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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am worried about the direction GW is going towards with their new codices. Each new codex coming out seems to be more and more overpowering. Guards become one of the strongest armies after they came out. Then Space Wolves became one of the strongest (and arguably cheesiest) armies after they came out. The only codex to buck the trend is the new Tyranids. It's a good codex with lots of good units. It's competitive but not as overpowering as some of the other new codices.

And then we have this - the new Blood Angels. I've taken a sneak peek and I've gotta say...there's just too much Velveeta in there. They will, without a doubt, be possibly the most powerful marine chapter and arguably maybe even the most powerful army when they come out.


Here's why:

A Sanguinary High Priest has a special wargear that gives every unit within 12" Prefered Enemy.

Veteran assault squads may take Chapter Banners and may assault after deepstriking if equipped with jump packs.

They have a new transport - the Storm Harbinger. It's a fast skimmer with F13 armor that transports 16. Jump infantry can assault from it even on the turn that it deepstrikes! It can also take a gun that's Heavy 8 rending, pinning and twin-linked!

Their librarians have a psychic power similar to Jaws of the World Wolf. Instead of a line, they get to place a large blast anywhere within 12". This blast blocks LOS and anything it touches is removed from play!

They can take a Librarian Furioso Dreadnought! That's a close-combat Ironclad dread with psychic powers!

Dante and Mephiston are now both Eternal Warriors.

Mephiston has this power that lets him and his unit either fleet or move as cavalry.

There's this one character that gives the entire army Fleet, Furious Charge and Rage. Move over Shrike, Vulkan and Ragnar. This guy's the bomb.



I can just see the $$$ coming in. GW's going to be selling a lot of Blood Angels.


Woohoo....2500 posts.
 

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That Which Has No Time
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If that's true I am very sad. Landspeeders are my thing. I want that transport! We've been waiting for it all along. The storm can't transport models in power armor, can only transport five, can not be taken in squadrons and is not a dedicated transport - therefore it's rather worthless. But that Storm Harbringer sounds fantastic! I need it for my army. And now stupid Blood Angels get it... argh. (And AV13 is just stupid, AV12 would have been fair enough for me.)

As for the rest: sounds very potent indeed! I am curious about the points. Maybe Blood Angels will only have minimum legal army at 1,000 points. :silly:
 

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I see what you mean but GW seem to be sticking more to the 'fluff' of the armies now, but remember people jump on 'the new codex' bandwagon a lot to get hold of the new rules. That still does not mean that the army will be overpowered, it may seem so on paper but it is how you make the army list that puts the people who consider the lists 'broken' on edge and to say about the new nids. Well they have a wide range of units to use but i dare you to try to use the new codex against a nid army that has 40 or more genestealers that all can outflank(not including the monsters) it will be very hard to shrugg them off as you will be dead before you can launch a counter attack.

Anyway blood angles deserve some of their new rules they will probably have some pitfalls that some people will exploit, but remember points cost tend to go sky high if you are not careful. Finally IF GW redo necrons people will say exactly the same thing they always do, in my opinion just play against them to form your opinion before slaging them off.
 

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(Un)Official LO Map Maker
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I agree that each new codex release is (in some way) more powerful and overpowering to the ones preceeding it. GW is having financial problems of late (to my understanding) and they're obviously just making each new army more powerful than the last to get more money flowing through. While I appreciate this, I hate how everyone just blows all their money so that they're have an advantage over other players, every heard of fluff? Playing for fun? I play Sisters and I lose against Mawlocs and other new units because they've been built for a more modern game than the Sisters from 2003. This is why I prefer fantasy, the rules make more sense (to me anyway, like shooting at long range, why does 40k not have that???) and troops aren't expected to have 444414148 as their stats, try 333313137. Why does it have to be a battle of extremes, in both stats and new releases (all units in 12" have preferred enemy?!?! That's called overkill people!)

Sorry for the rant...
 

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The Future
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Their librarians have a psychic power similar to Jaws of the World Wolf. Instead of a line, they get to place a large blast anywhere within 12". This blast blocks LOS and anything it touches is removed from play!
Hmm, I was under the impression from rumour that the LOS blocker was a small blast marker, and it's the marker that disappears if anything touches it...

Maybe they were trying to make up for that accursed pamplet, and overshot the mark. Still, I'm looking forward to April :)
 

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Its simple; to make all th armies balanced they're going to make them all broken. Once this is done none of them will seem overpowered.

Seriously though, some of those do seem very evil, hopefully they'll point them right otherwise I foresee everything turning red.
 

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Its simple; to make all th armies balanced they're going to make them all broken. Once this is done none of them will seem overpowered.

Seriously though, some of those do seem very evil, hopefully they'll point them right otherwise I foresee everything turning red.

Hmmm first, we dont have the codex yet and all of what you've said has been posted on Bell of Lost Souls. so at this point thats all rumors and probably still subject to more playtesting (until march or so).

Second of all, every army they have updated has been a strong update making them all competitive. So over the next 2 or 3 years when all the armies get updated they'll all be pretty strong and be balanced to each other. This happens everytime with new rules update and when they go through all the codexes to update them.

The sky is not falling, we'll be fine...
 

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The Biker Marine
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I have been tempted to build a small, 1K ELITE list full of expensive models, but I would really have to sell one of my current armies to do it... not going to happen! Every time there is a new Dex on the horizon people have the same reaction, want - let's all just stay calm till the book is finally here ;) I felt like I died a bit on the inside, when SWs got bikes with two attacks a piece BASE, but I tuffed it out. If I will see BA get some fast and good CC units I will just probably cry a bit more...
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
If that's true I am very sad. Landspeeders are my thing. I want that transport! We've been waiting for it all along. The storm can't transport models in power armor, can only transport five, can not be taken in squadrons and is not a dedicated transport - therefore it's rather worthless. But that Storm Harbringer sounds fantastic! I need it for my army. And now stupid Blood Angels get it... argh. (And AV13 is just stupid, AV12 would have been fair enough for me.)

As for the rest: sounds very potent indeed! I am curious about the points. Maybe Blood Angels will only have minimum legal army at 1,000 points. :silly:
Rest assured, they also have the Land Speeder Storm. The Harbinger is stupid good. It's the Vendetta/Rune Priest/Long Fangs/Doom of Malan'tai/Mycetic Spore of the new Blood Angels codex. Every new codex needs one of those units to bring in the $$$...now let's see if GW is smart enough to actually come out with the model when they release the new codex instead of 1 year later.


I see what you mean but GW seem to be sticking more to the 'fluff' of the armies now, but remember people jump on 'the new codex' bandwagon a lot to get hold of the new rules. That still does not mean that the army will be overpowered, it may seem so on paper but it is how you make the army list that puts the people who consider the lists 'broken' on edge and to say about the new nids. Well they have a wide range of units to use but i dare you to try to use the new codex against a nid army that has 40 or more genestealers that all can outflank(not including the monsters) it will be very hard to shrugg them off as you will be dead before you can launch a counter attack.

Anyway blood angles deserve some of their new rules they will probably have some pitfalls that some people will exploit, but remember points cost tend to go sky high if you are not careful. Finally IF GW redo necrons people will say exactly the same thing they always do, in my opinion just play against them to form your opinion before slaging them off.
The new nids are good, but they are not overpowering in the slightest (well...maybe against some of the older codices). 40+ genes can easily be dealt with by smart deployment and the use of temp weaponry and bolter-spam.

I agree that each new codex release is (in some way) more powerful and overpowering to the ones preceeding it. GW is having financial problems of late (to my understanding) and they're obviously just making each new army more powerful than the last to get more money flowing through. While I appreciate this, I hate how everyone just blows all their money so that they're have an advantage over other players, every heard of fluff? Playing for fun? I play Sisters and I lose against Mawlocs and other new units because they've been built for a more modern game than the Sisters from 2003. This is why I prefer fantasy, the rules make more sense (to me anyway, like shooting at long range, why does 40k not have that???) and troops aren't expected to have 444414148 as their stats, try 333313137. Why does it have to be a battle of extremes, in both stats and new releases (all units in 12" have preferred enemy?!?! That's called overkill people!)

Sorry for the rant...
No worries. I'm not one to rant as I consider myself a competitive player (and maybe even a little bit of a power-gamer). However, even I have to draw the line somewhere...

Btw, sisters are still a very strong army. One of the upper-tier ones IMO if built properly.


Hmm, I was under the impression from rumour that the LOS blocker was a small blast marker, and it's the marker that disappears if anything touches it...

Maybe they were trying to make up for that accursed pamplet, and overshot the mark. Still, I'm looking forward to April :)
Now the description of the power is somewhat vague. Unlike jaws in which you have to pass an initiative test or the Doom of Malan'tai in which you have to pass a LD test and get your Inv saves, with the Blood Angel's psychic power, they are just removed without mention of having to take any tests. That can't be right. Imagine a doubles match with Blood Angels and dual-lash chaos on the same team...


Hmmm first, we dont have the codex yet and all of what you've said has been posted on Bell of Lost Souls. so at this point thats all rumors and probably still subject to more playtesting (until march or so).
Definitely agreed it needs a lot of playtesting....and then some nerfing.

Second of all, every army they have updated has been a strong update making them all competitive. So over the next 2 or 3 years when all the armies get updated they'll all be pretty strong and be balanced to each other. This happens everytime with new rules update and when they go through all the codexes to update them.

The sky is not falling, we'll be fine...
Doubt it. No codex is ever really fully balanced. They'll always be stronger armies and weaker armies. But I have noticed that the newer codices are designed with a lot of flexibility in mind, meaning you can play them with a lot of different builds. However, only 1-2 of those builds will end up being the "prefered competitive builds" and these builds are what people will cry about.


I have been tempted to build a small, 1K ELITE list full of expensive models, but I would really have to sell one of my current armies to do it... not going to happen! Every time there is a new Dex on the horizon people have the same reaction, want - let's all just stay calm till the book is finally here ;) I felt like I died a bit on the inside, when SWs got bikes with two attacks a piece BASE, but I tuffed it out. If I will see BA get some fast and good CC units I will just probably cry a bit more...
Cry your eyes out. They've just gotten faster with fleet and fast skimmers and better in CC with furious charge, feel no pain, fearless, prefered enemy, rending, assaulting-on-the-deepstrike, whatever-else-you-can-think-of in addition to having assault marines as troops.
 

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Another army that my Black Templars will lose to in cc even if i get the charge off...why bother?

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. I mean, I haven't seen the new codex and I know it isn't out yet, but the least they could do would be to play-test a bit more. The vendetta should never have made it in the Guard dex, 4 Rune Priests should never have made it into SW dex, and BA should definitely not get every possible cc upgrade; I don't care if they are supposed to be cc monsters. Something has to be able to beat them in some aspect. If not, why bother playing anything but rhino-spam SW, chimera-spam Guard, and flying-fast-transport-of-doom spam BA?
 

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No Life King
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I'm honestly giving up on panicking every time GW throws out something "broken" or "cheesy" in a new Codex. That's just how it works. A couple Power-house units, in an otherwise well balanced, and flavorful codex.

Yes there are some units that make you pause and say "what the heck were they thinking?" And you know what? That's been happening since I started playing at the very least (back when Daemonhunters were released).

Ignoring the special characters (I think using any spec char is a stupid idea in the first place, they're all ridiculous and there is no way Marneus Calgar is going planetside to fight a few dozen orks.) there are few units that you can call cheese at in the new dexes. Have a little faith that the codex will be sweet, but not mind blowingly powerful unless your opponent is a powergaming jerk who is there to win, not have fun.

Also, for those of you Marine players crying about how other chapters are getting new toys.

Kiss my shiny, metal rump. :p
 

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Also, for those of you Marine players crying about how other chapters are getting new toys.

Kiss my shiny, metal rump. :p
Assuming you were talking to me here: it isn't so much that I want new toys for my chapter of marines, but that I see another army I have to play with my cheesy, tournament-ready chimera-spam guard list to win, and that gets old.
 

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I can give a two-word reassurance for those worried about Blood Angel cheese: jump troops. For all of 5th Edition they've been ignored almost entirely. I see a lot of players come through my LGS and it's been over a year since I've seen any Assault Marines or other jump infantry on the tabletop. The basic rules make those jump packs a serious liability and the recent emphasis on alpha strikes--outflanking, drop-podding etc--hasn't encouraged non-mech infantry, either. A lot of what I see in the BA rumors is actually necessary to achieve parity.

...and may assault after deepstriking if equipped with jump packs.
This seems to be the major concern. Consider, however, that deepstriking is NOT drop-podding--there is no guaranteed safe landing, you aren't guaranteed half your force on turn 1 and trying to DS a large squad within 6" of an enemy is a terrible risk to run.

They have a new transport - the Storm Harbinger.
It's a Rhino for jump infantry, nothing more. A Rhino that deepstrikes onto the table and lets its Assault Marine passengers charge the enemy right away sounds broken until you see the point costs...maybe 225 for an 8-Marine jump squad with trimmings, plus maybe 150 for the transport? We're pushing 400 points for two units and, again, you're risking an unsafe deepstrike on top of that. And those two assault cannons? Only one will be firing unless the transport moves slowly. Razorbacks have had an assault cannon option for some time now...why aren't they being spammed?

...they get to place a large blast anywhere within 12". This blast blocks LOS...
I hope it is indeed a large blast and not a small one. If Assault Marines aren't doing insanely risky deepstrikes then they're doing banzai charges across open terrain. For the additional cost of a Librarian, maybe that Vindicator won't be able to finish what those podding Sternguard started and the Assault Marines will live long enough to take a morale test.

That's a close-combat Ironclad dread with psychic powers!
Truly a signature unit...but can it kill a squad of Assault Terminators before they smash it on the first try?


The BA Codex will focus on one of the hardest-to-use units in the entire tabletop game. Most of the awesome-sounding abilities lose their luster when the tradeoffs are low model count (in a close combat army!), dependence on unreliable deepstriking and reserves rolls, and a general lack of long-range firepower. They may be details we don't know about, of course, but until the actual release there's good reason not to worry.
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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Jy2: Your reading the Living Darkness power wrong. If any model comes into contact with the template its the TEMPLATE that gets removed, not the models. This actually makes the power quite weak, as it can be removed from causing a nuisance just by touching it. Believe me, this is the way it actually works.

As for the topic in general, Alzer has it right. Flipping out over rumors is silly and overdone, rumors always fail to mention the little things that keep the army in line, and they also tend to aviod posting points costs, which are ultimately the prime regulator on everything. Sure an army can have lots of cool and powerful units/wargear(indeed the last few codecies have) but how much can be fit into 1500-2000 points? Ultimately these armies end up being only fractionally(if at all) better than older codecies. I play vanilla marines and necrons and i have had absolutely zero problems facing off against Guard, Wolves and Nidz, or any other list for that matter. This is in both friendly and tournament play(I usually play a t a private club, but do go to GW events). This isn't because I am the be all to end all of strategic genius', but because really these new armies(whilst having cool new abilities and units) really don't mash everyone as hard as some people seem to think. Sure I can see how some armies(necrons for one, also DH,WH and some DE) can occasionally have trouble matching the power of newer dex's but thats because those codecies are so old, and any relatively modern codex(eldar,orks,chaos,daemons and tau included) really shouldn't have problems going toe to toe with a new codex.

I think the real problem lies in the fact that new books are just that, new. And when they come out it takes players some time to develop adequate counters to a new codecies units and strategies, especially if that new codex has very new concepts or bizarre units in it. This isn't really the new codex being overpowered, its players not adapting fast enough or well enough. Armies aren't supposed to be able to take on any other army with only minor changes to a standard list, players are supposed to have to adapt their army heavily depending on their opponents.
 

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That Which Has No Time
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I don't like these threads, but since I had posted (about Blood Angels actually getting an effective skimmer transport - which I wanted to have for my Marines, *cry*) I've kept on reading and came upon something I must comment on: how are jump infantry bad?! That is definitely not true at all. The reason for assault squads not being popular in the current Space Marine codex is because assault terminators are the better hard-hitters and because the fast attack slots are very dearly required for attack bikes and landspeeders. But jump infantry in general and assault squads in particular are still very strong! If they get a push by being made troops (so they don't compete with anything in the FOC and they become scoring) that is a long way to make them very, very popular. If I could take the assault squads as troops in the Space Marine codex I would prefer them over tacticals any day! I really think scoring assault squads are pretty badass and very competitive without requiring other upgrades to make them even better.

This is not me complaining and whining. Just defending the reputation of assault squads, who just happen to be in the wrong place: outassaulted by assault terminators and competing with much required anti-tank options. If they could fill the niche of scoring units, though, and add a quality assault terminators don't have - wow. They would be awesome.
 

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Son of LO
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All those out there panicking and selling their Space Wolves: please keep in mind that the current rumours are exactly that - rumours. I've been following them since day one and they've changed a lot. Much of what we assume is concrete turns out to be speculation.

The few outrageous additions - the Harbinger, the so-called Librarian Dreadnought (he's a Furioso with like two powers, and they suck) Mephiston and the Exalted - aren't really gamewinning and compose a small portion of the list as a whole. The psychic powers are underwhelming but tactically inventive, Furious Charge isn't yet confirmed, Death Company/Exalted are running at 35 points a model and OCE makes vehicles open-topped and probably more expensive. I've read all the rumours and Space Wolves still seem better.

There's this one character that gives the entire army Fleet, Furious Charge and Rage. Move over Shrike, Vulkan and Ragnar. This guy's the bomb.
Not really. The only thing he's giving your army that you don't already have is Fleet. The new (complicated) Red Thirst rules give units both FC and Rage if they fail (yes, fail) a leadership test. Plus, he has an eviscerator, which is highly meh on an IC and extraordinarily meh with FC. I prefer Shrike.

I say again; you have nothing to worry about. It'll seem undefeatable for about a month and then people will adapt in time for Necrons. I mean, it's not like the tactical squads have two close combat weapons and a free special rule.

Well, you do have to worry about one thing. Scoring Assault Marines.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I can give a two-word reassurance for those worried about Blood Angel cheese: jump troops. For all of 5th Edition they've been ignored almost entirely. I see a lot of players come through my LGS and it's been over a year since I've seen any Assault Marines or other jump infantry on the tabletop. The basic rules make those jump packs a serious liability and the recent emphasis on alpha strikes--outflanking, drop-podding etc--hasn't encouraged non-mech infantry, either. A lot of what I see in the BA rumors is actually necessary to achieve parity.
I disagree here. Jump marines have always been good, but the lack of being a scoring unit and the bounty of excellent marine elite choices (i.e. terminators, dreads, sternguards) has hurt them in that less people are using them. Now, with them being scoring units in a Blood Angels army, they're going to shine again, especially with their potential 24" charge range. Believe me, they're going to be one of the top 5 troop choices in all of 40K.

This seems to be the major concern. Consider, however, that deepstriking is NOT drop-podding--there is no guaranteed safe landing, you aren't guaranteed half your force on turn 1 and trying to DS a large squad within 6" of an enemy is a terrible risk to run.
True, though like other marine armies they can also take drop pods or bike squads with locator beacons. Deepstriking is just a tool they could use. It gives them added flexibility that other Marine chapters don't. Then again, they don't really need deepstriking. What's more dangerous is that the entire army can achieve a 1st turn charge. Just give them Storm Harbingers (dedicated transports) and they move 12", disembark 3", fleet 6" and assault 6" That's a potential 27" charge range.

The BA Codex will focus on one of the hardest-to-use units in the entire tabletop game. Most of the awesome-sounding abilities lose their luster when the tradeoffs are low model count (in a close combat army!), dependence on unreliable deepstriking and reserves rolls, and a general lack of long-range firepower. They may be details we don't know about, of course, but until the actual release there's good reason not to worry.
I agree that there is a tradeoff there - better units = less models. Assault marines are superior than tact squads in every sense. They are not one of the hardest-to-use units in the game. What they are is one of the most overlooked units in the game. And Blood Angels have just as much ranged AT as the vanilla brethens. It's just that it will appear less because assault marines and death company will eat up the points.


Jy2: Your reading the Living Darkness power wrong. If any model comes into contact with the template its the TEMPLATE that gets removed, not the models. This actually makes the power quite weak, as it can be removed from causing a nuisance just by touching it. Believe me, this is the way it actually works.
You're right. There is hope afterall.


I don't like these threads, but since I had posted (about Blood Angels actually getting an effective skimmer transport - which I wanted to have for my Marines, *cry*) I've kept on reading and came upon something I must comment on: how are jump infantry bad?! That is definitely not true at all. The reason for assault squads not being popular in the current Space Marine codex is because assault terminators are the better hard-hitters and because the fast attack slots are very dearly required for attack bikes and landspeeders. But jump infantry in general and assault squads in particular are still very strong! If they get a push by being made troops (so they don't compete with anything in the FOC and they become scoring) that is a long way to make them very, very popular. If I could take the assault squads as troops in the Space Marine codex I would prefer them over tacticals any day! I really think scoring assault squads are pretty badass and very competitive without requiring other upgrades to make them even better.
Spoken with truth. I'd also take them anyday over tacts if they were scoring. Give them fleet and furious charge on top of that and I may just have to make the Angels my 5th army.


All those out there panicking and selling their Space Wolves: please keep in mind that the current rumours are exactly that - rumours. I've been following them since day one and they've changed a lot. Much of what we assume is concrete turns out to be speculation.
I ain't ever selling my Wolves. ;)

Not really. The only thing he's giving your army that you don't already have is Fleet. The new (complicated) Red Thirst rules give units both FC and Rage if they fail (yes, fail) a leadership test. Plus, he has an eviscerator, which is highly meh on an IC and extraordinarily meh with FC. I prefer Shrike.
Furious charge due to the Red Thirst is not always guaranteed. You have about 60% to get it depending what you roll on your LD (if you roll 7+). With the character, it's guaranteed. The eviscerator makes him more dangerous than Lysander against vehicles. This guy is THE BOMB. Everyone's going to be using him, which is a shame. In competitive games, you're not going to see a lot of variety in terms of HQ's cuz he's going to be the main BOSS.

Well, you do have to worry about one thing. Scoring Assault Marines.
Amen.
 

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Toy Soldier Aficionado
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All those out there panicking and selling their Space Wolves: please keep in mind that the current rumours are exactly that - rumours. I've been following them since day one and they've changed a lot. Much of what we assume is concrete turns out to be speculation. .
I hope people start selling off their Space Puppies. I used to be the only Puppy player at the 2 shops I play at. Now everybody and his brother has one, Codex creep is getting old.
 

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I don't see a problem with an army full of deepstrikers and jump infantry. I play wolves, so I make them either walk the distance -negating their jump packs- or risk breaking their expensive necks trying to fly in a blizzard. Tempest's Wrath, Murderous Hurricane and Lord of Tempests, anyone? :D
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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5,068 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Just found something else that makes Blood Angels superior to vanilla Marines:


Their tactical squads, equipped the same as the smurfts w/flamer+ML, cost 10pts less! On top of that, their rhinos get the Over-charged special rule included for free!



Here's a quick 2000pt list I just made up. This army, if it gets 1st turn, will go for the 1st turn assault. Even if not, it is still durable with 5 AV13 transports.


Character w/Jump pack + Eviscerator (gives army fleet, furious charge and rage)

7x Assault Marines - Meltagun (Character here)
Sergeant w/Pfist + Storm Shield
Storm Harbinger - Tantalus gun, TL-melta

8x Assault Marines - Meltagun
Sergeant w/Pfist + Storm Shield
Storm Harbinger - Tantalus gun, TL-melta

8x Assault Marines - Meltagun
Sergeant w/Pfist + Storm Shield
Storm Harbinger - Tantalus gun, TL-plasma gun

8x Assault Marines - Flamer
Sergeant w/Power Weapon + Storm Shield
Storm Harbinger - Tantalus gun, TL-flamer

8x Assault Marines - Flamer
Sergeant w/Power Weapon + Storm Shield
Storm Harbinger - Tantalus gun, TL-flamer
 
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