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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, the local GW store is holding a tournament a while from now and I was feeling like showing my devotion to the dark gods by bringing in my Daemons. I had thought out a list and wanted some feed back on it. It’s good to get an opinions from other followers.

Tournament Grade Daemons 2250
HQ-
Skull Taker on Chariot
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch

Elite-
4 Flamers of Tzeentch
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3 Flamers

Troops-
9 Blood Letters
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9 Blood Letters
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10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch & Icon
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9 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Changeling, Bolt of Tzeentch & Icon
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5 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch & Icon
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5 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch

Fast Attack-
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch

Heavy Support-
Daemon Prince w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze
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Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
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Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm

Group A – Blitzkrieg
3 Heralds of Tzeentch
4 Squads of Horrors
2 Soul Grinders


Group B- Melee Assault
Skull Taker
2 Squads of Flamers
2 Squads Blood Letters
3 Squads of Screamers
Daemon Prince



The initial strategy is, fighting any army with a main stream Armor Save of +4 or worse, will be obliterated by the mind shattering torrent of Warp Fire and Phlem Templates. Then in the turns to fallow, I use the icons to bring down the melee monsters and get them to mop up any survivors.

When fighting against an army with MEQs, I use the first wave of Horrors as a Screen and call down my melee units behind them and advance. Once they get into melee, it pretty much solves the problem of +3 or +2 armor saves.

Strengths-
All of them carried by the Daemons Army (Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Deep Striking, Inv)
Strong Anti-Infantry
High Invulnerable Saves
A Large Force (For Daemons anyways)

Weaknesses-
All of the ones that Daemons normally have to deal with (Low Saves, Everything is Expensive, an all-pewter range, Land Raiders ect…)

I feel there is a noticeable lack of anti-monster and anti-armor in the list, that just might be my imagination (As I am to use to playing LATD with 7 Bolts of Change and 9 Lascannons)




A few comments of my own-

A) I would like to have more Flamers, but I find the more I have, the more they go to waste. I was told that 3 squads of 3 is the best way to go, but I couldn’t bring myself to pay the points. I know Fiends and Blood Crushers are the higher end favorites of most players, but this month, about 50% or more of the players will be playing guard (Our local store is a sucker for them, and most love the armor flavor) and I can’t really rely on rolling a 6 just to get an additional d3 in rending. Auto glancing on 4+ is not that much better, but I find Breath of Chaos more effective and versatile.

B ) Screamers, I love Melta Bombs, I hate 1 Attack per model, I love Jet Bike Movement, I hate WS 3, but I really love +4 Inv Saves and only 16 points a model. I know they could be better at vehicle killing, but with the many armor lists I will have to face, wasting a few 16 point guys to kill off a Russ or Land Raider is worth it. And they do serve other roles. But is 3 squads of 3 too much?

C) Daemon Prince, I wanted to give him the Iron Hide and the Mark so he would be staying around, but the points could be spent else where.
Has anyone fielded a Daemon Prince (Competitively, I have used this build many times while having friendly games) with the Mark Tzeentch and no Iron Hide, how survivable do you find it?

D) My Soul Grinders roll with Phlegm, as it is a short-range, assault Battle Cannon. The Tongue is cool, being a short-range, assault Rail Gun. But I feel it is wasted thanks to their BS of 3.
Is it worth it to pay the extra 25 points on one or both Soul Grinders to get the Tongue?

E) ( 1.0 ) Skull Taker on Chariot mostly exists to deal with other multi wound/ monstrous creatures. He is a personal favorite and possibly the best melee infantry unit in the game. Sadly,for his point cost, I could trade him in of a HoT and still have points left over.


( 2.0 ) If I was to free up this list for more Points, I would take out Skull Taker, Replace him with a HoT and remove an Icon from the small Pink Horror Squad. This would free up about 75. If I do this, what should it be spent on? I was possibly thinking of joining the two small horror squads and buying a small unit of Plaguebearers.


I would like some constructive feed back. I know this is one of the armies in 40k that split players down the middle (Like Fiends or Blood Crushers, GUO is not as good as Bloodthirster, but GUO costs a little more then half his points, Flesh Hounds are garbage, no they are not- they assault 12’…and so on and so on) but I am open to improvements. This list is met to be mostly shooty with melee support, thus the reason of Flamers and not the other elite choices.
 

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Formerly Prince of Excess
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Post this in Army Lists.
 

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At 2000 points Daemons seem to fade a bit compared to other armies.

A MAJOR flaw I see is youve got yourself 18 kill points in that list. If its annihilation, your probably going to lose.

Secondly, Drop 1 flamer then you can add iron hide, and the Changling. (he's too cool) 4s going to suck if you do get a chance to breath a unit when you drop and then you cant use one because of others in the way.

Screamers.. ehhhhhhh.... im not a fan, unless they are in groups of five. Youve got a lot of bolts already in the list. For CC theyre usless, but they are good for objective contesting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
This is my new list, but this one was designed to fight guard, and most of the people I will be fighting are marines and wolfs. So it might get another make over.

HQ-

Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch , Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch

Elite-
3 Flamers of Tzeentch
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3 Flamers of Tzeentch
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3 Flamers of Tzeentch

Troops-
10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch & Chaos Icon
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10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Changeling, Bolt of Tzeentch & Chaos Icon
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10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch & Icon
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5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle
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5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle
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5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle

Fast Attack-
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch

Heavy Support-

Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
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Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
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Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
 

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That looks pretty solid to me. Would it hurt badly to put the Oracle in there? He just creates so many headaches for an opponent that it might be worth it. I like the Screamers, such an under-rated unit. I might think about Tongue for the Grinders though, all you have for AV14 are Screamers and lucky BoT.

What's your ideal first drop?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Well, I have two drop layouts, one that is balanced and one that is fro when I am feeling lucky. First the lucky one, I call it that because the entire first wave is nothing but powerhouse shooting and all the loose bits deep strike onto the field in the later turns to help clean up. I call this the lucky drop because my luck borderline fails. And some times I end up rolling a 1 or 2 for choosing the force and my oppent gets all these random untis that don't start well with each other.

-Lucky-
1st Wave-
4 Heralds
3 Soul Grinders
3 Squads of Horrors

2nd Wave-
3 Flamers
3 Screamers
3 Plaguebearers

And the balanced drop for those days I know my luck is bad.

-Balanced-

1st Wave-
2 Heralds
2 Soul Grinders
2 Screamers
2 Flamers
1 Plaguebearer

2nd Wave-
2 Heralds
3 Horrors
1 Soul Grinder
1 Flamers
1 Screamers
2 Plaugebearers


For the most part I feel the list is great versus any non MEQ armies, but it seems the new wolves and classic marines are going to be the majority of what I will be fighting. So I feel the need to add more MEQ slaying power.

Fate Weaver, is a monster indeed. But a few problems. First, the list is mostly designed to be used with the "lucky" drop, so the first wave shoots an entire torrent of fire, crippling the other player's vital units (A Nidzilla list is not that bad to fight when all the MC are dead.) But the thing that gives it the edge is the amount of units to do this, since the first half of army has to be deep strike in, the more units you have in the army as a whole, the more you can cram into the first wave.

If I added Fae Weaver, I would loose one Herald, and replace the second for the HQ slot, freeing up 221 pts (the extra 1 point is the only point left after building the list in the first place.) That means, I will have to take out one critical unit or two smaller support units just to get enough points, which makes the list smaller and as a result, have a less destructive first wave. But in his defense, it wouldn't need to be so destructive if it could live longer.

I was originally going to add Fate Weaver to the list and order one of the old school lords of change from ebay. I got it shipped about a week ago, but the problem is it was located in the sticks of the southern states of America (as I live in Canada, and all the old school stuff comes from the southern states or the UK, but the pound is too much to pay for for the average cheep person like myself.) So, the probelm is that I still have to paint the entire army and assemble the last few screamers, which are converted through a painfully slow processes.) and I don't knwo when the package is getting here and the tournament is 10 days away, of which most of those days I work.) So, if I get the model in on time and can get it ready for table top quality, I will use it as Fate Weaver if not, I will use the list as it is.


So, if I got my oop Lord of Change in time, what would you drop from the list (asides the two heralds) to get the points to field him?
 

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I don't know how many points your units are so it's a bit tough. I'd probably drop Screamers first, 3 units is a bit much. If you get Tongue on 1-2 Grinders you don't need the Meltas so badly. However they are hella cheap and make the list bigger, as you said.

Depending on how big the point gap is I'd consider dropping the Icons if you're close. They aren't that good from what I've seen the few guys who play Demons here. The average scatter is 6-8" and you hit 1/3 of the time so it's not your biggest obstacle.

Kind of uninformed without point values though, sorry. It's a good list either way though imo.
 

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Don't bother dividing up your waves, you don't have to pick them until your first turn which is well after you know what your playing. Divide your waves then to better set up for what your going to deal with
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for the advice you guys. I would probably drop the icons and two heralds (As I have played mostly melee daemons ever since I got the codex and fin it to be pricesless, but in a shooty army, I can see its flaws. generating about 285 pts. Screamrs seem like the choice to pick on, but with the amount of Marines, I am expecting to see one or more land raiders every single game. I think I would drop the unit of Plaugebeaers becuase they can only really help in 2/3 missions types, and one of the ones it can help in only has a max of three obectives, so piratically, 2/3 games I use they will be useless. So removeing them will give me 360, enough to get Fateweaver and have 30 pts left over, which I am not sure will be spent on. I could get a few more Horrors, some Unholy mights for the screamers, a Tongue or if I remove a few more points elsewear, I might be able to squeeze in some nurglings.
 

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If you're facing mainly Marines I'd drop the Flamers for points. They are really cool but they do things you already have on lock down.

I'd run either Tongue or Phlegm on the Grinders, both is to many points. One Tongue two Phlegm of visa versa seems good.
 

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Fiends >>>> everything.

I know I say it all the time, but it's true. Flamers glance on a 4+, to what end? Glancing hits don't destroy vehicles. Fiends get 6 attacks each with S5 and rending and they're cheaper. Plus, Fiends are more resilient and hold up a lot better in assault. They murder marines in combat.

Screamers are not reliable tank busters. If you've got melta bomb jetbikes running around, the smart marine player is moving his Land Raider 12" per turn. You hit on a 6 and he can still fire a weapon or jump assault troops out. Screamers get dead real quick too with only a 4+ save and small unit sizes.

Your best bet against LR is MCs, Tongue, or Bolt. None of these are particularly reliable, but they are just as good if not better than Screamers and are flexible and capable of performing other roles.

Fateweaver is neat, especially with Tzeentch DPs (I don't consider Iron Hide mandatory, his job is to shoot tanks so keep him cheap and get more) or anything with a good save. He will draw lots of fire and a PBS will send him packing in 1 turn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
A quick Revamping will lead me to one of these two lists-

HQ-
Fate Weaver
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Blood Thirster w/ Unholy Might & Blessings of the Blood God

Elite-
5 Fiends of Slannesh w/ Unholy Might
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5 Fiends of Slannesh
(Or Replace these with Flamers to get extra cheese from Fate Weaver)

Troops-(695)
10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch
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10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Changeling, Bolt of Tzeentch
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9 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch
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5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle
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5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle

Fast Attack-
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch

Heavy Support-

Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
--
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
--
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm


Or
HQ-
Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch , Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch
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Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion & Bolt of Tzeentch

Elite-
3 Flamers of Tzeentch
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3 Flamers of Tzeentch
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3 Flamers of Tzeentch

Troops-
10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch & Chaos Icon
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10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Changeling, Bolt of Tzeentch & Chaos Icon
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10 Horrors of Tzeentch w/ Bolt of Tzeentch & Icon
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5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle
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5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle
--
5 Plague Bearers of Nurgle

Fast Attack-
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch
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3 Screamers of Tzeentch

Heavy Support-

Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
--
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
--
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm
 

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The first list is beastly. In would take that. It's actually one of the better Demon lists I've seen around here. A Bloodthirster dropping with the Oracle....that sucks. You've got a Thirster, 9 Screams and Grinders in CC for anti-tank so you seem well enough off there.

The thing I like the most is you can drop several scary units with re-rolled saved. That's going to draw LOTS of attention so your late game drops can just sit happily on objectives.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks for the comments. I knew it would be effective, but to get openly be given praise makes my day. You are right, if I send Fateweaver and the Thirster down in the first drop, they will need some support. As much as Fiends rock at close combat, I think I will replace them with flamers. Fiends do have two wounds, but I would still rather have a unit of re-roll +4 inv saves then only +5. Plus, Fiends need to be in cobat to pwn, Flamers don't need to and can shoot the turn they come into play. This extra shooting will help soften up any near by stuff getting ready to kill Fate Weaver before he even gets a chance to be cheesy Plus as Jump Infantry they can do all kinds of weird and wacky tricks with their extra movement that flies over stuff.
 

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Sounds good to me. Flamers are still pretty good and will give you a little better contesting.
 
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