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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
It's nothing to do with a codex disagreeing with the rulebook like usual, in this case it's a really annoying glitchy line in the rule book.

It's under "The Turn". under the heading "Game Turns & Player Turns". The line states the following:

"Whenever a rule uses the word "turn", both in this rulebook and the Codexes, it means "player turn", otherwise it will clearly state "Game Turn"."

Now, how about the monolith and the Deciever, as far as I can remember it doesn't clearly state player turn for the power matrix or some of the deciever's abilities. Infact, now I think about it, it doesn't even meantion "player turn" whatsoever. The same applies for lots of other units. Another example being Eldrad Ulthran's addtional psychic power. And another line I have come across that seems to have been overlooked by EVERYONE is the following one under psychic powers:
"Unless specified otherwise in its special rules, a model may use a single psychic power per player turn"


Please help me. Can I use the above stated powers in my opponents turn. I don't need "oppinions" and "play fairly" posts, i need hard evidence please. Believe me we have discussed the finer points of this to unbelieveble detail. I'm completely stuck. The staff say play fairly and all that but I need to know an exact ruling on this one, so please use some evidence in your post.
 

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Huh... I guess I've overlooked that too.

As for Deceiver abilities, while it doesn't say player turn or game turn, it does make specific references to a particular player's phase of the turn sequence. The monolith's portal makes reference to the Necron movement phase. Yeah, it doesn't make references to player's turn but I would think that the references to particular phases would be clear enough.

Psychic powers, that's another matter. Forgive me for being ignorant but I'm a little lost at what you mean by per player turn? Do you mean the owning player's, the opposing player's or both?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
"player turn" means once during each player's turn. "Game turn" means once both players have had a turn, and it has to be in your turn.

As for the monolith and deciever: Unless it actually says "necron" turn. We both have a shooting and movement phase so we can use it during the opponents as well your own turn.
 

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Ah, so you're looking whether powers can be used in both player turns if it does not make reference to a specific turn.

Well, the monolith's portal does say 'Necron Movement Phase'. All of the Deceiver's power have a specific reference except Deceive, which just says Shooting Phase. It doesn't refer to whose so I see your point about being able to use it in your turn and the opponent's turn. That would be a nasty trick, to halt a unit's shooting when you pin them in their own shooting phase.
 

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I do not think the glitch is as vast as you perceive it is.

That psychic powers can be used in the enemy's turn if their wording does not keep you from doing so is common knowledge around here. Even if the wording of every single one of your powers prohibits use in your opponent's turn you can at least use a force weapon, for example, if your psyker has one. But some powers are open for use in the opponent's turn anyhow, and you are free to use those. In case you have neither a power that is worded so that it can be used during the opponent's turn, nor a force weapon, then the rules would allow for one power to be used, but since you have none, you still can't do it.
And by the wording not disallowing it I mean exactly that: the wording need not allow it explicitly, it need only not disallow it explicitly, like when it says "at the start of the psyker's movement phase" or something equivalent.

About the monolith: the power matrix clearly states it can only be used in the Necron turn.
The deceiver's deceive ability is the only one that does not clearly state in which player turn it can be used, therefore it has been argued before that you can use it in your turn as well as that of your opponent, so in effect use it twice per game turn. Ruleswise this is fine as long as there is no different local ruling (like a house rule forbidding it, or a tournament staff ruling against it), but -as you guessed- it is not considered fair by all players alike.

I don't think there are many other examples like the deceiver's deceive ability, so this isn't exactly a major glitch. But if you can find more examples I am open to changing my mind.
 

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You're streching it too far. You can never make a move during your opponents turn unless it states so specifically like the Deceiver's ability to leave assault DURING the opponents assault phase. Period...Nothing else states you can MOVE/USE during the opponents phase.
 

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Actually, if you flip the page backwards, the Nightbringer has a similar power wording issue. The Lightning Arc power just says "shooting phase" but not "necron shooting phase" so if you want to stretch your reasoning, you could be firing the Lightning Arc during your opponent's shooting phase as well to blow up a tank before it mows you down (in my reasoning, a "god" would fire before some dude behind a gun staring down a "god"but if you want to be a sport, you could let them fire first). In all fairness, I think these were just minor oversights when writing out the codex and they assumed people would figure it out. That being said, there's nothing in the errata about these powers stating otherwise so i say go for it until your local tourny judge/shop official tells you to knock it off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Wait a minuet, are you suggesting shooting attacks in the opponents turn??? I never suggested that for a reason, it quite clearly states in the rulebook that shooting attacks are never taken in the opponents turn. After a chat with various judges and GW staff I've come up with a ruling in general on this one:

Psychic attacks can be used 1 per player turn (or however many psychic attacks you have - uldrad for an example)
But they may NOT be shooting attacks

Any power that says "once per turn" and does not specify whether they should be used during yours or your opponents turn may be used in both unless it is a shooting attack.


So the deciever can use his power, as can the necron lord use nightmare shroud (I know it says instead of a shooting attack, but many psychic powers are "instead of a shooting attack" and may be used on your opponents turn). And i believe the tomb spyder can use artificer. Thats it for the necron codex. Glad it's all sorted.
 

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Wait a minuet, are you suggesting shooting attacks in the opponents turn??? I never suggested that for a reason, it quite clearly states in the rulebook that shooting attacks are never taken in the opponents turn. After a chat with various judges and GW staff I've come up with a ruling in general on this one:

Psychic attacks can be used 1 per player turn (or however many psychic attacks you have - uldrad for an example)
But they may NOT be shooting attacks

Any power that says "once per turn" and does not specify whether they should be used during yours or your opponents turn may be used in both unless it is a shooting attack.


So the deciever can use his power, as can the necron lord use nightmare shroud (I know it says instead of a shooting attack, but many psychic powers are "instead of a shooting attack" and may be used on your opponents turn). And i believe the tomb spyder can use artificer. Thats it for the necron codex. Glad it's all sorted.
You cannot use it during the opponents phase. Your argument about it not being a shooting attack is incorrect. It happens during the shooting phase, AND it is NOT a phsycic attack either. I've had multiple GW judges call this one. Same with the Deveiver's Deceive ability can't be used and RUN as well.
 

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You cannot use it during the opponents phase. Your argument about it not being a shooting attack is incorrect. It happens during the shooting phase, AND it is NOT a phsycic attack either. I've had multiple GW judges call this one. Same with the Deveiver's Deceive ability can't be used and RUN as well.
Just because it doesn't fall into other forms of shooting abilities doesn't mean that it has to become a shooting attack
 

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Just because it doesn't fall into other forms of shooting abilities doesn't mean that it has to become a shooting attack


The issue is that it happens during the shooting phase, and also requires line of sight. Which places it into the direction of being a shooting attack (targetting). I'm not saying how you should play it, just saying how our club has ruled and 2 offcial GW judges have ruled in my case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
So are you saying that all psychic powers that happen in the shooting phase are psychic shooting attacks as well??? Thats like saying everything that happens in the movement phase is a movement, WWBB anyone?
 

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This would make for a very confused game. Tau and eldar both have units that can move in the assault phase. Do they now get to move in both assault phases? As for the eldar powers IIRC they say they say they must be used at the start of the turn and remain in effect until the start of the eldar players turn. So eldrad could manage to fortune 4 units against enemy shooting ( 2 on his turn and 2 on the start of the enemy turn ) even though he can only cast the power twice. I recall tyranid players wanting to be able to use enemy synapse, and while the rules didn't say this would not work it was not allowed when it came up in a game ( without number gaunts was another thing as they come in on the next tyranid turn not the players turn ). If you are determined to do this then go for it, don't expect alot of people to like it or agree though.
 

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So are you saying that all psychic powers that happen in the shooting phase are psychic shooting attacks as well??? Thats like saying everything that happens in the movement phase is a movement, WWBB anyone?
WBB happens BEFORE movement...
 

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Same here, I always roll WBB before movement. Makes it a lot easier and managable. As for psychic powers, one would think that they can only be used in their turn only unless the power specifically mentions that it can/is used in the enemy's turn.
 
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