[Vazzaroth]

I'm trying to develop a very shooty, non-mech list/army style for the IG army I'm thinking about starting and my initial lists always disappoint me. After I get my platoon and vet squad set up, I find myself hurting to squeeze out the points I need to field the vehicles I want, in this case for a 1000 pt list. Two things are contributing I think.

1) How much can I really expect a lasgun to do in combat? With Str 3, and ap -, am I right in not expecting much, or do they tend to outperform they're statline expectation? I know IG are about massed fire, but 10 lasguns is still only 20 shots at best, and I've wethered that amount of bolter shots without too much problem as Orks. So my faith in the flashlights is fairly low initially. And because of that:

2) When is too much when it comes to Heavy Weapon teams? My current platoon for a 1K game had 2 heavy weapons squads, one with missile launchers and one with mortars. Most of my other in-squad teams had either missile launchers or autocannons. Would I just be better off getting some more regular infantry squads and combining? And as a side question: Am I right in thinking that the heavy weapon teams are required for the infantry squads since they DON'T say "may"?

I'm trying to get a somewhat sizable Infantry presence, while still being able to field a squad or 2 of Sentinels( Im thinking 2 scouts and 2 Armored), a Hellhound, and 1-3 Leman Russes depending on the game size. Any ordinance batteries would be awesome ( I really like the Griffins) but I know that might be too much armor for less than 2K games.

Basically, it all boils down to: If I want a fairly mixed infantry and tank/artillery, long range army, what ratio should I shoot for between Tanks, Upgraded (IE Weapon teams, vets) Guardsmen, and normal trash, lasgun wielding, objective capping guardsmen?

 

[Ravendove]

1) How much can I really expect a lasgun to do in combat? With Str 3, and ap -, am I right in not expecting much, or do they tend to outperform they're statline expectation? I know IG are about massed fire, but 10 lasguns is still only 20 shots at best, and I've wethered that amount of bolter shots without too much problem as Orks. So my faith in the flashlights is fairly low initially. And because of that:

You can't expect too much of the Lasgun, unfortunately. With orders (First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!) you can expect to kill 1.66 marines per 10-man Infantry Squad. But this should always be supported by heavy weapons and special weapons.

2) When is too much when it comes to Heavy Weapon teams? My current platoon for a 1K game had 2 heavy weapons squads, one with missile launchers and one with mortars. Most of my other in-squad teams had either missile launchers or autocannons. Would I just be better off getting some more regular infantry squads and combining? And as a side question: Am I right in thinking that the heavy weapon teams are required for the infantry squads since they DON'T say "may"?

Every squad that can, should take a Heavy Weapon Team. They certainly don't have to - they are completely optional - but when an Autocannon costs only 10pts it is always worth it. I don't really like Heavy Weapon Squads because those 3 x 2-Wound models can all be killed by things like a single Multilaser. Infantry Squads in most people's eyes are just additional bodies and protection for Heavy/Special Weapons.

At 1500pts, I like to have at least 6 Meltaguns and 6 Autocannons. Sometimes I take vets, sometimes not. Platoon Command Squads can double as Vets if you're short on points - the fourth special weapon makes up for the lost Ballistic Skill. At 1500, I run some variation of this list depending on how I feel that day:

CCS w/ 4 Melta, Chimera (ML/HF) 145

Inquisitor w/ 2 Mystics 32

Vets w/ 3 Melta, Chimera (ML/HF) 155
Vets w/ 3 Melta, Chimera (ML/HF) 155
Platoon A:
- PCS w/ 4 Flamers 50 (goes in Vendetta)
- IS w/ AC/GL 65
- IS w/ AC/GL 65
- IS w/ AC/GL 65
Platoon B:
- PCS w/ 4 Flamers 50 (goes in Vendetta)
- IS w/ AC/GL 65
- IS w/ AC/GL 65

Vendetta 130
Vendetta 130

Demolisher 165
Demolisher 165

It's all very relative to the rest of your army. Have you got an army list worked out?

 

[Hockeyman506]

Ravendove, I would love to play against that list. I've been putting up with too many sub-par matches where I play and this would be a good challenge.

 

[Vazzaroth]

Why yes I do!
http://www.librarium-online.com/for...-2nd-milita-themed-semi-competitive-list.html

I am going to edit it soon since I realized the one I originally made pretty much sucks.
That advice is very useful for me. It looks similar to the kind of army I want to play. I wasn't planning on getting any Valkyries/Vendettas however. I've been trying to avoid transports just because I know Mechanized is pretty much the most popular armies right now... do you think I need to give in and have a few to remain competitive at all? If I did it would probably be on melta-vets like you have there. I normally hate meltas for their range, but with the chimera I can justify using them. I personally err on the side of Missile Launchers for infantry in the ML VS AC debate, although I was planning on putting ACs on my Sentinels. I love the grenade launchers though so at least I seem to have that working out well already.

I planned on keeping my PCS and CCS close to my infantry troops for the orders, but now I'm wondering if the orders are really even that useful. The CCS seems good, and the Regimental Standard is pretty cool, so I think I'll keep him by the gun lines, but the PCS orders seem pretty lame. Either go to ground and lose shooting, or move up to 6" and lose shooting. The one that allows extra lasgun shots is ok... but it's las-gun shots... At best that might add, what, 1 or 2 extra wounds? I guess they can issue them to they're own squads and I might use that sometimes, but otherwise the PCS orders suck. (Does a unit with a vox-caster get the ability to re-roll it's own orders if they issue them to themselves?)

 

[Intrepid]

1) How much can I really expect a lasgun to do in combat?

Against MEQs, nothing. Against the weaker armies, it's acceptable.

2) When is too much when it comes to Heavy Weapon teams?

My answer is, 'When you run out of orders to give them'. In a 1k game, I would bring two platoons, each with two blobbed-up infantry squads with a Commissar. That and a CCS gives four heavy weapons with an order of your choice, plus two PCS squads you can use as either half-size fire teams or mobile objective-grabbers, all for about 500 points. That leaves space for two Russes and two Sentinels, give or take, which makes a reasonable 1k list of the sort you're looking for.

(Does a unit with a vox-caster get the ability to re-roll it's own orders if they issue them to themselves?)

Yep! Both the officer's squad and the squad receiving the order have a vox.

In a non-mech list, the PCS' Move! Move! order is actually quite useful. Mobility is the main problem with static Guard and a near-guaranteed run at full speed can be useful for those late-game objective grabs or a tactical repositioning when your opponent tries a refused flank maneuver. The Duck! order helps with facing enemy artillery, which unfortunately is a somewhat rare occurrence in the modern age of special weapon spam.

 

[Vazzaroth]

I'll keep those tactics in mind, I like the way they sound. My current list was just updated, and has a few more vehicles than you suggested, Intrepid, but it's far from final, and chances are good I will end up with enough infantry models to field it like that after I get more points.

I wonder if I should drop my vet squad I took as my 2nd troop and get a stripped down 1 PCS and 2 Infantry squads...

About how large would you reccomend I run my combined guard squads? I was thinking 1 at 20 and the rest at 10, but I could get rid of a few things and add some more sheer numbers to my footmen to try to avoid 25% casualtie tests and what not.

 

[Intrepid]

I could get rid of a few things and add some more sheer numbers to my footmen to try to avoid 25% casualty tests and what not.

With Commissars and/or a company standard around, leadership shouldn't be a problem anyway. You might experiment with a squad or two of infantry with no equipment, blobbing or anything. They make excellent speedbumps and, when fielded in front of your heavy armor, increase vehicle survivability significantly. The vet squad can be dropped if needed since the PC squads can do the same duties.

 

[Jdog232]

lasguns are strange things, while they arent all too powerfull wait untill a squad of 20-40 men blasts away in rapid fire range with first rank fire second rank fire, to bring up a historical quote "quantity has a quality of its own" that being said you cant expect much from them BUT enough of them can and will do some damage.

in an all comers list i would honestly not bring mortars for the points you could get much more effective heavy weapons, what i do and have found to be effective is 3-4 20 man guard squads with a lascannon autocannon and a commissar in the unit. the mix of heavy weapons i have found is highly effective it gives the squads some flexibility in that they can be devastating to av 10-12 and still do some damage to av 14 vehicles on occasion. thats just what i do and have found it to be effective.

 

[Marnepup]

1) How much can I really expect a lasgun to do in combat? With Str 3, and ap -, am I right in not expecting much, or do they tend to outperform they're statline expectation? I know IG are about massed fire, but 10 lasguns is still only 20 shots at best, and I've wethered that amount of bolter shots without too much problem as Orks. So my faith in the flashlights is fairly low initially. And because of that:

~sigh~ For the price of ten space marines, you don't get ten guardsmen. You get twenty five. So don't compare weathering 20 boltgun shots to weathering 20 lasgun shots. Compare it to weathering 50(!) lasgun shots. 25 hits, 8.3 wounds. Versus 13.7 hits, smidge under 7 wounds for the marines. And when the greenskins hit back, the guard have 25 models versus 10. Massed guardsmen beat the green tide all to hell.

2) When is too much when it comes to Heavy Weapon teams? My current platoon for a 1K game had 2 heavy weapons squads, one with missile launchers and one with mortars. Most of my other in-squad teams had either missile launchers or autocannons. Would I just be better off getting some more regular infantry squads and combining? And as a side question: Am I right in thinking that the heavy weapon teams are required for the infantry squads since they DON'T say "may"?

No heavy weapons squads. It's too much power with too few wounds, making it a high priority target for the enemy, and one that's easy to kill. You're better off using heavy weapons on vehicles, as well as spamming infantry line squads (10 wounds per weapon!).

I'm trying to get a somewhat sizable Infantry presence, while still being able to field a squad or 2 of Sentinels( Im thinking 2 scouts and 2 Armored), a Hellhound, and 1-3 Leman Russes depending on the game size. Any ordinance batteries would be awesome ( I really like the Griffins) but I know that might be too much armor for less than 2K games.

Basically, it all boils down to: If I want a fairly mixed infantry and tank/artillery, long range army, what ratio should I shoot for between Tanks, Upgraded (IE Weapon teams, vets) Guardsmen, and normal trash, lasgun wielding, objective capping guardsmen?

Sounds like you want too much of everything. Vets are okay, heavy weapons squads are garbage, bog stock cheaptastic line infantry squads are where it's at...provided you take enough of them, and aren't afraid of kill point games. If you care that much about kill points, go with vets. Since you're not interested in chimeras, I'd suggest that you try to get as much as 50% of your points into heavy support, or heavy support plus fast attack. At 1000 points, I'd recommend two stripped down to the basics leman russes and two griffons. By the time you get to 1750, 3 russes, 3 griffons, and 3 of those quad-autocannon tracks (medusa?). Plus some scout sentinels. The special rules make them MUCH better than the armored sentinels, guaranteeing side shots on enemy tanks.

I run my infantry two ways. Either mechanized (9 chimeras) with 6 line squads that each have nothing but an autocannon, or in 2-3 dismounted mobs of 30-50 with 3-5 special weapons each. It's like having conscript platoons with a decent statline (even greenskins fear being charged by 50 IG regulars at once), while the platoon command squads (in either version) function like a poor man's chimelta bomb.