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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello everyone, I'm having a bit of a problem concerning tactics; I understand there are several tacticas aimed at GK/DH which I have read, but I was hoping for a more direct response to my question.

I'm having a lot of trouble winning against static, heavy firepower armies, in specific, IG. This is usually whether I play pure GKs or regular (puritan) DH (though I'm having more tactical issues with the GKs, so I'll stick mainly to them in this post). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to play a good game and lose, but this is getting frustrating.

I know GKs aren't the beasts in close combat they are sometimes made out to be, certainly compared to some other units, but I can't help feeling that against IG (and Tau, for that matter), my main priority is to get straight into combat, hopefully shooting down units on the way.

However, while all that seems fine in theory, I've found that in particular my PAGKs (and sometimes Terminators, which I'll come to later) are getting shot so much that by the time they reach the enemy lines, I've either lost an entire squad of 10 men or that they've been whittled down so much that when they finally do reach combat, there's 3 - 5 men left at best. Granted, they have no problem smacking a squad of stormtroopers up, but then I find myself too good in close combat; wiping an entire unit out in my turn, only to be standing around looking gormless in the enemy turn and awaiting a face full of las fire.

This wouldn't seem so bad, I'm sure, if I had 4 - 5 squads and could realistically tie up several squads in combat, but with 3x 10 man squads getting torn up by shooting I usually have very little following reaching the front lines. The only thing I haven't tried is taking 5 - 6 5 man squads, which, if they reached the IG line, could theoretically hold up most of the enemy units, but surely they'd be quite vulnerable to fire?

I tried mounting a unit in a LRC in a game yesterday, who survived to the front line just fine, but the moment they found themselves winning a combat and subsequently standing out in the open from the new consolidation rules, they too suffered a massive barrage of fire.

Too add to my frustration, the IG player I play the most has developed the habit of taking about 4 5 man stormtrooper squads armed with 2 plasma guns. Which, as you can imagine, doesn't help my terminators :pissed-off:.

From my understanding, DH/GK are difficult to play, whereas IG tactics remain relatively steady (correct me if I'm wrong). My ultimate question is, what am I doing wrong here? Why am I consistently losing?

As a little extra info, here is a quick rundown of the (1500pt) list I played yesterday.

BC, PC
3x 10 PAGK (1 squad with incinerator (which worked a treat))
1 x LRC (transporting squad with inc)
2 x Dreadnoughts (both TLLC ML (probably a mistake in hindsight)

vs.

(I think this list is fairly accurate)

1x Command squad (with an autocannon, I think?)
3x Sanctioned psykers (who did absolutely nothing)
1x IG Platoon, with various heavy & spec weaps in 2x Lascannon, 1 or 2x autocannon and lots of grenade and missile launchers.
3x squads of 5 stormtroopers with 2 plasmaguns
2x Stormtroopers squads (7 men) with 2 melta guns
1x Leman Russ Demolisher
2x Basilisks (w/ indirect fire)
3x Sentinels

-----

And here is a full list of what I own (I'm presenting this because I'm loathe to buy any more models due to GW business practise).

8x Terminators (including one model to represent a BC or GM)
1x Inq with shooty retinue
2x DC Assassins (barely use them any more)
1x Callidus Assassin
30x PAGKs
20x Inq STs
2x Chimeras/Rhinos
1x LRC/LR (I've made it so it can be either)
3x Dreadnoughts (one of which is the AOBR box set DN that I had for free :D)

Right... sorry about the length! But I'd really appreciate some help.
 

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durus
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I play both IG and Grey Knights so I do have experience with both. Those armies like your Ordnance heavy lists of IG are murder on walking Knights.

Here is what I recommend (in a perfect world):

You need to get more units into CC, so I would take:

2 LRC (or reg LR) and fill them with 10 man squads of PAGKs and a Grand Master. You can use a Grandmaster to assault a second squad on his own, don't keep him with PAGKs,

Take a shooty ][= Lord squad (Psycannon, 3 HB Servitors, 2 Sages, 2 Mystics )

Definatly take a Callidus Assassin :sinister: (good for moving a HW squad behind so it can't shoot first turn or moving a Bassie into the open) Then great for taking out IG command squads, HW Platoons, Broadsides or Etherials etc. She loves to kill IG and Tau.

Hellfire dread if you have the points.

The only model I think you will need is the other LR.

If you can't get another LR, then use FAGK squads called down by a teleport homer on either a GM or Justicar.

The other thing you could do is keep PAGK squads back in cover with 2 psycannons and hope for good shrouding rolls, but that doesn't work well against ordnance.

Hope these help.

Cheers, DH
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the info guys. I may buy another LR in the future (I don't think I'll ever be in a situation where I want two LRCs (someone correct me if you think this is an oversight, please), and buying a LRC and the sprue to turn into either costs an extra £12) to maximise a water warrior list. But for the time being, I'm probably going to stick to a full 'dex army rather than just Grey Knights. If I do buy another LR it'll definetly be from ebay or 2nd hand!
 

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Diggum's advice is spot on. I would second the idea of taking two raiders. The LRC is fine, but not a requirement. Personally, I would favor the normal raiders over the crusader, just because you have slightly better odds of popping armour in the long run over the Crusader, and it's really the enemy armour that is the issue, not the enemy infantry. (I'm assuming you'll be playing codex RAW, Assault 3, non-rending assault cannons. If you can agree with your opponent that you get the "normal" AC rules, then it's a wash.)

I would also second the Callidus assassin. She's brutal against "weak" troops like IG.

Of course, to unlock her, you need an Inquisitor. I also like shooty I-lords, but if points are tight you can get by with a simple Elite Inquisitor with a TP homer. join him to a GK squad mounted in a raider -- or even put him in the raider all alone! -- and call down GKT pain to the spot you require. That said, I would ultimately favor taking a single Elite Inquisitor with a psycannon and joing him with...

... a 2x psycannon GK Troops squad. This unit is actually a great defense against ordnance ... provided you deploy them in cover! You should always be getting, therefore, 4+ saves at the worst against anything the IG can throw at you. And if you've got the Inquisitor with you, that's 9 psycannon shots heading downrange, all protected by the shrouding. At 30"+, the shrouding is wonderfully effective. Such a unit will cause a lot of pain, hold an objective, and stick around all game.

Speaking of cover, are you playing with enough terrain? The game is predicated on 25% table coverage. If you're playing with significantly less than that -- and it's surprising how many people do -- then the DH/GKs are always going to be at a significant disadvantage against ... well, just about everybody!

So, marching orders ;) :

1. Play with enough terrain. (Try and mix in some sight-blocking terrain, too, as difficult as that can be under 5th edition.)

2. Use your land raider. Two, if you can get another one. If you can't get a second, than throw in two dreadnoughts with TLLC/ML to help pound armour from distance.

3. Use your Callidus Assassin.

4. Figure out your Inquisitor role. I would favor the cheap psycannon with GK psycannons, second a full I-lord shooty firebase, and 3rd a cheap TP homer doormat.

5. Use a GK psycannon Troops unit to hunker down in cover and hold an objective, causing pain from distance.

Let us know what happens in your future engagements!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
(I'm assuming you'll be playing codex RAW, Assault 3, non-rending assault cannons. If you can agree with your opponent that you get the "normal" AC rules, then it's a wash.)
The IG player is my housemate, and we play reasonably often - RAW for pretty much everything, with the exception of assault cannon, (and telehomer, but that's only because it doesn't actually work in 5th RAW) where we use the SM statline - it just seems more sensible, and afterall, unlike Space Wolves, GKs don't kit out entire infantry squads with AC so using the SM statline doesn't seem like an unfair advantage either.

Oh, and what do you mean by "it's a wash"? I've never heard that expression before:\

Of course, to unlock her, you need an Inquisitor. I also like shooty I-lords, but if points are tight you can get by with a simple Elite Inquisitor with a TP homer. join him to a GK squad mounted in a raider -- or even put him in the raider all alone! -- and call down GKT pain to the spot you require. That said, I would ultimately favor taking a single Elite Inquisitor with a psycannon and joing him with...

... a 2x psycannon GK Troops squad. This unit is actually a great defense against ordnance ... provided you deploy them in cover!
I forgot to mention in my army list, I've actually got 2 inquisitors (granted, one of them is holding an inferno pistol, but I've yet to meet anyone who'll refuse to play me based on one or two non-WYSIWYG models). Would you recommend using both of them in any of the roles mentioned, like one shooty Inq Lord and one with a psycannon and GKs?

I don't usually play with a Inq doormat (though it's certainly not something I object to trying), I tend to use IST vets for that role - of course, that ultimately depends on what they're doing, I don't want to bring down my FAGKs in the wrong place, afterall.

EDIT: Number6 - If I can't get 2 LRs, so I take 1x LR, are 2x TLLC/ML DNs necessary? With IG he typically uses 1 Leman Russ, 2 Basilisks and 3 sentinels. Wouldn't an AC/DCCW DN be better in this circumstance, as it could also take on troops. I may well be wrong, but that many TLLCs seems a lot vs. that IG army.
 

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Oh, and what do you mean by "it's a wash"? I've never heard that expression before:\
Heh. It means, "everything pretty much balances out".
Fixxxer said:
I forgot to mention in my army list, I've actually got 2 inquisitors (granted, one of them is holding an inferno pistol, but I've yet to meet anyone who'll refuse to play me based on one or two non-WYSIWYG models). Would you recommend using both of them in any of the roles mentioned, like one shooty Inq Lord and one with a psycannon and GKs?
If you've got the points to spare, go for it! However, I can always find a place to put 50 pts, so when I field a shooty I-lord firebase, I don't use my second Inquisitor model very often. I find myself using the 50 pt psycannon Inquisitor because he meshes well with the GKs, I get a firebase of sorts, and it saves me points while allowing me to use assassins.
Fixxxer said:
EDIT: Number6 - If I can't get 2 LRs, so I take 1x LR, are 2x TLLC/ML DNs necessary? With IG he typically uses 1 Leman Russ, 2 Basilisks and 3 sentinels. Wouldn't an AC/DCCW DN be better in this circumstance, as it could also take on troops. I may well be wrong, but that many TLLCs seems a lot vs. that IG army.
Possibly. While the russ is far and away the toughest vehicle out there, I assumed that the basilisks would be hiding in cover and often benefiting from 4+ cover. Multiple lascannons and missiles give you that many more chances to outright destroy these things quick, which is of utmost importance. You don't need many GKs to mop up IG infantry, and even without DCCWs, IG will be hard pressed to survive a dread assault if you manage to get one in. Beyond that, once you've finished the armour, you can fire lascannons and frag missile templates into IG units and blast them to pieces while angling for such an assault.

I just think the armour is so important that it's worth investing in the hellfire kit to combat it. If nothing else, it should force your opponent to carefully evaluate whether he needs to target your infantry or your armour. Ugly choices like this are what you want to force upon him whenever possible.

Sentinels hold no fear for me. They can be stopped with enough stormbolter glances and/or quickly subdued in a round of close combat with GKs.
 

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BC, PC
3x 10 PAGK (1 squad with incinerator (which worked a treat))
1 x LRC (transporting squad with inc)
2 x Dreadnoughts (both TLLC ML (probably a mistake in hindsight)

Ok well the LRC is a great option, Terminators are best inside their maybe with a Grandmaster (really efficient in close combat), They should be able to weather most las fire. And even destroy tanks on back armor too!
The best way to make a tactical advance on foot is stick to one side of the table that has lots of cover and then use deepstriking units as fresh reserves.
I would similary change my list to fight him, if i knew he did the same. Just add more incinerators and they will be toast.
I think in this case your troops are suffering from lack of infantry support, two A.t. dreadnoughts is good, but it won't help against stormtroopers with plasmaguns.
imo a Land Raider is better than two dreadnoughts and is cheaper! Stick GK's with 2 incinerators in their and it'll work a treat. Also the Land Raider is great mobile cover, being able to move your GK's from one side of the LR to another to prevent Heavy bolters mowing you down is great! It's top class infantry support! Another option is dreadnought AC/DCCW walk with Gk's with a big gun and big fist.
Ohyeah I nearly forgot, Stormtroopers with meltaguns inside the rhino are good anti tank.
 

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Also remember against certain foes attempting to cut off their armies benefits through use of terrain and deployment is key. We are smaller which makes us more maneuverable and able to bring our full firepower against smaller elements.
 

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I like using the IST-s with plasmas, cheap and efficient squads and they have a nasty habit of being almost invisible ( small low cost troops with s3 guns, what can they do? - kill your Leman Russ :D ). They are more anti-armor, mostly luck based, but I managed to get 6-s on armor penetration checks, and thats 13, which is good!
I like the teleport idea, but i dislike the 2 LR-s. thats a 8 man+Jsquad,
 

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if yall are doing the new deployment have him deploy first and take second turn (i know, against guard it sounds crazy) but that way he'll most likely deploy along the whole board. Then you overload on one side (pick the more mobile side, we want his other side to spend a few turns getting to you) with 2 Land raiders you should be able to screen all your men that's not inside the land raider from the rest of his army.

Or if you want to be really cheap you could take some indoctrinated guard of your own. Take a sinlge platoon and give them nothing but grenade launchers or just nothing and stretch them all along the board if you can and march/run them across the board as fast as you can that way your grey knights have mobile cover for the first 2 turns or so.

Or you could go completely mechanized. Have 2 land raiders (i'd say regular for 4 TL lascannons for those tanks) 1 w/termies the other w/PAGK and then 2 PAGK in rhinos and then if you have points some IST in chimera's to provide anti infantry firepower.

Don't forget in the FAQ your land raiders have power of the machine spirit
 

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Or you could go completely mechanized. Have 2 land raiders (i'd say regular for 4 TL lascannons for those tanks) 1 w/termies the other w/PAGK and then 2 PAGK in rhinos and then if you have points some IST in chimera's to provide anti infantry firepower.
Only problem is that PAGK's can't get Rhinos =/. There was a brief shining moment where they undedicated transports, but the latest rulebook FAQ rededicated them, and that light was extinguished forever =).

-H
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Only problem is that PAGK's can't get Rhinos =/. There was a brief shining moment where they undedicated transports, but the latest rulebook FAQ rededicated them, and that light was extinguished forever =).
Quite frankly, I'm glad; I really don't like the idea of GKs in Rhinos, it just makes us too similar to vanilla marines.
 

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LO Ninja
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if yall are doing the new deployment have him deploy first and take second turn (i know, against guard it sounds crazy) but that way he'll most likely deploy along the whole board. Then you overload on one side (pick the more mobile side, we want his other side to spend a few turns getting to you) with 2 Land raiders you should be able to screen all your men that's not inside the land raider from the rest of his army.

Or if you want to be really cheap you could take some indoctrinated guard of your own. Take a sinlge platoon and give them nothing but grenade launchers or just nothing and stretch them all along the board if you can and march/run them across the board as fast as you can that way your grey knights have mobile cover for the first 2 turns or so.

Or you could go completely mechanized. Have 2 land raiders (i'd say regular for 4 TL lascannons for those tanks) 1 w/termies the other w/PAGK and then 2 PAGK in rhinos and then if you have points some IST in chimera's to provide anti infantry firepower.

Don't forget in the FAQ your land raiders have power of the machine spirit
Haha this was copied and pasted from B&C water warrior post. Very interesting post nether the less but credit should go where credits due.

PL
 

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Quite frankly, I'm glad; I really don't like the idea of GKs in Rhinos, it just makes us too similar to vanilla marines.
Me either, Imo it provides little protection and doesn't give any fire support.
Although Yeah we do lose the assault Meq formation with Land Raiders hiding Rhinos :(.
... We can still use Meq Meltaguns instead.
Imo guardsmen are cannon fodder and a 4+ cover isn't as good as a Land Raider for mobile cover.
 
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