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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I play against a friend of mine who runs with a Necron army, he beats me pretty handily every time me play, but I read about a week ago that Haywire grenades were supposed to be Monolith kryptonite.

So my question is this:

Suppose I deep strike my swooping hawks next to a monolith, say two to four inches. Do I have to wait until the next turn to use my haywire grenades (because I can't assault after a deep strike) or can I use them right away? The only reference I can find in the codex says that the model using Haywire grenades can only make one attack.
My friend always has a backup squad right behind his monolith, and if I have to eat fire from them for a turn, I might as well just try my luck with a starcannon, and save the points.

---In case my question lacks polish I should mention that I am fairly new to 40k (this year) and I don't know all the rules yet.---
 

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No, haywire grenades and meltabombs are used in assaults only. Basically they get clamped on to the hull of the vehicle and left to go off.

Haywire grenades are slightly better than meltabombs against the monolith because the melta effect of 2D6 armour penetration doesn't work against the monolith, so the best you can ever get is a glancing hit from melta weapons.

A pair of linked fire prisms are still the best way to deal with a monolith though
 

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or a 5 man wraithguard :p 40% pen and 5 shots instead of 40% pen twin linked 1 shot .

They are cheese against monoliths.


But i found that best is to have them all. 5 hawks running around, 5 wraithguard in a twin linked brightlance serpent and 2 prisms. Say hell to the armor busting clowns trouppe

do not forget the lovely combo of eldritch storm and spiders/scatter lasers against IG squadrons.
 

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Haha. I rather enjoyed reading the other post you commented on as well Javlin, I was so confused for a while. First I was like why are there two posts with the same title, then I looked in it and i was just like who the hell are all these people on the eldar forum I've never seen before, and finally i was like why the hell is everyone all of a sudden sucking hawk wee wee?

Those guys pretty much nailed it. If hawks can assault that monolith with intercept, you have a high chance of messing it up by either destroying it, taking off some flux arcs, immobolizing it and certainly taking the next round of shooting out. Make no mistake though: you must assault it in the assault phase to use this trick (intercept+haywires)

The problem, as always, is getting them there with little more than a couple burnt feathers. your necron player may play conservatively and magically have a unit that he uses purely to protect his monolith, but that means he's weak somewhere else. Necrons do not have a lot of points/units to just assign silly jobs to and not be hurt somewhere else in point budget.

Hawks, wraithguard and fire prisms are the ultimate lilth destroyer. Prisms' 60" range is great with linking two for that high Str shot. it's a lot safe for everyone. however, that being said, two prisms take two heavy slots and cost more than a monolith. a strategic squad of hawks costs less and takes only a (relatively invaluable) fast attack slot.
 

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As people said, you do have to wait 'till next turn, so it's usually best to deploy them farther (in cover maybe?) and then use their movement capabilities (12"+1d6"+6", they are still fleet and it's not like the lasblasters would scratch the paint anyway.) to go plant those 'nades.

The Starcannons wouldn't help you against monoliths, they can't even glance it.

Witchblades and singing spears can also, in quantity, help solve your monolith problem.
 

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not sure i see the value of intercept vs a monolith.

intecept lets you hit a vehicle on a 4+ guaranteed, but since a monolith cant move more than 6" (combat speed) it'll be hit on a 4+ anyway (p63). intercept has no effect on the ability of a haywire grenade to penetrate, so it's a redundant ability for this task.
 

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Farseer and five to seven warlocks on jetbikes with witchblades should kill it mighty fast. That's a lot of stength nine attacks. Don't use singing spears though: you'll need all the attacks on the charge you can get. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Wow

Thanks guys, this is exactly what I needed. I'm convinced now that I need to get some Wraithgaurd, so that when there's no cover to drop my Hawks into, I'll still have a viable Anti-Monolith option.

I had forgotten about Intercept, but I believe it's advantage is that you can assault ANY vehicle, that has moved ANY distance, with ANY modifiers, and still always hit on a 4+. Since my friend likes to "park" his Monolith and use it as artillery, I'll be counting on this rule in particular.

Thanks again.:)
 

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Yeah, missile Launchers, and swords if you got the points. Run towards them, shooting at either the 'lith to try to immobilise it, or troops to prepare phase out. But when you get close, assault the Monolith and try to destroy it with S10 attacks. The sword can helpt you hi if it moved, because Wlords have few attacks, you don't want to waste them on a bad roll.
The only thing that can really be a threat to a Wraithlord in the Necron Army are Heavy Destroyers and C'Tan. Everything else will wound the MC on a 6, and you'll still get an armor save, because Necrons don't have many low-AP weapons. Sure, the Power Matrix has S10 AP1 if it's a direct hit, S9 AP3 otherwise, but if it's shooting at your MC it's not shooting at your transports or troops.
I've had wraithlords used against me when playing Necrons, and they are the thing I fear most from Eldar. They take a lot of my army's concentrated fire to take down, and it means the rest of your army is free to either shoot me to oblivion or assault my warriors to achieve Phase Out.
 

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Naked wraithlords are the best monolith solution. Give em the wraithsword and let em go, super cheap, super tough, and a beast in with str10 hits. Only way the eldar get three str 10 hits in one go.

In regards to a previous comment:

Intercept simply makes it so that you can hit it on 4's the turn it drops in, cause when it deepstrikes it counts as having moved fast enough to need 6's. It's nice a nice upgrade imo, but personally i think that the wraithlords with a wraithsword is the best monolitth remover out there. 3 shots of strength 10 with a chance to reroll to hit, you aren't going to get much better than that, even though the linked prism provides a nice AP1 boost, its only one shot. Not to mention that the monolith can't one shot a wraithlord, but it can cook a prism pretty easily espeically
 

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The Monoliths are one of two reasons to take Dragons with Tank Hunters skill.
 

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The Monoliths are one of two reasons to take Dragons with Tank Hunters skill.
I'll suppose you give them a Farseer with doom, and he passes his test:

10 Fire Dragons shoot, 6.666 hit, 2 get a glancing hit, so they roll with -1 instead of -2 thanks to Tank Hunters. They need a 6 to destroy it. Not good odds if you ask me. You have to give them a Transport too, so that's 270 points plus the Doomseer to MAYBE destroy a Monolith, probably waste a turn of shooting. For that price you can get 2 Wraithlords with missile launchers and swords and STILL have points left over.

Tank Hunter Dragons are great at busting vehicles, but are not very good against Monoliths. Plust they are very weak, so they'll only get to shoot once. If you want anti-monolith units, take Wraithlords.
 

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Whoa whoa... what's this doomseer for dragons stuff.... Unfortunately, there is no dooming vehicles, and they are already wounding on 2's for most everything else so a doomseer there is on dragons is usually moot.

Anyway to talk tank hunting, the special rule tank hunting gives +1 to the pen'ing rolls, melta gives +1 to the damage table, so to do some math, shots odds say at least one misses. 5 chances to pen at strength nine, makes something like 1-(5/6)^5 chances for pens - another (5/6)^5 for glances with half of the pen rolls amounting to a wreck and 1/6 of the glance rolls amounting to a wreck you get .5(1-(5/6)^5) chance to wreck based on pen alone, i can' t remember how to do exclusions in real math atm but still that's not bad, especially considering its for a monolith. A wraith lord has very similar stats 2 or 3 hits per assault, each assault has 1-(2/3)^2.5 chance of pen'ing with 1/3 of those wrecking.

Chances to wreck a monolith in ONE round of attacking end result (based on pen'ing hits only):
Dragons shooting.5(1-(5/6)^5)= .299
wraithlord assaulting (1/3)(1-(2/3)^2.5)= .21
sinlge focused prism (1/3)(1-5/6) assuming it always hits (big if).... =.055
Linked focused prism shot (1/2)(1-2/3) assuming it always hits...(much more reasonable for linked)= .167
Squad of 10 with haywire (1/3)(1-(5/6)^5)=.199
Dragons shooting and assaulting .5(1-(5/6)^(5+3 (from 3 tank hunting melta bombs))= .383

Assuming a dragon squad of 6 + tank hunter and that the monolith HAS moved but not deep struck that turn.

I know which I'd choose if i only had one chance at wrecking a monolith. Keep in mind that that the fire dragons have an increased chance as well given that they get wreck on the glance too, as well as the linked prism shot, but you really loose a lot in giving up volume of shots. When it comes down to a real game I'd still probably take a wraith lord over the firedragons simply because it can take a couple of rounds with the particle whip and the flux arc whereas the dragons can't really, they can assault it too for an extra stab at it too... but i still take the wraithlord i think. To be honest i use both in my take all comers list so i don't feel that bad about it either way :) If the monolith has not moved the fire dragons start looking pretty good at nearly 50/50 including the glancing chance. So anyway the cold hard truth about killing monoliths or at least my take on it. Monoliths are beastly no doubt about it.
 

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If you have Fire Dragons, you may really be better off unloading those Meltaguns into the Necron Warriors in order to force a phase-out. Tank shock with your oddly large Wave Serpent to split up the Warriors from the Lord with the Resurrection Orb or the Monolith itself, disembark, then unload with Meltagun fire.

Monoliths are meant to be ignored. I disagree about taking Hawks because they may be one of the better things against Monoliths, but their weapons are really useless against anything else the Necrons have.

I disagree about taking Wraithlords. Wraithlords are big and scary due to their T8 immunity to bolter fire. Necron Gauss weapons can still wound the Wraithlord. Also, Wraithlords are slow and priority targets for the Necrons' fire.

I agree about Fire Dragons being the best choice primarily because they would also be amazing against anything else the Necrons field.
 

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I totally agree that the phase out is the over arching goal when playing against the necrons. While its true that the wraithlord can take wounds from all of his encounters with the gauss weapons its still a six, he still gets a reasonable save, and if you aren't making the necorns come to you you're doing it wrong, so at most the wraithlord has to wade through 2 turns of fire. If they continually pull back their monolith well then good, its outta play and much less of a threat, giving your banshees a chance to waltz in and lower their model count. The necron players around my town HATE the wraithlords and usually spend the first half of the game dedicating the majority of their fire power to beating up my poor wraithlord, which works just fine for me, unhindered advance is always better than a hindered one.

Hawks though...? Assuming that you can get them to the monolith to assault it the chances of them doin anything meaningful i think are pitifully small, maybe they can knock a few points out of the flux arc, immobilize it, shut it up for a turn, the chances of them living through it and getting to try it again on anywhere near an effective number of models the next turn is really low.
 

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You can't disable a Monolith for a turn, because the Power Matrix can be used no matter what, so a live 'lith can always pie plate you or reroll the failed WBB of a unit.

Fusion guns are S8 AP1. The Tank Hunters rule give their rolls on the damage table a +1. Melta means they roll an extra D6 to penetrate if under half of their maximum range. This is negated by the Monolith's Living Metal rule, so Melta is useless against Monoliths.

In other words, Fire Dragons can NEVER penetrate a monolith's armor, so that mathhammer is incorrect. And why does Doom not work against vehicles? I thought abilities that granted re-rolls to wound allowed you to re-roll armor penetration too.

But I'll do the mathhammer with 10 Fire Dragons, no Farseers. 10 shots, 6.6666 hit, 1.11111 glance, none penetrate because they can't, 0.1851 manage to destroy the monolith.

The Wraithlord without sword has 3 attacks (it can move back and charge again to always have the extra attack). 1.5 hit, 0.5 penetrate, 0.1666 destroy. With a sword 2.25 hit, 0.75 penetrate, 0.25 destroy. But that's ignoring the fact that a Wraithlord can also glance and immobilise, and that if any hit, glancing or not, immobilises the Monolith, the Wraithlord will hit with all 3 attacks. That means 1 penetrates, 0.3333 destroy.

So wraithlords are better than Fire Dragons at destroying Monoliths, and cheaper even if you give them additional equipment, plus they'll last longer. Let's contine the mathhammer.

20 Warriors rapid-fire a Wraithlord, or 20 Immortals fire normally.. that's 40 shots. 26.6666 hit, 4.4444 wound, 1.48 go unsaved. Wraithlords, as you see, soak up a LOT of damage.
 
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