on that unit for 1-2 turns. Sometimes they're lucky, sometimes they waste an entire turn of shooting with all their units only getting 1 wound. And one turn of shooting at the Carnifex is 1 turn they're not shooting at those fragile Warriors. In addition, from a tactical perspective I'm hoping that during deployment that I'll limit his LOS with all his AP 2 weapons, while in return shaking any tanks to prevent them from firing. In addition, that Commandofex would be used more aggressively. I wouldn't just hide it in terrain, I'd actually use it as a shield for those Warriors, shaking tanks or shooting at infantry. If I get charged, I'm hoping that the Commadofex would last long enough for the Warriors to get a counter charge, or tie them up with gaunts.

I like using the hormagaunts/raveners as a single group attacking the same or close-by targets. I try to quickly attack any opposing units that like to shoot a lot, or tie up the closest squads in combat in turn 1 or 2 in hopes that the combat will block LOS to protect the warriors or other gaunts. I think you and I both agree that Warriors are tricky units to handle. The only other Synpase units I have in my possession was 3 shooty warriors and 1 Zoanthrope.

The best bet would be to add another Hive Tyrant, but I'm not interested in getting one, yet.


Thanks for the advice Mike and I welcome more opinions.
 

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Well, you'd replace a warrior squad w/ a dakkafex, and have points left over unless I miss my guess at the cost of your squads.

In re: the Reinforced Chitin, a couple of comments:

1) How likely do you find yourself to be facing many attacks vs. your fex that do not ignore armor saves of 2+ anyway? Will you be facing much "dakka" or more lancey / lascannony / plasmagunny / meltagunny / assault cannony nastiness? It is really a matter of what you think you'll be up against. EC only is superior vs. many, many wounds that don't ignore a 2+. I don't find that as common among many lists.

2) Chitin doesn't help against SAG or Force Weapons, but um neither does EC, and Chitin costs 10 points less.

3) I'd buy 3 more raveners, for what it's worth. They're the best selection in the Tyranid army due to their squad size, speed, and location on the force organization chart.

4) I'd rather have a winged Tyrant w/ warp field than one guard on a slow walking Tyrant.
 

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I prefer Psychic Scream over Shadow of the Warp, because less Leadership is more important than blocking very likely anyway Psychic Powers.

otherwise, I dont like your Commandofex. The combination of the Anti Infantry/Anti Tank doesnt work with me, along with the extremely different ranges of your two weapons. Consider the Barbed Strangler if you want two Anti Infantry Weapons. Barbed Stranglers are the closest thing Nids have to an Ordanance Weapon, and are very effective with a Carnifex. S8 Large Template is nothing to overlook.

Add your Tyrant wings, because he is not going to get in range anytime soon walking. If you want to use the Shooty Tyrant, use the Venom Cannon or Strangler. The Miasma is a nice touch if you add it.
 

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I'm under the impression that most tournaments deduct points from having multiple minimum 'copies' of FOC entries (other than troops).

As is, you have four warrior 'copes', three raveners, and two sniperfexes.

If you can, drop Shadows and extended carapace for Warp Field for your tyrant. It's only ten points more, and an invul save could be very, very useful.

I'm not sure how useful EC will be on your carnifexes, since they should be in cover most of the game. Still, it could be useful for all those scatterlasers eldar players tend to bring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
2) Chitin doesn't help against SAG or Force Weapons, but um neither does EC, and Chitin costs 10 points less....

3) I'd buy 3 more raveners, for what it's worth...

4) I'd rather have a winged Tyrant w/ warp field than one guard on a slow walking Tyrant.
Mike

Sorry for the confusion regarding item 2. You mentioned in your previous post that Reinforced Chitin works on everything. I presented the SAG or Force Weapons as a counter argument. I agree that the EC doesn't work either. I'll have to play more games to find out which is more important. If I'm getting pwned by a lot of AP2 weapons, then the reinforced chitin is going to work better. In the few games I played, the EC tends to make my Sniperfexes huge targets. Oddly enough they tend to ignore my warriors and gaunts, which help me in the latter turns as I try weigh them down with a lot of gaunt attacks. Its possible that I could just field Sniperfexes as is without any upgrades, so I can field more gaunts as well.

I'll need to play armies with a lot of low AP weapons in order for me to see if this is best option. Your last argument has merit and something that I should consider after playing more games.

I have those Balrog Wings, so once I'm finished with my other Sniperfex and Trisomyfex, I'll see what I can do about adding wings


I prefer Psychic Scream over Shadow of the Warp...

I dont like your Commandofex. The combination of the Anti Infantry/Anti Tank doesnt work with me, along with the extremely different ranges of your two weapons...S8 Large Template is nothing to overlook.

Add your Tyrant wings, because he is not going to get in range anytime soon walking. If you want to use the Shooty Tyrant, use the Venom Cannon or Strangler. The Miasma is a nice touch if you add it.
Hive Commander Hydra

My reason for adding Shadow of the Warp was to protect my low toughness gaunts versus Tzzeetch Chaos from spawning them and Eldar players that like to use psychic powers. Although in past games, I also used it to protect my Zoanthrope from any Perils of the Warp. Considering I'm not fielding Zoanthropes in this list, and that most units will have to take a morale test after getting shot with 12 shots that re-roll hits and wounds, you might be correct to say that Psychic Scream could be better for a walking DakkaTyrant :D

I don't have a problem with your issues around the Commandofex. Its a specialized fex that I originally made to cater to more smaller games where I could only field one Carnifex. I just recently finished my Trisomyfex (which I can field as a Sniperfex) and I'm in the middle of finishing up my second Sniperfex. From a tactical perspective, I plan on using the Commandofex in two distinct ways
  1. Have more opportunities to shake/destroy light armor units (Drednaughts, rhinos, Ork trukks, landspeeders, sentinels)
  2. Move forward to act as a moving shield to protect those softer warriors
Although I miss the range that a Barbed Strangler will provide, I'd be using the other 2 Sniperfexes in this list to shoot those infantry units. I didn't overlook the Barbed Strangler, I'm just choosing this Carnifex to be used in a different role, as dictated by my current collection of Tyranids. The list already has two other Sniperfexes which demonstrates my belief in the Barbed Strangler's long range anti-infantry power. I also like its potential to get penetrating hits when rolling that rare 6 against SM Predators


If you can, drop Shadows and extended carapace for Warp Field for your tyrant. It's only ten points more, and an invul save could be very, very useful.
If I make that Hive Tyrant with wings, you can be sure I'll drop that EC and Shadow of the Warp, for Warp Field instead.

I'm under the impression that most tournaments deduct points from having multiple minimum 'copies' of FOC entries (other than troops).
Really?!? I didn't know that :|

You know I honestly don't know how people grade Army Comp. I just assumed that if there are more than 4 MC, opponents get annoyed. But if players grade me down for multiple entries, then I'm going to get screwed anyway. In a tournament list, I'd rarely field 1 Brood Lord, 1 Hive Tyrant, 1 lictor unit, 1 shooty Warrior, 1 CC Warrior, 1 Carnifex, 1 Zoanthrope, and 1 Biovore unit, 1 Ravener unit, 1 Gargoyle, and 1 spore mine unit...then 6 units of spinegaunts. It looks great as a fluffy list, but I can't imagine how difficult this army would play. (Hmmmm....that does sound like something worth trying though :?)

Anyway, if Hive Commander Atma is correct, I shouldn't be concerned about Army Comp. I may just put the Dakkafex back in, removing a squad of warriors OR removing more gaunts and making the warrior squads, squads of 4.
 

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Army comp is a biased load of BS in most cases, as is giving your opponents sportsmanship scores IMO. You could go out of your way to try and make your army nicely composed, and get dinged anyway.

Unless you're desperate to somehow try and wink out a win for a nominal prize, make an army that will win (and I don't need to say "look good," b/c I know you do that no matter what) and that you'll enjoy playing with.

I share the opinions about the Commandofex btw. Versatile selections are uniformly terrible. You will accomplish multiple tasks, each to a subpar level. The Tyranid army is cheap enough per model, and flexible enough that you will accomplish greatest success by dedicating to a specific task, and maintaining a cadre of high caliber back-ups toward the other task. You are very shooty to begin with. Maximize your shooty by unit, and specialize each unit to a specific shooting task. I'd replace the warriors with dakkafex(es), and I'd add 3 more raveners as a melee bail-out unit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Mike

Here's a follow-up.

Since the Commandofex is such a poor choice, assume I have 1 month to build and revise the list. In my current collection have numerous gaunts, 2 Lictors, 3 shooty warriors, one Zoanthrope, and a Dakkafex. (Mike, the other units I have are currently in my brothers collection back in Virginia..which is why I can't field 3 Sniperfexes)

If I remove the Commandofex, what should I replace it with?

I'm convinced that I should field that Dakkafex, but my original plan was to remove 3 Warriors and field it as an Elites choice. You and I both agree that I should try to max out my FOC, but I was curious if you thought adding 3 Raveners would be better than trying to add a Heavy Support choice. Right now I only have 1 Zoanthrope, which I thought is a cheap Synapse unit, but a poor choice for tank busting. I chose the Commandofex because, although a poor choice, I thought it would fare better than a single Zoanthrope and allow more tactical options; I wasn't sure if 2 Sniperfexes would be adequate for 1850 points.

Four other options I could think of would be:
  1. Field the dakkafex as a Heavy Support choice, replacing the Commandofex. I'd add more 1-2 defensive biomorphs (i.e. Reinforced Chitin/Extended Carapiece) and use any extra points to field more gaunts.
  2. Remove the Commandofex entirely and add more spinegaunts/termagaunts
  3. Remove the Commandofex entirely and add a genestealer unit, consolidating 2 gaunt units together.
  4. Remove the Commandofex, add more defensive biomorphs to the Sniperfexes (Reinforced Chitin, Bonded Exoskeleton, Regenerate) then just add more spinegaunts/termagaunts
I don't mind removing the Commandofex at all; like I said I built it for small games where I could only field 1 fex. Let me know if any of these options sound good or if another option is better. I'm definitely open to hear new ideas.
 

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Field the Commandofex, and the Dakkafex. I know you don't want to, but I'd add another Tyrant instead of the third warrior squad. Use the two warrior squads remaining as back-up synapse and cc protection against a cc-heavy army or enemy squad (i.e. death company).

A commandofex is better than a zoanthrope or a dakkafex in that slot, when you can field the dakkafex in the elite slot.
 

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I think you should think about the removement of the Commandofex altogether, and add some other models. Why?


  1. Your option of the Dakkafex is not so good. Although, how big is the table? If your table is 36". you will be able to shoot at enemies by Turn Three if your lucky and they dont move out of your reach, which is unlikely and they will probably manuover out of your gun's reach. However, if your table is 48", you will be able to get within range by turn five if they dont outmaneuver your reach, unless, of course, they have deepstrinking units. So i would not take the Dakkafex.

So i would take the option of the Genestealers. THey are more likely to reach the enemy and shred them, with probably more atttacks than a maxed out Dakkafex's shots. Also, they can scuttle which brings them closer. But thats just me.
 
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I agree with Hydra.
the genestealers will help with your melee strength and you wont have to worry about them if they decide to go out of synapse range. they should hold their own in combat, and with a Leadership of 10 they wont be running anywhere anytime soon.

then again you might not be able to get many of them... personally i give ALL my genestealers extended carapace making them cost much more, but drastically lowering casualties from bolters and CC so i can get the most out of them without them dieing before the charge.

taking out a small portion of gaunts along with the fex to bolster a genestealer unit (if you do decide to make one)
 

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Oh my God, did someone just say it takes a dakkafex until turn 5 to get into range on a standard 48" wide table?

I mean, seriously, it just doesn't pan out that way. That's like claiming the dakka Tyranid list is noncompetitive b/c it only has 18" range, yet somehow a list comprised of tons of close combat genestealers and the like IS competitive.

I would say discount any advice claiming a dakkafex doesn't get shooting until turn 3 or later.
 

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Good point, if the other units do want to get close, i guess you could shoot them, and being 15" max out of the Deployment zone... But still, you have to remember that your other creature will be able to get in CC probably before teh Carnifex can get in range... and then he cant shoot them can he?
 

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well if its a 15" deployment zone, and if theres units right at the edge it will be shooting on turn 1, turn 2 if no units were within 24" at the start of the game.

that is unless im missing something....
 

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well if its a 15" deployment zone, and if theres units right at the edge it will be shooting on turn 1, turn 2 if no units were within 24" at the start of the game.

that is unless im missing something....

yup

good point again

i still think genestealers are better MVBrant
 

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To each their own. I use a devourer-heavy army to extreme success, and Rudy knows the data about shooty 'Nids as well. My intent is not to engage in an argument or flex-off between dakkafexes and genestealers, but to point out that any notion of dakkafexes having trouble getting range on targets is utter bollox.

As far as "better" is concerned, that's also heavily dependent on all sorts of situations and playstyles and opponents. I personally prefer Dakkafexes b/c against any army they are exceptional, whereas Genestealers struggle mightily against things like skimmer armies, and others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Hive Commanders Hyrda and MVBrandt

I will definitely take both suggestions into account. The good news is that I think most of the list is fine, but there are 1-2 units that I should consider tweaking. At this point I think I could either keep the list as is OR implement one of the suggestions into the list. Here will be my general guidelines reagarding this post

1) I'll play 3-10 games with the list I have
As of right now, I think I'll see a lot of land raiders, monoliths, hammerheads, and high armour units. I don't think 2 Carnifexes with Venom Cannons will be enough. Its a list I want to try out and will provide me an opportunity to ask our players here regarding its army composition. We don't have as many players frequent here in Miami. I want to make a list that's competitive but not one that is so over the top that players refuse to play me. And yeah I have players that will do that.


2) My first tweak will probably be using the Dakkafex.

I'll probably drop more gaunts and make the warriors squads of 4. OR I can drop 3 warriors, add a Zoanthrope, and add more gaunts.

I do agree with Mike's assessment with Dakkafex effective turn usage. Even in standard games where deployment zones are 12", that usually means a 24" gap between armies. So "theoretically" I should be able to move 6" and barely be in range to hit one unit in the first turn. This assumes that units are around that 12" deployment zone, which is rare. However my point is that most of the time your Dakkafex should be able to shoot at something by turn 2.


3) My second tweak will easily be trying to get wings on the Hive Tyrant.

I have a set of Balrog Wings and consider this a major project and one that shouldn't be rushed.


4) If I'm not satisfied with the results I may add the genestealers.

I don't know what I'd remove yet. Hive Commander Hydra's idea sounds good, as I haven't been able to use genestealers for awhile. The reason I like this swarm army is because opponents tend to underestimate or confused by them.
  • Some smart opponents will just shoot the MC or warriors, but when I get the gaunts in combat, there's a lot more to deal with. If I can isolate a squad with an HQ unit for 1 full turn with a full unit of gaunts, that will allow me to be more selective when it comes to attack or shooting other units.
  • In contrast, some guys choose to shoot at my fast moving hormagaunts and/or raveners. And that gives me less units to shoot at my Carnifexes which gives me opportunities to shake tanks.
However with genestealers, especially scuttling ones, they tend to be the obvious choice for shooting (in terms of troops choices). If my opponent choses to shoot any of my troops, I want them to think about what troops they should attack. If I give my opponent the choice of shooting at genestealers, hormagaunts, spinegaunts, and termagaunts, I'm pretty sure most people would shoot at the genestealers. However if my troops choices are nothing but hormagaunts, spinegaunts, and termagaunts, the choice becomes a bit more difficult.


Even with this long post, I still haven't given up on new ideas. I really don't play a lot of games over 1500 points, so most likely this will be a list that I have to do research over 6-12 months. So feel free to post more opinions
 

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I feel you hit the nail on the head re: the genestealers there Rudy.

They're nice enough when they get into combat, but in your style list they're just an easy targetting solution for an enemy. He'll kill them, and move along. Plus, due to their high cost even with no upgrades, they'll be entirely worth whatever it takes him to kill them. The same cannot be said for gaunts, especially if you put them in cover. Expending even bolter fire to kill a 5-point spinegaunt in cover is a net loss for the person doing the shooting.
 

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My reason for adding Shadow of the Warp was to protect my low toughness gaunts versus Tzzeetch Chaos from spawning them and Eldar players that like to use psychic powers.
As all Eldar Farseers have the ability to roll 3D6 and choose the two lowest ones for Psychic power-test I guess that the SoTW won't be as effective as wanted. Unless they play with only Autarch and Warlocks (honestly don't know how the "common" Tourney-build is for Eldars except lots of skimmers and the dreaded Falcon-list)

Against Tzeencht it might help but I don't know how many runs a Tzeencht-centered list instead of Nurgle/Khorne....

Just my quick reflections.
 
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