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Ancient Lurker
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I have been collecting Dark angels for a long time, and have enjoyed many awsome games with them. However, recently, I heard a different version of their history during the great heresy. Although radically different to the established "truth," the alternative is plausible. Traditionally it is believed that the Lion was betrayed by his brother Luther. Luther and the substantial Caliban garrison had become jealous at the Lion and the rest of the chapter's growing fame. So, when the Lion returened to Caliban Luther ordered his marines to attack. You know the rest....

However, the alternative story I heard was: The Dark Angels lay relativly low during the heresy. Waiting in the shadows (much as their primarch had done in his early years to avoid Chaos spawned jungle beasts) until a victor emerged. However, when they returend to Caliban it was Luther who thought that the primarch had turned to Chaos, and so onpened fire in an attempt to destroy him.
This theory is a liitle strange, as It doeset explain why the fallen angels would turn to Chaos because of it. So I ask you, do you think this is more likely, or the lies of Chaos heh heh :)

Apologies if this has been covered before.
 

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Well its not that unbeleivable that the fallen would turn to chaos in the alternate story I mean how would you feel if the entire empire the thing that you had tried to defend by making the hardest decision of your life by attacking your perverbrial "father" turned on you. You would be desperate for any kind of guidance and plus youd be pretty bitter about the whole thing.
 

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I personally favour the second version of the betrayal, as first described in the Black Library novel ’Angels of Darkness’ by Gav Thorpe and later seemingly supported by the new Sabertooth fluff. I think it adds an interesting dimension to the Dark Angels’ background story, not to mention a plot-twist of some proportions if it turns out to be true that the loyalist are the (unknowing) descendents of the actual traitors and the Fallen originally the true loyalists.

It’s true that the only account we have of this version is from one of the Fallen, but taking into consideration that he was not turned to Chaos but still faithful to the Emperor, just not to his apparently traitorous Primarch, and that he actually managed to convince the Interrogator-Chaplain questioning him that he was telling the truth, the story is not entirely implausible. Also, the new Sabertooth fluff reveals that Lion El’Jonson was the only Primarch who didn’t respond to Rogal Dorn’s call for help when Terra was besieged by Horus.

The fact is that, as far as I know, of all the loyalist Legions only the Dark Angels and their Primarch never fought the traitors during the Heresy, a fact that seems rather suspicious to me, although if you ask any Dark Angel fanatic they will of course deny that anything unseemly should have kept Lion El’Jonson away until well after the fighting had stopped. ;)

As for supposedly loyalist Fallen turning to Chaos, you must remember that they were swallowed up by the warp and spent a long time in the Immaterium where Chaos might have affected them; in the novel ‘Eye of Terror’ a true loyalist Dark Angel supportive of Lion El’Jonson is also lost in the warp during the Horus Heresy and ends up in the Eye of Terror where he finds it difficult to keep his faith in the Emperor and his Primarch when faced with the true might of Chaos. If a loyalist can be turned to Chaos, then so can a Fallen, even if he was originally a loyalist.

~Grephaun.
 

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As a Dark Angels player though, I myself feel Angels of Darkness is really there to add some level of ambiguity to the Dark Angel's actions. I don't view it as a serious "determination" of the Dark Angel's fluff i.e. meant to be taken as gospel.

I myself prefer to view the second option as the least likely, there's certain things that just don't make sense. E.g.

The Dark Angels were on crusade with the Space Wolves at the time of the heresy. If they had been deliberately stalling it would have been immediately obvious to the Space Wolves.

In the description of the attack on the Fortress-Monastery on Caliban, there is reference to the defacing of images of the Emperor, replaced under oratory by Luthor by images of Chaos.

The reason that Luthor was able to stand up to assault by a Primarch was that he was swelled by the power of Chaos.

When Luthor refused to kill the Lion, "the powers of Chaos were cheated by their pawn and so unleashed a Warp Storm to finish his actions".

When the Dark Angels captured Luthor at the heart of the Rock he was rambling apology for his actions, and how he was no longer possessed.

And so on and so forth, that's not even mentioning that the the source was a fallen, who could have been merely deceived as to Luthor's motivation. For the later explaination to be considered, it conflicts with a lot of accounts in the fluff. I consider it as something thrown in to make the Dark Angels more controversial, but it would require a lot of expansion to be taken as a semi-serious account.
 

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I Endure
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I feel that this interpretation of the Dark Angels is probably more interesting than the usually accepted version. I am not that well-versed in the Dark Angel's fluff, but I will have a go at justifying the account, using Addoran's post, if he doesn't mind.

The Dark Angels were on crusade with the Space Wolves at the time of the heresy. If they had been deliberately stalling it would have been immediately obvious to the Space Wolves.
Any deliberate stalling could easily have been hidden by the disagreements between Russ and Johnson, especially by a person as shrewd as Johnson.

The reason that Luthor was able to stand up to assault by a Primarch was that he was swelled by the power of Chaos.
History is written by the victor, and this could be an attempt by Johnson's forces to hide what they did. Luthor could have temporarily been emowered by the Emperor.

When Luthor refused to kill the Lion, "the powers of Chaos were cheated by their pawn and so unleashed a Warp Storm to finish his actions".
This could have been an act of desperation on the part of the Gods, seeing that Johnson might lose, or be swayed by Luthors compassion (I forget how the end of the duel played out, so this is probably wrong).

When the Dark Angels captured Luthor at the heart of the Rock he was rambling apology for his actions, and how he was no longer possessed.
Perhaps he was sorry for attacking his Primarch, a man he would still feel loyalty towards. He could have meant he was no longer possessed by the Emperor, so no longer had the strength or vindication to keep his sanity in the face of his actions against his Primarch.

That is my twisted, and no doubt broken interpretation of the events. Feel free to criticise as you see fit.
 

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The Uncivil Servent
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I think that you have made a mistake there Adarron The space wolves went to prospero to destroy the thousand sons and then chased them into the eye of terror, it was on the way back to terra that they met up with the Dark Angels this leaves a whole swathe of time where there are no accounts for the dark angels actions. As such it could be interpretted that El'johnson sat about doing nothing.
 

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Turning to Addorans reference of how Luthor claimed he was no longer possessed, remember that its not hard for marines to believe that the gifts of chaos to be blessing of the emperor. The soul drinkers learned hat better than anyone...8)

When you look at what Astelin explained, what would decieving one chaplain amidst an order of them accomplish? IMHO, its the fact that Astelin had no reason to lie about what happened that makes it more believable.
 

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Mikhail The Heretic said:
I think that you have made a mistake there Adarron The space wolves went to prospero to destroy the thousand sons and then chased them into the eye of terror,.
Nope, at the time of the Siege of Terra, the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels were on crusade together. When news of the Siege reached them, the two chapters returned post-haste to tip the balance.
 

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Son of LO
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Addoran said:
Nope, at the time of the Siege of Terra, the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels were on crusade together. When news of the Siege reached them, the two chapters returned post-haste to tip the balance.
I believe you're both right..

Prospero was before the Heresy itself.. The 13th company did go tearing off into the eye of terror, it's true, but the rest of the space wolves didn't keep chasing the thousand sons. They gave up when it became apparent that the sons had fled into places they couldn't go, and went back to their normal duties, leaving the 13th company as lost.
 

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If you read the Horus Herasy books which are now the more modern up to date source of offical fluff it never once mentions the Dark Angels or space wolves being near each other.
 

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Dilandau said:
If you read the Horus Herasy books which are now the more modern up to date source of offical fluff it never once mentions the Dark Angels or space wolves being near each other.
Yet it doesn't yet reach the point where the Emperor and Horus face off on the barge. The series is still imcomplete. It is quite possible that once the 13th Company is left for lost, they join up with the Dark Angels to become a united front and allow the fermentation of the rivalry between the Angels and Wolves to take place. I can easily see the HH series growing to five+ volumes
 

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I Endure
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It is quite possible that once the 13th Company is left for lost, they join up with the Dark Angels to become a united front and allow the fermentation of the rivalry between the Angels and Wolves to take place.
As I said in another thread, I do not consider the HH books to be the official version, but yes, the feud developed between the legions during their mutual crusade.
 

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Grand Master Belial said:
Yet it doesn't yet reach the point where the Emperor and Horus face off on the barge. The series is still imcomplete. It is quite possible that once the 13th Company is left for lost, they join up with the Dark Angels to become a united front and allow the fermentation of the rivalry between the Angels and Wolves to take place. I can easily see the HH series growing to five+ volumes
Unfortunately, it won't. The Horus Heresy series by Sabertooth will never reach beyond the four books already written. Black Library will instead be publishing their own series of novels about the Horus Heresy, starting with 'Horus Rising' by Dan Abnett that will be released in April. And unfortunately, even if the series was intended to be continued beyond the beginning of the Siege of Terra it would be impossible, since the storyline of the series has tripped itself up along the way.

Sabertooth added to the original fluff a new twist, namely the Imperial Webway that the Emperor was allegedly building inside the Imperial Palace, and which Magnus the Red unintentionally opened up into the warp when he tried to warn the Emperor about Horus' betrayal. This is supposedly what caused the Emperor to send Russ and his Legion to Prospero to punish Magnus, and this is also why the Emperor is confined to the Golden Throne; only by focusing His powers through the warpgate that the Golden Throne really is can He keep it closed. If He ever leaves the Golden Throne the gate will open and daemons pour out directly into the centre of the Imperial Palace. This means that the Emperor was already bound to the Golden Throne before the Siege of Terra, and that He can therefore not leave to face Horus on his battle barge, which pretty much is the defining moment of the Heresy. This paradox means that the Sabertooth storyline can't be continued, and its fluff in certain aspects must be considered unreliable at best.

However, Dilandau is correct that the Sabertooth fluff places the Space Wolves away from the Dark Angels; the Space Wolves were on Prospero at the beginning of the Heresy when they were contacted by Rogal Dorn on Terra and informed of Horus’ rebellion. Russ contacted Jaghatai Khan and his White Scars that were stationed in a nearby system and together they headed for Terra only to be intercepted by Alpharius. Russ stayed to fight the traitor fleet while Khan was ordered to continue for Terra by Dorn. Neither Russ nor Dorn heard anything from Lion El’Jonson, and he is apparently the only Primarch who stays clear of the entire Heresy. Make of that what you will; it is Sabertooth fluff, but seems solid enough in spite of this.

~Grephaun.
 

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On another note, about Luther, he was possessed by chaos. In the actual stats presented by GW he pretty much has everything in the chaos daemonic gifts with the word daemon in it. Not to long ago GW published stats for a few of the Primarchs and also for Luther. They made stuff so that if people wanted to run the massacre on Istivvan 5, or the battle on Calaban they could. So yeah Luther was defiantly chaos. As far as the whole fallen being not so bad guys goes, well id like to think that too they are defiantly up in the air, not all bad, but not all good either. Angels of Darkness presented us with a different perspective on the fallen through the eyes of Astelian (i think that’s how u spell his name) he even got a chaplain the second guess himself which certainly takes a lot and says a great deal of his story. If anyone cares to look, in white dwarf 281 (the issue with Cypher’s 3rd edition stats in it) it has a story that is a sort of aftermath of the events in angels of darkness. Also it connects Cypher to the title of Voice of the Emperor. That cult which i often makes me wonder are the fallen really bad guys or are they sticking to the old ideals of the imperium, in an age and time where the emperor is revered as a god when back in the day that was what he wanted the least.
 

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Either way the Fallen are exiled Dark Angels and no one is going to listen to them long enough to figure out the truth. Face it, GW makes these kinds of paradoxes so that we will continue to buy stuff from them and make a profit. Sabertooth fluff however I think is complete nonsense. It just doesn't fit at all with the GW fluff they've released.
 

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Is the reason why Lion El' Johnson stays away from Terra becasue half of his chapter has truned against him, therefore he cannot get to Terra becasue he is fighting his traitorous brethren?
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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Is the reason why Lion El' Johnson stays away from Terra becasue half of his chapter has truned against him, therefore he cannot get to Terra becasue he is fighting his traitorous brethren?
That was post heresy.


Keep in mind people that if Jonson was traitor then Horus probably would have known about it, even if Jonson had wanted to conceal it. Horus was kept well informed by the powers of chaos and one of his own brothers turning to chaos without him knowing is vey implausible.

Whats my point you ask? Horus obviously believed Jonson was loyalist as jonson and russ were the reasons he felt he had to gamble on lowering his shields. He thought they were both coming to kick his ass, and with the siege already tight he felt he'd lose if the loyalists had the extra support. However if he knew Jonson was traitor then he probably would never have gambled, as he would have seen jonson as support for his own forces. Sure the loyalist space wolves were coming too...but the space wolves were a battle weary and depleted force, wheras the DA were fresh and fully manned.

So in conclusion i'm just saying its nigh impossible for jonson to be a traitor as the entire course of the last hours of the heresy speak otherwise.



I also realize Sabertooth may have information that is counter to this but Sabertooth has kind of a different view of things than GW does. Their information, whilst entertaining, shouldn't be considered credible.
 

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I feel I should point out that the writers that wrote the Background for the Horus Herasy books are the same ones who do writing for gamesworkshop. Also the Horus herasy is accepted as offical fluff as far as games workshop is concerned so like it or not it is the offical background.
 
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