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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Alright I'm feeling a bit of a rant on these guys, and id like to see if people agree. So with lno further adue ... *deep breath*

These guys are unbelivably broken, at 15 points a Piece these guys get more power than any other combat units, with the exeption of elite knights (Grail, Chaos and Blook keep now i guess) 2 Attacks each hitting on 3's (almost always) 3 or possibly 2's to wound. And they will always take these attacks because they strike first (great weapons and all) Lets compare that to black orcs and Chaos warriors. They are both the same(ish) points depending on equipment. Sword masters will hit first of them all. They have the highest WS of them all. Although when equipd with great weapons black orcs hit 1 str higher, they suffer the big negative of using great weapons and only get a single attack. And Choas warriors cost 2 points extra for hallaberds or great weapons, and suffer the same disadvantages as the orcs. As far as attacks go they varry, but out side of chosen/khornate chaos warriors with extra weapons, the Sword masters will at least be tied for attacks, then they will have most Strength. Now defence wise swordsmen suffer at shooting, due to their toughness. They have heavy armour, and both other units can take shields adding 1 to their save. But in combat hitting first helps keeps them keep alive, becausethey will likley whipe out a front rank(or in my case 2!)

And although they suffer defencivly in the shooting phase, some races can't even shoot. And certain races will have their shooting killed by magic and Elf shooting.

So now we have bad ass combat unit, sounds so good it must be rare....no wait special. Ohhh and the high elves are specialized so you can litteraly field 10 spearmen (20 at 2000) then a general (and im not even going to add another couple paragraphs on them) then Swordmasters ! 6 units at 2000 is flat rediculous.

I'm sure there are sollutions but do you realy think they are worth 15 pts considering what else 15 points buys.

Thanks for reading

S0m3w0n
 

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Here is my rant against people who aren't particularly good at the game so they rant about something being broken.

Firstly play better next time. They are ld. 8 5+ armour T3 for x amount of points. They are fairly expensive, pretty much every army has a way to deal with these units. I am tired of people complaining about this unit, if you can't find a way too beat them don't cry cheese, find someone who actually knows the game and understands tactics and how to win and ask them how they would deal with it. I could help if you tell me what you use, shoot them, magic them, flank them, chariot them, flee from them. They are a ton of points and are neuralized by a ridiculous amount of things. In all my games against them all they have killed is a grand total of 2 knights before dying (tied with the star dragon).

Also comparing them to Blorcs and chaos wariors is a dumb argument as both units are ridiculously overpriced. Then the rant escalades to include the entire HE army. Frankly, I was not impressed by the army at first and I am still not, the points cost are fair but the army in all is fragile and generally does not have enough units because of the large point costs. Please instead of condemning something them to cheese just ask for tactics first please, I am rather fed up with calling something cheesy because you can't beat it at first.
 

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I actually think they are rather weak. A unit of them costs a massive amount of points, and shooting or magic will just absolutely blitz them. You say races will be neutralized by HE shooting and magic? Well you just described a list which is general, spearmen, 6x swordmasters. I see no magic or shooting their, that list would admitedly be incredibly powerful against other armies with no magic or shooting, but very weak against the majority of others. And HE shooting is rather pathetic; overpriced archers or bolt throwers that I guarantee will never kill their points worth. Our magic can be effective, but it is very expensive in points and won't leave a lot left for an army.

But thats not the point of this thread. SM are weak because they are incredibly easy to kill and cost a huge amount of points. White Lions have good armour to shooting, and still high strength in combat, plus they can hide in woods and are stubborn. Phoenix Guard have ward saves for great all round protection, cause fear and have decent strength. Swordmasters... Well, they have multiple high stregth attacks but thats it, they die very very easily. Yes, if they manage to reach combat they will kill pretty much anything they face short of bad dice rolling, even if the opponent is charging them from the rear. But they are still only one very expensive unit.

Want a few ways to take them out? Hold them with a stubborn unit. Shoot/magic them. Attack them from two sides at once. Use chariots (big one, impact hits go before their great weapons). Use terror. Bait and flee, keeping them out of combat. There are lots of ways to deal with them.
 

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Im not totally sure what you are saying- are you saying that they have been made too good, or are you saying that they are too expensive?

Even at large points games there arent going to be too many of them in any normal HE army, and as you yourself said they are vulnerable to shooting. The armies which lack a great deal of shooting power such as Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms have units capable of beating swordmasters in cc if used correctly.

Yes they are good, but at the end of the day they are elite HE infantry, they are meant to be good, same as Dwarf Hammerers, Empire Knightly orders and Chaos Warriors- lets have less moaning and more constructive tacticas to eliminate these types of units people!
 

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To my crossbowmen or thunderers, swordsmasters may as well come to the field bearing a "shoot me" sign rather than their swords, they won't get to use them.
 

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Herman1004
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^Whatever they say^

I agree SM could cost a point more or so but the army you're describing, would be very easy to beat for any army except maybe a khorne list. I would go as far as saying they are the shock troops of the HE: High damage rate, low survivability.

They are neither broken or overpowered. You compare them to chaos warriors but they are ridiculously overpriced. And if upgraded to chosen i believe they could give SM a run for their money.

Stop ranting, and begin thinking!:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I know they drop to shooting, thata a given with toughness 3 and 5+ armour. But out of the group of people i play with 2 have any serious shooting, and although we could probly all add more thats totaly throws off ballance.

But to be honest i didnt realize Black orcs and chaos were over priced so il try a couple more.

Lizardmen saurus 14 pts Pros spears, cold blood and toughness 4 Cons str 4, innitive 1, ws 3

Lizardmen Temple guard 17 pts Pros Cold blood toughness 4 Cons in 2 ws 4

Im sure I could go on, but do you realy think that they are worth 15 pts considering what else 15 points buys ?

And just because I didnt post about tactics on librarium, dosnt mean i didn't ask about it. And basicaly what I got was, flank them, shoot them. One of which I did (flank) And one of which I didn't have (shooting)
 

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I know they drop to shooting, thata a given with toughness 3 and 5+ armour. But out of the group of people i play with 2 have any serious shooting, and although we could probly all add more thats totaly throws off ballance.

But to be honest i didnt realize Black orcs and chaos were over priced so il try a couple more.

Lizardmen saurus 14 pts Pros spears, cold blood and toughness 4 Cons str 4, innitive 1, ws 3

Lizardmen Temple guard 17 pts Pros Cold blood toughness 4 Cons in 2 ws 4

Im sure I could go on, but do you realy think that they are worth 15 pts considering what else 15 points buys ?

And just because I didnt post about tactics on librarium, dosnt mean i didn't ask about it. And basicaly what I got was, flank them, shoot them. One of which I did (flank) And one of which I didn't have (shooting)
You say you dont have any shooting...what army were you using to play against them?
 

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This is a great discussion, however like Orkimedes41792 I am a bit tired of people complaining like this. Herman also makes a valid point, SM are low surviverability and do yearn to be shot at, an armour save of 5+ is somewhat of a joke in my opinion = ( Furthermore s0m3w0n I must disagree, I think 15 points is an accurate cost, they do seem to get expensive when I am making my lists... And you said you have no range? How can that be? So you are going full melee? I don't mean offence by my next comment but please hear me out. If you are not going to take range (either magic or shooting which EVERYONE HAS, please tell me you can't) then please do not complain about the units of Asur being broken, it seems by you going for a melee list and not being willing to adapt adapt and use range against our SM it is perhaps your own stuborness for not making a more ranged oriented list, however instead of changing it seems you would rather accuse SM as "being broken." Does this make sense sir? I don't mean to offend, and you know, I could be incorrect, I am just stating the most logical explanation to me. (IMHO the only thing that is close to broken is that Anvil of Doom from the Dwarves! But even that may be iffy, there is always ways around stuff, you just gotta stratagize and find out what works. Don't be discouraged, use your cunning and figure out the solution ^^ It is there, where there is a will, there is also a way! ^^)

Regards,

VD*
 

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The only thing I find brokken is Thorek.
I asked you what army you use, if you want help we could aid you in flanking, fleeing from them and whatever was also mentioned if you just tell us what army you are using.

Saurus are also an overpriced unit, you have compared SM to 3 units rarely taken by players. If you compared something that has the same price as SM and is at alleffective then maybe your argument might hold some water. However, I feel that they are accurately priced as vanquisher stated, for example squig hoppers are the same points, can charge an enemy without seeing them, have the same number and strength attacks as SM only their frontage can vary according to the enemy plus they can go through terrain no problem and are ItP. They are more effective than SM imo and are the same price. I would even say Grave Guard and Tomb Guard, who are considrably cheaper than the SM are much better buys.
 

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I dont really think anyone should complain about ANY unit being 'broken', Thorek costs a ridiculous amount of points- how many games are you going to play when that is a good way to spend your points considering how good the rest of the dwarf list is.

Some units and characters are better than others, but they have commensurate points costs- lets stop the fussing and the fighting and just work out ways to neutralise the nastier units in the game through tactics.
 

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Rushing Jaws
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I'm another person who doesn't like calling units "cheesy" or "broken". I would, however, probably call Swordmasters unbalanced, since their offensive power is so much greater than their survivability. I haven't used them, but I do think that they have become a very Rock-Paper-Scissors unit, which is a shame. In some cases they will steamroller all opposition but more likely they will just be shot to pieces. I like swordmasters in the fluff, and would like to have some in my army, but the vulnerability (and the poor models) has put me off.
 

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Bearded Ninja
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Mate... they're ELVES. Look at them the wrong way and the spontaneously combust.

Also remember they're only S5. There is significantly worse out there after all (charging khorne warriors with great weapons anyone? how about a unit of dwarf troll slayers with an entire front rank of giant slayers.) they're good on the offence but they don't even have a glass jaw... it might as well be icing. Longbows, handguns, war machines... all of them maul sword masters. a solid unit of knights can cause them all kinds of harm. (-2 to armour save isn't too critical after all, still a good save compared to what poor infantry get)

Shoot at them, magic them, throw a tar pit at them then down right ignore them. They’re expensive and frail for what they provide. I’m happy to stick my elite level dwarves against them any day of the week and be sure I’ll still have a unit at the end of combat (dwarves are awesome like that).

The moment you cry cheese is the moment you give up in my opinion *nods sagely* :C
 

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Rushing Jaws
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Shoot at them, magic them, throw a tar pit at them then down right ignore them. They’re expensive and frail for what they provide. I’m happy to stick my elite level dwarves against them any day of the week and be sure I’ll still have a unit at the end of combat (dwarves are awesome like that).
That's because after they've swung their swords they realise that they've missed because they can't reach that low without stooping ;)

Perhaps training a unit to fold and throw paper aeroplanes accurately would be a good way of stopping the swordmasters?
 

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I absolutely love they way that you can guarantee a 2 or 3 page thread just by using the words 'broken' or 'cheesy'.

I must admit that I'm not the type of player to buy in to either of these words as I would rather just take anything my opponent can throw at me and do all I can to beat it. Ok so he has a nasty Dwarf Gunline with Thorek. Sure he may beat me 3 or 4 times whilst I'm trying to figure out how to beat it but you can be damn sure that when I do, (and I will), he will be hearing about it until he wishes he had never seen a thunderer.

SM are exactly the same. Yes they are nasty when they get into combat, (but still T3 5+), who can tear through most things. But like so many people have already said they have to get there in the first place and there aren't many armies that can't either magic or shoot at them.

I for one love them and always inclde at least one small flanking unit because I love their potential but I know that I'm going to have to keep the protected one way or the other which takes my attention away from something else in my army which the opponent can focus on.

I would never say that you are a poor player because thats just disrespectful and not really constructive criticism ,which is what I though LO was for, all I will say is that maybe you need to look at the way you can take on anything thrown against you. If a balanced list isn't working against an opponent taking 3 or 4 units of SM then take a really nasty magic heavy army or something with a rediculous amount of firepower and watch the smile dissapear from his face. After all the points he's spending on SM has to come from somewhere.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that no army or for that matter unit is unbeatable you just haven't learned how to yet.
 

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Swordmasters are not broken, neither are they too cheap. They are extremely vunerable to Shooting, Magic, and if not fully ranked then also to flanks.
If you haven't got the ability to do any of this then your probably stuck march blocking then charge diverting them.

It costs more points to buy a fully ranked with command Swordmasters unit than:
  • 40 Goblins, spears & nets with 3 fanatics
  • 10 Thunderers and 20 Dwarf Warriors
  • 10 Glade Guard and 10 Wardancers
  • 25 Swordsmen, 10 Handgunners and 10 Swordsmen
  • Bolt Thrower & 20 HE Spear Elves
None of which are 'broken' combinations.
 

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Swordmasters are not broken, neither are they too cheap. They are extremely vunerable to Shooting, Magic, and if not fully ranked then also to flanks.
If you haven't got the ability to do any of this then your probably stuck march blocking then charge diverting them.

It costs more points to buy a fully ranked with command Swordmasters unit than:
  • 40 Goblins, spears & nets with 3 fanatics
  • 10 Thunderers and 20 Dwarf Warriors
  • 10 Glade Guard and 10 Wardancers
  • 25 Swordsmen, 10 Handgunners and 10 Swordsmen
  • Bolt Thrower & 20 HE Spear Elves
None of which are 'broken' combinations.
And all combinations that would give said unit of SMs a headache.
 

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A legend in my own mind.
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What I am about to say may not agree with others, but hearing "cheesy" so much has forced this from me.


Cheesy is a term made by people who can't cope with their opponents setup, and want to limit their opponent in some way to make victory easier on them. Myself, if I can beat a "cheesy" army, that is a great accomplishment. What you see as cheesy I see as a challenge. For those of you who say "well the cheesy guy is not trying to learn any real strategy". To that I say so what? His problem, not mine. No army is unbeatable. Even cheesy armies can be beaten unless someone is blantantly cheating.


With that said, I beleive the fact SM can now strike first makes up for their frailness. This is useless against being shot at, but in close combat they have a better chance of taking more of the enemy's models out, thus lowering his attack efficiency (SP) and the less models he has to hit back.
 

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Nerf Dave's avatar
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Single Chariot of any make shape or design into the flank of Swordpansies Marks the end of said unit. Also Shoot em that simple. Hell mate i play ogre's and i have no problems finding enough shots to send em home to knit or do whatever non manly thing HElves do in their free time.
 
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