Target Priority and leadership tests

1095 Views 14 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Tragedy316, Feb 5, 2006

Tragedy316

Discussion Starter · Feb 4, 2006

This may have come up in the past, but since it kinda urked me in my last game, I wanted to get a solid answer for it.

If I wanted to shoot at an Infantry squad, but was closer to a vehicle, do I have to make a leadership test to shoot at the infantry instead of the vehicle? My opponent said that because his skimmer was closer to my guys that I would have to make a leadership test to shoot at his farther away infantry. I can understand if this was infantry vs infantry as target priority or vehicle versus vehicle, but why would I have to choose between a skimmer and infantry?

Also since I have your attention (Hehe Im so bad). a few questions about cover. Now I have found in the main rule book this statement. When a firers line of sight crosses over cover so that the target models are partially obscured the model receives the cover save. So I am understanding that if my opponents guys are shooting at my Gaunts behind a pile of sandbags, as long as his line of sight goes over the pile of sandbags, I get the cover save right. Or do I have to be physically touching the cover with models to get it?

One last question: My Hive Tyrant with wings jumped into a ruined building in an attempt to assault his guys already in the building. A): Do I have to make a Dangerous terrain test? It was considered area terrain. B): Does this count as assaulting into cover for inititive purposes now that the Hive Tyrant is actually in the same cover?

Thanks

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I am the Monkey King

· #2 · Feb 4, 2006

I think you do have to take the test, the reasoning being that it takes quite a lot of nerve to shoot at some wee guys when there's a great big tank closer to you than they are (I realise it might not have been a big tank but this is a general statement about targetting issues here)

As far as I understand cover so long as it obscures their line of sight to you, you get the save.

I'm pretty sure your Tyrant would have to make a difficult terrain test, landing in a ruin could be rather hazardous, and I think it would count as assaulting into cover, there's presumably piles of rubble and suchlike that aren't modeled in teh building, same as you don't model all the trees in a wood.

LordCreampuff

· #3 · Feb 4, 2006

Tragedy316 said:
If I wanted to shoot at an Infantry squad, but was closer to a vehicle, do I have to make a leadership test to shoot at the infantry instead of the vehicle? My opponent said that because his skimmer was closer to my guys that I would have to make a leadership test to shoot at his farther away infantry. I can understand if this was infantry vs infantry as target priority or vehicle versus vehicle, but why would I have to choose between a skimmer and infantry?

You can ignore closer infantry to target a large target like a tank without a LD roll but not the other way around. If the tank (or speeder) is the closest you have to roll to shoot anything else.

Tragedy316 said:
Also since I have your attention (Hehe Im so bad). a few questions about cover. Now I have found in the main rule book this statement. When a firers line of sight crosses over cover so that the target models are partially obscured the model receives the cover save. So I am understanding that if my opponents guys are shooting at my Gaunts behind a pile of sandbags, as long as his line of sight goes over the pile of sandbags, I get the cover save right. Or do I have to be physically touching the cover with models to get it?

That is a correct statement. However, I remember reading somewhere that you have to be within 6" for the cover to be effective. So, if you weren't near the sandbags they wouldn't provide cover just because they are in the LOS. This seems logical as sandbags 50 feet away from a model shouldn't provide cover at all. I cannot find the page of FAQ where I read this though.

Tragedy316 said:
One last question: My Hive Tyrant with wings jumped into a ruined building in an attempt to assault his guys already in the building. A): Do I have to make a Dangerous terrain test? It was considered area terrain. B): Does this count as assaulting into cover for inititive purposes now that the Hive Tyrant is actually in the same cover?

Any time your tyrant jumps into dangerous terrain he must make a dangerous terrain test just like normal jump infantry. Yes, it still counts as assaulting into cover for initiative purposes. Remember those flesh hooks...

Lord Malachi

· #4 · Feb 4, 2006

If you move into area terrain during the movement phase then assault a squad there during the assault phase the target unit doesn't get the benefit of cover. The cover benefit only applies if you move into cover during the assault phase. In the example given by Tragedy316 the Hive Tyrant would have to take a dangerous terrain test for flying into area terrain, but would go at initiative when assaulting a unit in that area terrain during the assault phase. If the HT was outside the area terrain at the end of his movement phase and then went on to assault the unit in cover during his assault phase he would go at iniative 1 unless he had flesh hooks or whatever the 'Nid equivelent of frag grenades are.

Laplace

· #5 · Feb 4, 2006

LordCreampuff said:
Any time your tyrant jumps into dangerous terrain he must make a dangerous terrain test just like normal jump infantry. Yes, it still counts as assaulting into cover for initiative purposes. Remember those flesh hooks...

On that note, unless your unit is a skimmer, you MUST land and if in terrain take a difficult terrain test (unless rules state otherwise).

Meaning you can't be "hovering over the trees" so to speak with winged creatures, jump packs, etc.

Tragedy316

Discussion Starter · #6 · Feb 4, 2006

Thanks for the replies. Unfortunatly now it seems we have a bit of conflict about going into the same terrain as the group your are going to assault. Can anyone who replied please give a reference as to where these rules are posted. I checked The 40k Rulebook on target priority and it says nothing in that section about having to make a test to shoot at infantry rather than a closer tank.

The example for the cover is this. My gaunts were behind sandbags, within 6" but not touching. His squad shot at them with assault cannons. The LOS went over the sandbags to get to my gaunts. His comment was since the gaunts were not touching the sandbags, they dont get the cover save. As a result 6 gaunts were killed without saves. Granted it would have been only a 5+ save, but there are two things I look for now while playing nids. A): Taking any save I can get cover or otherwise, and B): Finding anyway possible for my opponent not to shoot at me.

As for the Tyrant, here is the example again. My opponent had a group inside an area terrain crumbled building. At the beginning of the turn, My tyrant with wings moved 12" into the terrain itself behind the squad. He made his dangerous terrain test and passed, but then I was told that since I was assaulting a group in cover, even though I was IN THE SAME COVER as them, they would get to go first. Thankfully I did have flesh hooks on the beast, but if I didnt, they would be hitting before me. I just want to make sure that when the issue arrises again, I can have a counter reason behind these questions.

Again, if at all possible please site where the information you are using comes from within legal limits of this board so I can look at it myself and point it out if necessary when the time comes.

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I am the Monkey King

· #7 · Feb 4, 2006

For target priority read the last sentence on page 19, that "anything" makes it pretty clear you need to take a test.

As for cover, I can't find anything about area tarrain and assaults in the rulebook, but I think it does count as assaulting into cover. Can anyone find a reference in the book? I only gave it quite a cursory look over (trying to do many thingas at once here).

The_Outsider

· #8 · Feb 4, 2006

Target priority, see page 19 in the rulebook, the second diagram deals with large targets.

Your gaunts would have got an cover save as the shot went over cover.

For defination on how cover works when shot at, see page 25 of the rulebook, under "units partially in cover", this should answer your questions.

Hope this helps.

Tragedy316

Discussion Starter · #9 · Feb 4, 2006

Page 19 does not answer the priority question. The question is: If I am closer to a tank than the infantry that I want to shoot at, do I have to test to shoot at the infantry. Page 19 deals with priority for determing if I can shoot at infanty vs infantry or vehicle vs vehicle. Meaning I know that I have to make a test to shoot at a farther away infantry squad if an infantry squad is closer to me, and the same for vehicles.

For example. My squad wants to shoot at an infantry squad, the closest one there. HOWEVER, there is a tank/skimmer that is closer to me than the infantry that i want to shoot at. Do i have to make a LD test not to shoot at the tank?

As far as the cover thing goes, I think I may have answered my own question. If a model gets a cover save, for whatever reason, then it counts as assaulting into cover if you assault them. However, lets say a group of warriors is hiding behind a sandbag pile. If I assault them from the front, they get their cover saves and therefore get the assaulting into cover rule. If some how I get BEHIND them, by jumping over them with wings, then assault them, since I dont have to go through cover to get to them and they DONT get their cover saves normally, it wouldnt count as assaulting into cover.

I guess the only question still unanswered is the tank vs infantry priority one

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The_Outsider

· #10 · Feb 4, 2006

Read page 19 carefully, as tanks are treated as large targets, infantry can be ignored if you wish to shoot at the closest tank.

Shooting at further away vehicles (when another one is closer) requires a LD test.

Hope this helps.

Tragedy316

Discussion Starter · #11 · Feb 4, 2006

Outsider, I know what you are trying to say, but I DO NOT want to shoot the tank. I WANT to shoot the infantry. Page 19 says declare if I want to shoot at infantry or large targets. I WANT to shoot the infantry. Does that mean I ignore all non infantry things for target priority reasons? Let me see if I can sum up range this way. ME---->Tank---->Infantry. Closest to farthest. Do I have to make a test for the tank, even though I DONT WANT to shoot at it, just so I CAN shoot the infantry farther away, or can i just ignore the tank altogether because Im not shooting at vehicles or large targets.

The_Outsider

· #12 · Feb 4, 2006

Sorry, I would say no, I wouldn't think that it works in reverse. You would have to make a LD test.

This is what I think at least, sorry for the misunderstanding, I must have not read it correctly. D'oh!

Ostsol

· #13 · Feb 4, 2006

You can ignore small targets to shoot at large targets, but not the other way around.

Regarding cover, technically any intervening terrain, regardless of how far it is from the target can count as cover. The "within 6 inches" bit isn't in the rulebook, but I agree that it makes sense. Idealy, cover should be anything that visually obscures the target from the shooter's sights, but it can be difficult to determine with 3 cm models in the middle of a six foot table. . .

Lleu

· #14 · Feb 4, 2006

Lets have a look at the target priority rules:

1. The standard rules for target priority say you must pass a leadership test to shoot at anything other than the closest target. (Page 19)

2. Alternately, you may ignore small targets (infantry) in favour of large targets (monstrous creatures and vehicles), again having to pass a leadership test to shoot at anything beyond the closest large target. (Page 19)

3. Large units themselves automatically pass the leadership test so may shoot at any available target. (Pages 55 and 64)

You are firing with an infantry unit so neither rule 2 nor rule 3 apply and you must fall back on rule 1. So the answer is: you must pass a leadership test to shoot past the skimmer at the infantry unit.

Tragedy316

Discussion Starter · #15 · Feb 5, 2006

Hmm, that does sum it up rather nicely. Thank you all for your patience and explanations. The cover thing I will have to bring up with my friend the next time we play as the board we play on is litered with cover. So whats the point of having so much cover if it cant be used right?

Thanks again

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