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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Rules query - My opponent has a group of harlequins prancing around the front of a falcon, approx 18" away from my hellhound. I place the template to hit swatting the entire lot, and the falcon. My opponent says "who am i targeting?" and i said the harlequins - so i can also give them the heavy bolter.
They have the night vision special rules equipment - I roll 14" vision, and cannot target them. I have to choose another target, the only targets within sight are the harlequins, the falcon by them and another falcon - Which on closer inspection i can clip if i place the template touching both falcons - result! however, it also touches 4x harlequins, and my opponent states i can't do that, as i cannot target the harlequins. - for all intents and purposes they do not exist to my hellhound. He can place it so it is further up the tank - 3" further away from the hellhound and still clip both - but it is not the closest and is borderline edge of range.

To resolve the dispute we went for just the tanks, but what should happen?

P.S. we'd both fluffed rules at that point - I said when you charge you have to come into b/base with as many as possible - that was wrong, and you can't tank shock with falcons - they're tanks and you can I admit.
He'd said grenades are one use only - which i disagree with and that settled in my favour.
We also disagree with charging out of cover going to init 10 - I said if you're charging through, thus rolling dice for movement it's like going throug hcover, even if the defender is in open ground. Admittedly it doesn't make for too much sense, but that's how it reads. He disagrees.
P.P.S. If you were wondering i love nicking falcons with hellhounds (75% hit, 1 in 6 chance glancing - that's better than a LC's odds of doing something) and had been doing so all game.
 

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What is under the template gets hit by the template. You might be targeting one unit, but if your flamer reaches the unit behind them they burn too, soo the harleys burn.
 

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I agree with Slares, the Hellhound cannot see the harlequins because of the veil of tears (or whatever its called) but they are still there, so the hellhound may be targetting the falcon but if they come within the template they will still get hit.
 

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To resolve the dispute we went for just the tanks, but what should happen?

P.P.S. If you were wondering i love nicking falcons with hellhounds (75% hit, 1 in 6 chance glancing - that's better than a LC's odds of doing something) and had been doing so all game.

Poor luck on the Harleys, shouldn't walk/dance/prance between to targets, if you can legitimately say that you are aiming at a near by target, and the Harleys are in the way. tough on them. If you do it intentionally, to break spirit of the rules, well you are a poor gamer and should re-consider the hobby.

Yeah, burning fire against light tanks fo
r the win.
 

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I roll 14" vision, and cannot target them. I have to choose another target, the only targets within sight are the harlequins, the falcon by them and another falcon
I'm not sure here. Is it a special rule (or one that I missed out) for your tank? About the vision roll, if you cannot reach the unit you were shooting at, you cannot shoot that turn anymore (granted that normal barrage and ordinance weapon may still shout but with an extra D? scatter roll). It is said about the Veil of Tears that the the Harlies can always be ignored for "target priority" process, not that you can change your mind after missing the vision roll.

Again, I might be mistaken by a special rule that I ignore.

Also, like said before, whatever is under the template REALLY IS under the template. Damage there.

About the cover thing, I'm not sure what you mean, but the Initiative bonus is granted IF your unit is CHARGED AT while in cover already, not if a unit in cover charges OUT of it, or STAYS in it for all matters (ex: assaulting another unit in the same cover as yours, same forest, ruin, etc)...

Grenades are omnipresents: they take effect when you charge. Not only once per game.

Skimmer Tanks can Tank Shock, why wouldn't they?

Cheers.
 

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Rules query - My opponent has a group of harlequins prancing around the front of a falcon, approx 18" away from my hellhound. I place the template to hit swatting the entire lot, and the falcon. My opponent says "who am i targeting?" and i said the harlequins - so i can also give them the heavy bolter.
They have the night vision special rules equipment - I roll 14" vision, and cannot target them. I have to choose another target, the only targets within sight are the harlequins, the falcon by them and another falcon - Which on closer inspection i can clip if i place the template touching both falcons - result! however, it also touches 4x harlequins, and my opponent states i can't do that, as i cannot target the harlequins. - for all intents and purposes they do not exist to my hellhound. He can place it so it is further up the tank - 3" further away from the hellhound and still clip both - but it is not the closest and is borderline edge of range.

To resolve the dispute we went for just the tanks, but what should happen?
Night vision rules don't help against the Veil of Tears. It's not Night Fight, it's its own special power. If you chose to shoot at the harlequins with the HB & inferno cannon and failed to see them using the 2d6x2 sight range, you cannot fire now. You cannot choose to instead shoot at anything else - the Veil of Tears rule specifically forbids it.

As to the second part, if you did in fact choose to shoot a falcon instead of the harlequins, you can place that inferno cannon wherever you want as long as it is in range of your hellhound and it touches your original target. Now template weapons must be placed getting the maximum number of models in your original target - but since your target is a unit of one model (falcon), you can place it to hit lots of harlequins if they were nearby. This is totally within the rules.





P.S. we'd both fluffed rules at that point - I said when you charge you have to come into b/base with as many as possible - that was wrong, and you can't tank shock with falcons - they're tanks and you can I admit.
There are very explicit rules for charging that are quite clear. You must go closest model to closest model in the most direct route available, and then try to touch other unengaged models when possible, maintaining coherency, and so on... They are very strict, I'd advise both reading that section just as a refresher next game.

And falcons are tanks. Tanks can tank shock. Nothing prevents Skimmers from tank shocking (in fact, the BGB clearly states they can if they are tanks). The eldar codex doesn't state falcons cannot tank shock. So.... Falcons can tank shock.



He'd said grenades are one use only - which i disagree with and that settled in my favour.
Uh, where does it say they are one use only? In any case, you were right - they are not one use.



We also disagree with charging out of cover going to init 10 - I said if you're charging through, thus rolling dice for movement it's like going throug hcover, even if the defender is in open ground. Admittedly it doesn't make for too much sense, but that's how it reads. He disagrees.
The wording is poor, and it becomes a grammar argument. I've seen this before, and while I don't have my BGB on me, I remember the key points, and they come from different paragraphs in the assaulting through cover section.
- One states that defenders only occupy cover from certain angles, or if they are in terrain completely kinda deal.
- The next states that if the attacks have to move through "the" terrain, defenders get the bonus.

So does the phrase "the" terrain apply to that which the defender can be considered to occupy? If so, then the simple act of charging through (or more like out of) cover doesn't automatically grant the defender the bonus. I've seen it played both ways in tournaments.



P.P.S. If you were wondering i love nicking falcons with hellhounds (75% hit, 1 in 6 chance glancing - that's better than a LC's odds of doing something) and had been doing so all game.
Definitely have a shot at it with the inferno cannon, but not exactly better than a las cannon, truly.
3/4 hit * 1/6 glance = 3/24 glance... or 1/8.
Las cannon, in the hands of a guardsman
1/2 hit * 2/3 glance = 2/6 glance... or 1/3.

The benefit is just being able to hit multiple things with the inferno cannon while aiming at the falcon.
 

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Your questions have been addressed pretty well, so far, but there's one important thing that's been left out.

If you target a vehicle with a template weapon (i.e. the Inferno Cannon) you must position the template so that it covers as much of the vehicle as possible. 'clipping' the vehicle isn't sufficient.

You should not have been allowed to place the template so that it barely knicks its target and happens to cover another falcon and four Harlequins. You would have had to try to cover as much of the target Falcon as possible
 

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If you target a vehicle with a template weapon (i.e. the Inferno Cannon) you must position the template so that it covers as much of the vehicle as possible. 'clipping' the vehicle isn't sufficient.
Sorry, at work and can't check atm, but does it not state that you must hit as many models in the target unit as possible as the only restriction on template weapons? If so, then clipping is fine as hitting as many as possible != covering as much as possible.
 

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resident iconoclast
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Well, it's certainly true that hitting as many models as possible does not equal covering as much of the vehicle as possible.

That being said, I believe that the rules for Template weapons specifically state that, when targeting a vehicle, the template must be placed so as to cover as much of the vehicle as possible. This came up in a game for me, a while back, and I'm pretty sure that was the answer.

We'll both have to check when we get home from work, though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Definitely have a shot at it with the inferno cannon, but not exactly better than a las cannon, truly.
3/4 hit * 1/6 glance = 3/24 glance... or 1/8.
Las cannon, in the hands of a guardsman
1/2 hit * 2/3 glance = 2/6 glance... or 1/3.

The benefit is just being able to hit multiple things with the inferno cannon while aiming at the falcon.[/quote]

Or if it's moved more than 12" you only hit on a 1/6 - He was moving 36" across the board, next turn unloading then moving off 36" - if they disembark before moving they can charge etc - that's right as far as i know. Then jumping back in and zipping off with a "chain of falcons - they kept doing this as i kept stunning them (but had the stones). you're also downgraded to glancing so the higher STR means zip
 

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resident iconoclast
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Uh...what?

I think you're way off.

First, as I asserted earlier, I'm pretty sure that placing the Template so as to catch two Falcons is usually going to be illegal.

Second, no matter how fast a vehicle moves, a guard-carried lascannon will hit on 4+. There is no rule which states that if it's moved over 12" you can only hit on 6+.

Third, the fact that penetrating hits against Falcons are usually downgraded to glancing hits does not mean that higher strength 'means zip.' Higher strength weapons are still more likely to get that glancing hit than lower strength weapons.

Finally, and I can't really understand all of your writing, but you do know that a unit can't both disembark from a vehicle and embark onto a vehicle (in any order, regardless of the number of vehicles involved) in the same turn, right?

Similarly, you can't use a consolidation or massacre move to embark onto a vehicle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Definitely have a shot at it with the inferno cannon, but not exactly better than a las cannon, truly.
3/4 hit * 1/6 glance = 3/24 glance... or 1/8.
Las cannon, in the hands of a guardsman
1/2 hit * 2/3 glance = 2/6 glance... or 1/3.

The benefit is just being able to hit multiple things with the inferno cannon while aiming at the falcon.

Or if it's moved more than 12" you only hit on a 1/6 - He was moving 36" across the board, next turn unloading then moving off 36" - if they disembark before moving they can charge etc - that's right as far as i know. Then jumping back in and zipping off with a "chain of falcons - they kept doing this as i kept stunning them (but had the stones). you're also downgraded to glancing so the higher STR means zip - i should have been clearer.

Your questions have been addressed pretty well, so far, but there's one important thing that's been left out.

If you target a vehicle with a template weapon (i.e. the Inferno Cannon) you must position the template so that it covers as much of the vehicle as possible. 'clipping' the vehicle isn't sufficient.

You should not have been allowed to place the template so that it barely knicks its target and happens to cover another falcon and four Harlequins. You would have had to try to cover as much of the target Falcon as possible


I Did not know about covering as much as you can - If i had placed the template bang in the middle lengthways down the craft i would have been out of range - as half of the cockpit to the engines were out of range. Would I be forced to do this and miss (As i'd then go out of range to do so) if I chose the falcon as the target?

Night vision rules don't help against the Veil of Tears. It's not Night Fight, it's its own special power. If you chose to shoot at the harlequins with the HB & inferno cannon and failed to see them using the 2d6x2 sight range, you cannot fire now. You cannot choose to instead shoot at anything else - the Veil of Tears rule specifically forbids it.

Reading the text box about veil of tears last night we read it to be that i just can't target them - like failing target priority. You learn something new every day!
(In my defense I don't have the codex and was playing to practice against mean army lists.)
 

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I think there is some confusion as to the rules about hitting vehicles in assault vs. shooting at vehicles. When assaulting vehicles, the amount they moved (or whether or not it's a skimmer) determines what you need to hit. When shooting at vehicles, you only ever use your ballistic skill to determine if you hit or not. So a guardsman with a las cannon will hit that falcon half the times regardless of its movement rate.

Also note that the Star Engines upgrade that Falcons can get (to allow them to move up to 36") states that no models can embark / disembark when using them. So he can't disembark and move the harlequins and then zoom 36" away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Uh...what?

I think you're way off.

First, as I asserted earlier, I'm pretty sure that placing the Template so as to catch two Falcons is usually going to be illegal.

Second, no matter how fast a vehicle moves, a guard-carried lascannon will hit on 4+. There is no rule which states that if it's moved over 12" you can only hit on 6+.

Third, the fact that penetrating hits against Falcons are usually downgraded to glancing hits does not mean that higher strength 'means zip.' Higher strength weapons are still more likely to get that glancing hit than lower strength weapons.

Finally, and I can't really understand all of your writing, but you do know that a unit can't both disembark from a vehicle and embark onto a vehicle (in any order, regardless of the number of vehicles involved) in the same turn, right?

Similarly, you can't use a consolidation or massacre move to embark onto a vehicle.
! I must be way off ! I've always been told that vehicles moving over 12 can only be hit on a 6 and never thought to look it up.
- p.s. yep, no embark/dis on same turn but I wasn't very clear there.
 

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resident iconoclast
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I Did not know about covering as much as you can - If i had placed the template bang in the middle lengthways down the craft i would have been out of range - as half of the cockpit to the engines were out of range. Would I be forced to do this and miss (As i'd then go out of range to do so) if I chose the falcon as the target?
Well, and I may be remembering wrong. The important thing is to make sure you're familiar with all the template weapon rules.

As far as I know, though, the rule requires that you cover as much of the vehicle as possible within the limits of the template. This rule won't modify the range of the weapon or cause the weapon to miss. You will position the template so that it covers as much of the model as possible and stays within the weapon's maximum range.


Also, there is a rule which states that vehicles (without Weapon Skill attributes) which move more than 6" are hit on 6s by close combat attacks in the following turn. This doesn't apply to shooting attacks.

Anyway, hope that helps. You should look through the template weapon rules yourself, sometime, and verify whether I'm right about that bit or not. Certainly, it changes the efficacy of the Inferno Cannon by a lot.
 

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Left is absolutely correct about the template weapon.

The narrow end of the template is placed at a certain point - usually a model's base, but in this case the point chosed by the Hellhound - and depending on the target must cover as many enemy models or as much of the vehicle as possible from that point.
 

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Yep, I just got home and checked the BGB - it's as many models or as much of the vehicle. So I was mistaken about the placement of the template, you would not be able to get the harlequins with it. My recollection was in a game when someone shot my Carnifex and placed it to hit stealers behind him, doh!

And I also verified the VoT power: you indeed lose the ability to shoot if you fail your spotting roll. The rule states you can ignore them for Target Priority purposes if you so choose, but that if you try to see them & fail, it's tough luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Yep, I just got home and checked the BGB - it's as many models or as much of the vehicle. So I was mistaken about the placement of the template, you would not be able to get the harlequins with it. My recollection was in a game when someone shot my Carnifex and placed it to hit stealers behind him, doh!

And I also verified the VoT power: you indeed lose the ability to shoot if you fail your spotting roll. The rule states you can ignore them for Target Priority purposes if you so choose, but that if you try to see them & fail, it's tough luck.
Just to wrap things up - thankyou everyone, all very helpful:

Targeting the harlequins - (We didn't read the next paragraph of the VOT text box)
On shooting at flyers/skimmers - That is a vital revalation - i think we were looking at Flyers F/W rules and just took it over to skimmers over 12" - I am a prat.

On the Placement of template - I:
1) I should have lost my shots in the first place.
2) Have to cover as much as possible of my intended target, however I'm going to trot home and read the hellhounds "what's hit under the template" very carefully to see if it says anything unique about placement - I do remember if any part of the template after placing it is out of range, it doesn't work.
- My reservation with that is if the center of a target is 24" away, e.g. falcon but the front 4-5 inches is within range, am i forced to put my template bang in the middle lengthways - so for example the thin point is on the front prongs and the "bulb" is over the canopy - so then it'd then miss as it's out of range, even though part of it is 20" (approx) away? same with hammerhead. will re-post with a new thread tomorrow if i have any further queries - it'd be disappointing if that's the case.
 

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Its says you have to try and cover it as much as possible if the very corner of the tank is all you can hit with the template then that is as much as possible
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Its says you have to try and cover it as much as possible if the very corner of the tank is all you can hit with the template then that is as much as possible
But I have to place the template, then measure - in that order. at which point does legal placement including prudence become argueable?
Ignoring hitting other, nearby things - at what point can my opponent tell me where to place the template? What happens if it's then out of range?
 
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