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The deep down truth
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
OK I have spent the last few days reading the Tyranid codex and my god it is scary. I have held back commenting until I got the real thing in my hands but it seems as bad as I thought.

An example, here is a 2000pts list I created after four hours of reading the codex, yes four hours.

HQ
Alpha Warrior:
Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal glands (AG give furious charge)
Three Warriors
Boneswords, Venom cannon, AG:
Boneswords, Venom cannon:
Boneswords, Barbed strangler, AG:
Mycetic spore

Elites
Zoanthorpe brood (2 Zoans):
Mycetic spore

Deathleaper

Troops
Three Tervigons with Cluster spines and two with catalyst

Three units of Tarmies

Fast attack
Shrike squad
Rending claws, Venom cannon, AG
Boneswords, Venom cannon, AG
Bone swords, Barbed strangler, AG

Harpy
Cluster spines, TL heavy venom cannon, Regen

Heavy support
Mawloc

Carnifex, strangleweb, and mycetic spore

Just take a look at that:

6 Boneswords = these hit with furious charge and no armour saves and any multiple wound model wounded takes a LDS test, if it fails it dies instantly. Bye bye XV8’s
Four Venom cannons, nice STR6 blast (oh and the two VC in the Alpha squad use his BS, which is nice)
A twin linked STR9 venom cannon on wings
Carnie has a STR8 weapon and the Zoans have STR10 lance weapons.

Six Monstrous creatures: A Carnifex in a Mycetic spore so no more walking slowly over the field and he has regen, he is in your lines immediately and hard to kill. Three Tervigons that generate units of Tarmies every turn, deep strike these using the Deathleapers pheromone trial (no scatter). Oh and the Harpy, my god this thing is evil, a TL Venom cannon and spore attacks, he is winged and while not amazing at CC, it is a MC in CC with Tau (yep that’s a good combination). Oh and did I mention the Tervigons are troops.

Deathleaper: this thing is nasty, check his rules out.

Mawloc, well the carnage this thing can wreak in a closely packed deployment zone is frightening.

Then we have an Alpha Prime warrior with three Warriors. Yep TGH4 and a 4+ save is not brilliant but these are in a mycetic spore, they drop in your lines and hit you with two venom cannons, a deathspitter and a Barbed strangler when they arrive, ouch.
Ok shoot them next turn, good luck killing them all (check the wound allocation set up on these). Then they assault with Boneswords ouch again. Problem here is all the other stuff in your lines (that Carnie and a Mawloc just for starters). Zoans straight in your lines via Mycetic spore, watch out vehicles as these have a STR10 lance weapon or a nice AP3 attack that deals with XV’s nicely thanks.
Then we have the Shrike squad with those Venom cannons and quite evil assault capabilities.

Ok just how in god’s name do we handle that lot and this is an unrefined first list. Mech up well good luck with that with 6 MC’s, Zoans, Harpy with STR9 VC and pretty much anything being able to destroy vehicles in CC (rear armour remember). Piranhas and Kroot blocking? No does not work because the Mycetic spores are basically drop pods and Deathleaper means no scatter if he is close enough. The Mawloc and Deathleaper will also negate the the blocking as well. Harpy and Shrike squad are winged so can just jump over Piranha’s and Kroot (oh and those numerous blasts do not help the Kroot).

Fireknives: well you are going to need massed Markerlights to even dent those six MC’s with the Plasma. Railguns: oh yeah TGH6 MC’s SIX of them. Seriously this is just a skim over what this list can do.

I thought Wolves were bad enough but this seems to just be created to nerf Tau. We have no CC units to even give us a slim chance of handling the assault units that WILL get into our lines. The list above shows it is possible to create an assault list that also packs a decent amount of shooting. Can we outshoot the list above? Well no not really, even the Tervigons have a nasty cluster spines attack and the rest of the shooting is spread throughout the army. Kroot are going to last two minutes with the amount of blast attacks and vehicles will not have the time to do their work because the list is so fast at getting into the lines. XV88’s are going to be no use at all because they will be closed down so fast. Those MC's will just soak up any shooting.

It is a horror story, seriously it is. My 2000pts Tau list would last about two turns against this Nid list and like I said this is only a first attempt after reading the Codex for about four hours. If we meet Nids on a regular basis then Tau are going to struggle.

Opinions, am I being too pessimistic or am I missing something, I know we always have the doom and gloom posts when new a new codex comes out and I usually just dismiss them but really this codex is going to give us problems.
 

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The new nids codex is going to be really rough on us. The nids have lost immunity to instant death, but we don't have any weapons that can properly take advantage of that. At least with my IG I have S8+ large blasts for the Warriors and spammable Lascannons, or my DH where the GM can beat most MCs in CC. The three weapons we have that can ID warriors are single shot no blast.

There is one ray of hope - I believe the time has finally come for Ion-cannons on hammerheads as they could cause more wounds on the MCs than a Railgun. But our best hope is a new codex which could be along way off.
 

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wow i think this is the first time ive seen riki scared. . .its scaring me

But yeah thanks for your post i was just about to make a thread asking what people think the new nid dex will do to us and yeah well i guess its never too late nor early to take up drinking :beer: lol
 

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I think the SWs are actually much tougher for the Tau than the 'nids. I've been collecting 'nids for the past year and half in advance of the new codex, and I've already got lists in the works. (I've had an advance copy of the codex for a while now. And I'll have my first army built in a couple of weeks! Yeah!)

The SWs have thunderwolves, which are nigh-unstoppable for anybody, but really spell doom for us. And the SW psyker powers are absolutely murder. The codex is so over-the-top as to almost be officially "broken". The recent SW FAQ only cemented that status in place.

I'll take a 'nids matchup over SWs any day of the week.

Beating the new 'nids will indeed be tougher than the old 'nids (the old 'nids codex sucked ... hard) but they look quite beatable by Tau. But -- in my opinion -- you're gonna have to follow my list-building advice to have a good shot at it. ;)

You need to stock up on fireknives to maximize armour-denying firepower. (Only the tyrannofex has a 2+ save. I don't think anybody will by the armour upgrade for tyrants.) That gives you 4+ to put wounds on the MCs with no saves. Absolutely critical to have this capability. Tervigons have to be popped ASAP; they are the 'nids version of Tau Pathfinders. They make the rest of the 'nid army stronger, faster, killier ... just way more efficient.

And you'll need broadsides and railheads to instant death warriors and warrior primes.

And you'll need Kroot to absorb initial charges by MCs and gribblies. Lots of Kroot. Piranhas will also be an absolute requirement to set up roadblocks and cause initial damage with flechettes. Threatening wounds on tervigons and other MCs are also absolutely critical.

We must give the 'nid general something to think about other than simple-stupid charging into the Tau's face.

And you absolutely cannot have foot FWs. Minimize them -- no more than a single unit of 6 because they just can't kill 'nids in any amount that is worth it. Tuck them in a devilfish and use the devilfish as a gunboat. Warfish will be the order of the day. You need that increased mobile firepower. Points spent on more guns like that are better than points spent on FWs.
 

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The deep down truth
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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I think the SWs are actually much tougher for the Tau than the 'nids. I've been collecting 'nids for the past year and half in advance of the new codex, and I've already got lists in the works. (I've had an advance copy of the codex for a while now. And I'll have my first army built in a couple of weeks! Yeah!)

The SWs have thunderwolves, which are nigh-unstoppable for anybody, but really spell doom for us. And the SW psyker powers are absolutely murder. The codex is so over-the-top as to almost be officially "broken". The recent SW FAQ only cemented that status in place.

I'll take a 'nids matchup over SWs any day of the week.

Beating the new 'nids will indeed be tougher than the old 'nids (the old 'nids codex sucked ... hard) but they look quite beatable by Tau. But -- in my opinion -- you're gonna have to follow my list-building advice to have a good shot at it. ;)

You need to stock up on fireknives to maximize armour-denying firepower. (Only the tyrannofex has a 2+ save. I don't think anybody will by the armour upgrade for tyrants.) That gives you 4+ to put wounds on the MCs with no saves. Absolutely critical to have this capability. Tervigons have to be popped ASAP; they are the 'nids version of Tau Pathfinders. They make the rest of the 'nid army stronger, faster, killier ... just way more efficient.

And you'll need broadsides and railheads to instant death warriors and warrior primes.

And you'll need Kroot to absorb initial charges by MCs and gribblies. Lots of Kroot. Piranhas will also be an absolute requirement to set up roadblocks and cause initial damage with flechettes. Threatening wounds on tervigons and other MCs are also absolutely critical.

We must give the 'nid general something to think about other than simple-stupid charging into the Tau's face.

And you absolutely cannot have foot FWs. Minimize them -- no more than a single unit of 6 because they just can't kill 'nids in any amount that is worth it. Tuck them in a devilfish and use the devilfish as a gunboat. Warfish will be the order of the day. You need that increased mobile firepower. Points spent on more guns like that are better than points spent on FWs.
Sorry but how will your list stop that list I posted? Three FK units and a few railguns is not going to stop six (count em) MC's with most of them at TGH6 with lots of wounds. Your list has one lot of Markerlights (even if you put two in 2000pts you are still struggling). So your FK units would have to focus fire on one MC to destroy it or have two FK units hitting on 4+, the MC's get saves against Missile pods and three Plasma's are not going to remove 4/5 or even 6 wounds (dependent on MC). No insta kill from the Railguns on TGH6 and the Kroot and Piranhas are nerfed by the flying units, Mycetic spores, Mawloc and Deathleaper, all get past Kroot and Piranhas easily.

There is no way to stop this army getting to your lines, it can also put out some quite nasty shooting and CC, well lets just say god help any Tau list that this lot close to.
Even Mech is no defence and the blockading tactic simply does not work. Even Kroot bubble wrap fails badly because models are simply moved out of the way of the spores and the spores simply move to avoid terrain.

XV88's are sitting ducks and unless you take 9 they cannot begin to deal with what is being thrown at them, fine hit the Warriors and Prime but what about all the other stuff that is in your face? Four Railguns will not be enough and they will not have the time to shoot anyway, my list is even worse because it only has two RG's (list rethink on the horizon)

So please tell me exactly how your 2000pts list (remember mine follows pretty much the same tactics) is going to stop the list I posted. What needs remembering is that list is not even refined, it is a first attempt, just look at it and what it can do for a 1st attempt. Imagine two Harpys or some Tyranofex's or two Tyrants with guard etc etc, you get the idea.

Sorry but even massed Fireknives are simply not going to cut it against the massed MC lists we are going to see, not without massed ML support but that means we lose out on firepower in other areas to pay for it and even with 6MC's there is often going to be other stuff on top of them. Blockading is badly reduced in effectiveness and the kroot can only do so much.

There are simply to many ways in the codex that enable Nids to close lists down fast and that is terrible for Tau (same problem applies with Wolves to a point).

Just that one list I posted gives me pause for thought, god knows what it is going to be like when the codex is really understood.
 

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We may need to take this to another forum. (??) But in all honesty, your list doesn't scare me much. Here's how a Tau army should be able to dismantle it.

If you had three mawlocs, or could put at least 3 MCs in my face at once. In other words, if your list could saturate me with too many targets before I could deal with it, then I might be worried. And there are 'nid lists that could do that. I came to my own 'nid list constructions with the specific idea of beating my Tau (which I consider one of the strongest 40K army builds anywhere).

One mawloc is meh. Deployment is key here. Read the deep strike rules on p. 95. You must place the model down on the table before rolling the scatter dice. Have you seen how big that base is? Deploy in a loose anti-deep strike castle in a corner of the table -- like you always should anyway when facing deep strikers -- and the mawloc can't really hurt you. Firstly, it would have to be placed outside your castle. And secondly, it would have to scatter directly into your castle to do any damage. And thirdly, if you deployed loosely enough, you shouldn't be at risk to lose more than a couple of suits, maybe some Kroot as well, maybe take a S6 hit on the rear armour of a vehicle.

In other words, 1 mawloc is annoying, but not actually that dangerous. No matter what it does -- and the odds are it won't do too much -- shoot it down. Killing the single MC that is in front of you should be no trouble for a good Tau army list. One that has lots of railguns and plasma, that is. ;)

Now, if you had three mawlocs ... OK. You've got my attention. I'd be legitimately concerned.

But all that comes later. Let's start with game turn 1. You've got three tervigons, which aren't really threatening in the early game, but admittedly need to be killed. However, those flying shrikes got to go. But there's only 3 of them. Either you reserve them, or they will die. And I'd be surprised if I didn't have at least a few shots left over to punk into the Prime unit as well.

2nd turn is where things get interesting. But odds are you'll get just 1-2 of the things you reserved. Worst case scenario is both the carnifex and mawloc arrive on turn 2, and both are in my face. My 2000 pt list has enough firepower to take down both. (4 railguns, 20 plasma shots, 20 MP shots, plus assorted S5 weaponry scattered throughout for good measure) But even if things go terribly wrong, I've got Kroot buffers to absorb any initial damage these beasties -- particularly the carnifex -- might do. Kill the mawloc first (nearly guaranteed kill) and kill off the carnifex 2nd. If not totally successful, feed the carnifex some Kroot and then kill it the next turn.

It's turn 3 now, and all the MCs save the tervigons are at least handled, and the only actual threat to the army left is the prime unit of warriors and/or the zoanthropes, assuming they're on the table by now. Just continue down the target priority checklist until the army is defeated.

I'm not saying this will be a cakewalk. But I am saying the 'nid army you posted provides obvious target priorities each and every game turn. And the thing that Tau totally excel at is eliminating any unit (or limited number of units) within single game turns. It's what the army is actually designed by GW to do well. So long as a Tau army is not overloaded with too many targets, it can fight its way to victory. (It's how I win my games. ;) )

Here's the 2000 pt 'nid list I designed that totally beats my Tau army's face in most of the time.

HQ
[255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander
[255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander

Elite
[160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
[160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
[140 pts] Deathleaper

Troop
[50 pts] 10 Termagants
[165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons
[50 pts] 10 Termagants
[165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons

Heavy
[200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
[200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
[200 pts] Trygon

Total: 2000 pts

The entire army goes into reserves and looks to go 2nd if at all possible. (Thus denying 2 full turns of enemy shooting.) On the 'nid turn 2, everything comes down on a 2+, and everything deep strikes into position. I can have up to 4 spores, 4 zoeys, and 5 MCs all in your face. Plus Deathleaper. Plus the option of outflanking at least 1 tervigon (make that 6 MCs, then!) and some termagants for funsies dropping scoring units and screening units downfield as well. Leave 1 tervigon and some termagants back home to secure home objectives, do all the fighting in the enemy's half of the table.

Everything deep strikes safely (there's really no risk to the tyrants either since they have wings and can be dropped somewhat farther away for total safety) and it's just too many MCs too close too fast for my Tau to reasonably handle. Overload!
 

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The new nids are certainly scary.

They make it very hard to go for the objectives in some missions. Kill points don't worry me so much, but in the objective based missions I feel the best I can hope for is a draw.

We may have to look into some different suit configurations and seeker missiles just got a lot better IMHO since they can instant kill the warrior type creatures.

To be honest the monsterous creatures don't bother me, it's the smaller things. The monsterous creatures just buy time for the little tackers to get there.
 

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We may need to take this to another forum. (??) But in all honesty, your list doesn't scare me much. Here's how a Tau army should be able to dismantle it.

If you had three mawlocs, or could put at least 3 MCs in my face at once. In other words, if your list could saturate me with too many targets before I could deal with it, then I might be worried. And there are 'nid lists that could do that. I came to my own 'nid list constructions with the specific idea of beating my Tau (which I consider one of the strongest 40K army builds anywhere).

One mawloc is meh. Deployment is key here. Read the deep strike rules on p. 95. You must place the model down on the table before rolling the scatter dice. Have you seen how big that base is? Deploy in a loose anti-deep strike castle in a corner of the table -- like you always should anyway when facing deep strikers -- and the mawloc can't really hurt you. Firstly, it would have to be placed outside your castle. And secondly, it would have to scatter directly into your castle to do any damage. And thirdly, if you deployed loosely enough, you shouldn't be at risk to lose more than a couple of suits, maybe some Kroot as well, maybe take a S6 hit on the rear armour of a vehicle.

In other words, 1 mawloc is annoying, but not actually that dangerous. No matter what it does -- and the odds are it won't do too much -- shoot it down. Killing the single MC that is in front of you should be no trouble for a good Tau army list. One that has lots of railguns and plasma, that is. ;)

Now, if you had three mawlocs ... OK. You've got my attention. I'd be legitimately concerned.

But all that comes later. Let's start with game turn 1. You've got three tervigons, which aren't really threatening in the early game, but admittedly need to be killed. However, those flying shrikes got to go. But there's only 3 of them. Either you reserve them, or they will die. And I'd be surprised if I didn't have at least a few shots left over to punk into the Prime unit as well.

2nd turn is where things get interesting. But odds are you'll get just 1-2 of the things you reserved. Worst case scenario is both the carnifex and mawloc arrive on turn 2, and both are in my face. My 2000 pt list has enough firepower to take down both. (4 railguns, 20 plasma shots, 20 MP shots, plus assorted S5 weaponry scattered throughout for good measure) But even if things go terribly wrong, I've got Kroot buffers to absorb any initial damage these beasties -- particularly the carnifex -- might do. Kill the mawloc first (nearly guaranteed kill) and kill off the carnifex 2nd. If not totally successful, feed the carnifex some Kroot and then kill it the next turn.

It's turn 3 now, and all the MCs save the tervigons are at least handled, and the only actual threat to the army left is the prime unit of warriors and/or the zoanthropes, assuming they're on the table by now. Just continue down the target priority checklist until the army is defeated.

I'm not saying this will be a cakewalk. But I am saying the 'nid army you posted provides obvious target priorities each and every game turn. And the thing that Tau totally excel at is eliminating any unit (or limited number of units) within single game turns. It's what the army is actually designed by GW to do well. So long as a Tau army is not overloaded with too many targets, it can fight its way to victory. (It's how I win my games. ;) )

Here's the 2000 pt 'nid list I designed that totally beats my Tau army's face in most of the time.

HQ
[255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander
[255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander

Elite
[160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
[160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
[140 pts] Deathleaper

Troop
[50 pts] 10 Termagants
[165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons
[50 pts] 10 Termagants
[165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons

Heavy
[200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
[200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
[200 pts] Trygon

Total: 2000 pts

The entire army goes into reserves and looks to go 2nd if at all possible. (Thus denying 2 full turns of enemy shooting.) On the 'nid turn 2, everything comes down on a 2+, and everything deep strikes into position. I can have up to 4 spores, 4 zoeys, and 5 MCs all in your face. Plus Deathleaper. Plus the option of outflanking at least 1 tervigon (make that 6 MCs, then!) and some termagants for funsies dropping scoring units and screening units downfield as well. Leave 1 tervigon and some termagants back home to secure home objectives, do all the fighting in the enemy's half of the table.

Everything deep strikes safely (there's really no risk to the tyrants either since they have wings and can be dropped somewhat farther away for total safety) and it's just too many MCs too close too fast for my Tau to reasonably handle. Overload!
not te be harsh, but the mawloc can deep strike into assualt, go and ask GW, its in the pre-FAQ theyve already resolved it, not to go and get my nids.
 

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not te be harsh, but the mawloc can deep strike into assualt, go and ask GW, its in the pre-FAQ theyve already resolved it, not to go and get my nids.
Deep-striking into assault? I'll believe it when I see it. Gotta see an official FAQ for that, as very few units can deep strike and then assault immediately after. SM Vanguard Vets come to mind. But the Mawloc has no such stipulation right now. In fact, that would clearly be an Errata and not a FAQ, as that adds a totally new rule to the Mawloc that it doesn't currently have.
 

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not te be harsh, but the mawloc can deep strike into assualt, go and ask GW, its in the pre-FAQ theyve already resolved it, not to go and get my nids.
Had my first battle against them this weekend and they are scary. I actually do run a list similar to Number6's (one I have had great success with and enjoy playing greatly) and even with a bounty of fireknifes on the field, 2 railheads, and 3 B'sides it was a tough sell getting the job done.

Besides the onslaught of 6W MC's, an additional issue I found was the lack of S8+ hitting power to pop a fair number of Tyranid warriors. Giving them an extra wound in the new 'dex just adds insult to injury despite the changes to Synapse.
Did manage to chew through the Warriors with the Suits, but it meant it was firepower not being leveraged against the MC's. Too many high T wounds to clear before I had multi-wound T6 nasties deepstriking in my backfield. And the Trygon has an A12 (yeah that's not a typo. 12!) shooting attack when he pops up next to the objective.

The worst of it is that my opponent is planning on adding a Mawloc to his list moving forward. As if D/S-ing into assault isn't bad enough, the Mawloc he can do it UP TO 3 TIMES A GAME!

Have to say I share Riki's sentiment about having some questions with the viability of a competitive and enjoyable Nid/Tau match up anymore. I mean who wants to trot the troops out to a predetermined massacre every game?

Any thoughts? I would love for someone to convince me I am over-reacting!
 

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The deep down truth
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
We may need to take this to another forum. (??) But in all honesty, your list doesn't scare me much. Here's how a Tau army should be able to dismantle it.

If you had three mawlocs, or could put at least 3 MCs in my face at once. In other words, if your list could saturate me with too many targets before I could deal with it, then I might be worried. And there are 'nid lists that could do that. I came to my own 'nid list constructions with the specific idea of beating my Tau (which I consider one of the strongest 40K army builds anywhere).
The Harpy is bad enough , the Shrikes are bad the Tarmies need handling, I deploy the Tervigons as close as possible (they are TGH6 with 6 wounds each) and they spawn Tarmies from first turn. So good luck taking three TGH6, 6 wound creatures down while avoiding the two flying units. If I get first turn I get to move even closer and I shoot with that twin linked Venom cannon, two STR6 VC's, Barbed strangler and the Tirvigons three STR5 large blasts etc etc. If you get first turn then yes you may well kill a few (though I cannot see it, with three BS4 Firekife units and four railguns and the MP's will not do much as the Tirvs have 3+ saves) The Harpy is quite vulnerable but if you put everything at it the others are unhurt. No sorry I play Tau dude I know that you could not stop those units even with frst turn.
One mawloc is meh. Deployment is key here. Read the deep strike rules on p. 95. You must place the model down on the table before rolling the scatter dice. Have you seen how big that base is? Deploy in a loose anti-deep strike castle in a corner of the table -- like you always should anyway when facing deep strikers -- and the mawloc can't really hurt you. Firstly, it would have to be placed outside your castle. And secondly, it would have to scatter directly into your castle to do any damage. And thirdly, if you deployed loosely enough, you shouldn't be at risk to lose more than a couple of suits, maybe some Kroot as well, maybe take a S6 hit on the rear armour of a vehicle.
It seems to me that you do not know how the Mawloc works. The Mawloc does not have to be placed outside the castle, it can DS on top of models and instead of rolling for mishap you place the large blast template over the spot the mawloc lands/emerges and any unit under it (and that includes partials) takes as many STR6, AP2 hits as models covered. Notice that 'the unit' not individual models, so units with multiple wound models like your FK's would lose whole models (remember you must remove whole models when possible). Vehicles are struck on rear armour (STR6 hit on rear armour, mm nice). Any surviving models are moved the minimum distance to clear all models from under the template (any that cannot move are destroyed). Sorry but that makes the castle or bubble wrap tactic pretty much screwed. If you pack models together they are going to take STR6, AP2 hits. Yeah the castle/bubble wrap tactic looks really strong against that.
In other words, 1 mawloc is annoying, but not actually that dangerous. No matter what it does -- and the odds are it won't do too much -- shoot it down. Killing the single MC that is in front of you should be no trouble for a good Tau army list. One that has lots of railguns and plasma, that is. ;)
Who says it is going to be the single MC infornt of you? What abotu the Tirvs and Harpy? Like I said you do not seem to have grasped how the Mawloc works. The list is pretty much split between Mycetic and ontable deployment. There is enough on the table to worry your units but you have to contend with three drop pods straight into your lines with Deathleaper ensuring at least one or two will not even scatter. You have to worry about a TMawloc and Deathleaper appearing and disapearing.
Now, if you had three mawlocs ... OK. You've got my attention. I'd be legitimately concerned.
I think you underestimte this list.I have played tested this in two friendly games against my Tau list, result was not good for the Tau.
But all that comes later. Let's start with game turn 1. You've got three tervigons, which aren't really threatening in the early game, but admittedly need to be killed. However, those flying shrikes got to go. But there's only 3 of them. Either you reserve them, or they will die. And I'd be surprised if I didn't have at least a few shots left over to punk into the Prime unit as well.
Yep hit the Shrikes, feel free but what about the Harpie and the Tarmies (30 of them)? The Tirvs are going to pump out Tarmies which will swamp your lines, tie up units in assualt and by the way the Tirvs can run if ground needs covering. It seems to me that you do not really see what will be coming at you from the first turn (Oh by the way the prime unit is in a spore, so it wont be taking fire).
2nd turn is where things get interesting. But odds are you'll get just 1-2 of the things you reserved. Worst case scenario is both the carnifex and mawloc arrive on turn 2, and both are in my face. My 2000 pt list has enough firepower to take down both. (4 railguns, 20 plasma shots, 20 MP shots, plus assorted S5 weaponry scattered throughout for good measure) But even if things go terribly wrong, I've got Kroot buffers to absorb any initial damage these beasties -- particularly the carnifex -- might do. Kill the mawloc first (nearly guaranteed kill) and kill off the carnifex 2nd. If not totally successful, feed the carnifex some Kroot and then kill it the next turn.
One or two, even two spell real trouble for you. That Carnie will soak up masses of fire, the Prime unit can put a nasty amount of fire down when it arrives, the Zoans have 3+ inv saves and their weapons are scary. Mawloc is nasty. 20 Plasma shots(if they are at rapid fire range) most at BS3, even if 15 hit they need 4+ to wound a Tirv, so 10 wounds. However the problem you have is you have those Plasma split through three units so unless you focus fire on one MC you cannot be sure you are going to take down each one. The MP's again miss 50% and need 3+ to wound but Tirvs get a 3+ save, so what maybe 3 wounds. You have 4 railguns, you will usually have 3 hits and even if they all wound that is only three wounds. STR5 pfft what the FW's that you never take out of the DF's and the Kroot have STR4 weapons. Kroot buffers suck against flying creatures and they will not be so good after three STR5 large blasts, the Harpys D3 STR4 large balst spore mine barrage and venom cannons.
It's turn 3 now, and all the MCs save the tervigons are at least handled, and the only actual threat to the army left is the prime unit of warriors and/or the zoanthropes, assuming they're on the table by now. Just continue down the target priority checklist until the army is defeated.
Quite simply rubbish. Tell me how do you take 18 wounds from TGH6 models with 3+ saves in two turns, then there is the Harpy and the Shirke units and the Tarmies and what ever arrives turn two. Three BS4 Fk units (with one PF unit), two BS3 HH's and 2 XV88's will not kill that lot (even if you have two Shas'El FK's it makes no real difference)
I'm not saying this will be a cakewalk. But I am saying the 'nid army you posted provides obvious target priorities each and every game turn. And the thing that Tau totally excel at is eliminating any unit (or limited number of units) within single game turns. It's what the army is actually designed by GW to do well. So long as a Tau army is not overloaded with too many targets, it can fight its way to victory. (It's how I win my games. ;) )
To right it won't be a cakewalk. I really do not think you have grasped how the list above works. Youseem to think there will be limited units first turn but that is not rue and the DS units are all tough units that can stand fire but will hurt badly. They can all land bang smack in the middle of your forces. The mawloc is alot more dangerous than you seem to think it is (go read the rules again). You are not taling to some Tau newbie here, I know exactly what your list is capable of and I know exactly what it is capable of, the tactics it uses and what damage it can put out. I am telling you, you are underesimating what the list is capable of. The point i was trying to make though is this is the first list I came up with after four hours and it is quite capable of beating your list and mine quite easily. Just think of how bad it is going to be when I have studied the codex. Tau are really going to struggle because we do not have any ability to stop those MC's with CC (or the other miriad of CC units).
Here's the 2000 pt 'nid list I designed that totally beats my Tau army's face in most of the time.

HQ
[255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander
[255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander

Elite
[160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
[160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
[140 pts] Deathleaper

Troop
[50 pts] 10 Termagants
[165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons
[50 pts] 10 Termagants
[165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons

Heavy
[200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
[200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
[200 pts] Trygon

Total: 2000 pts

The entire army goes into reserves and looks to go 2nd if at all possible. (Thus denying 2 full turns of enemy shooting.) On the 'nid turn 2, everything comes down on a 2+, and everything deep strikes into position. I can have up to 4 spores, 4 zoeys, and 5 MCs all in your face. Plus Deathleaper. Plus the option of outflanking at least 1 tervigon (make that 6 MCs, then!) and some termagants for funsies dropping scoring units and screening units downfield as well. Leave 1 tervigon and some termagants back home to secure home objectives, do all the fighting in the enemy's half of the table.

Everything deep strikes safely (there's really no risk to the tyrants either since they have wings and can be dropped somewhat farther away for total safety) and it's just too many MCs too close too fast for my Tau to reasonably handle. Overload!
Funny thing is everything in my list can DS safely, you mention DS as a strength in yours but its a weakness in mine wha? However it shows you have a decent list, so do I, both capable of beating probably the best Tau lists out there and this is what week one of the release. Does that not worry you in the slightests
 

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We may need to take this to another forum. (??) But in all honesty, your list doesn't scare me much. Here's how a Tau army should be able to dismantle it.

If you had three mawlocs, or could put at least 3 MCs in my face at once. In other words, if your list could saturate me with too many targets before I could deal with it, then I might be worried. And there are 'nid lists that could do that. I came to my own 'nid list constructions with the specific idea of beating my Tau (which I consider one of the strongest 40K army builds anywhere).

One mawloc is meh. Deployment is key here. Read the deep strike rules on p. 95. You must place the model down on the table before rolling the scatter dice. Have you seen how big that base is? Deploy in a loose anti-deep strike castle in a corner of the table -- like you always should anyway when facing deep strikers -- and the mawloc can't really hurt you. Firstly, it would have to be placed outside your castle. And secondly, it would have to scatter directly into your castle to do any damage. And thirdly, if you deployed loosely enough, you shouldn't be at risk to lose more than a couple of suits, maybe some Kroot as well, maybe take a S6 hit on the rear armour of a vehicle.

In other words, 1 mawloc is annoying, but not actually that dangerous. No matter what it does -- and the odds are it won't do too much -- shoot it down. Killing the single MC that is in front of you should be no trouble for a good Tau army list. One that has lots of railguns and plasma, that is. ;)
We may need to take this to another forum. (??) But in all honesty, your list doesn't scare me much. Here's how a Tau army should be able to dismantle it.

If you had three mawlocs, or could put at least 3 MCs in my face at once. In other words, if your list could saturate me with too many targets before I could deal with it, then I might be worried. And there are 'nid lists that could do that. I came to my own 'nid list constructions with the specific idea of beating my Tau (which I consider one of the strongest 40K army builds anywhere).

One mawloc is meh. Deployment is key here. Read the deep strike rules on p. 95. You must place the model down on the table before rolling the scatter dice. Have you seen how big that base is? Deploy in a loose anti-deep strike castle in a corner of the table -- like you always should anyway when facing deep strikers -- and the mawloc can't really hurt you. Firstly, it would have to be placed outside your castle. And secondly, it would have to scatter directly into your castle to do any damage. And thirdly, if you deployed loosely enough, you shouldn't be at risk to lose more than a couple of suits, maybe some Kroot as well, maybe take a S6 hit on the rear armour of a vehicle.

In other words, 1 mawloc is annoying, but not actually that dangerous. No matter what it does -- and the odds are it won't do too much -- shoot it down. Killing the single MC that is in front of you should be no trouble for a good Tau army list. One that has lots of railguns and plasma, that is. ;)
All fair and sound points, Number6.

However, the Mawloc doesn't use true D/S deployment. He burrows, can target a UNIT to burst up under and rolls scatter from that target. On top of that he detonates a high strength very low AP pie plate when he comes up (read no saves for our beloved Crisis there). Then every other turn he can wash, rinse, repeat to savage another unit. So the damage/strategic potential of a single Mawloc is actually quite impressive. It also leaves us in the position of peeling off all 6 wounds in a single turn before he burrows again to go mess with someone else. And woe betide you if you have a Mawloc and Trygon pop up the same turn...

The Trygon, however, DOES use standard D/S deployment and would be countered (at least for deployment purposes) by the usual anti-D/S measures you mention.

Regrettably it is not hard at all to put lists together with multiple MC's and Mawlocs/Trygons. I played against a 2000pt list this weekend that included 2 Tyrants, 1 Carni, and a Trygon. That's a solid 18 T6 wounds from MC's alone plus another 14 T6 Wounds from other Hive and Tyrant Guard, as well as 24 Synapse wounds on Warriors. That's a lot to deal with just going on raw numbers alone (how many shots do I get a turn again?). And if your Nid opponent is somewhat seasoned and intelligent about deployment and use of cover (don't even get me started on Venomthropes!) it is amazing how quickly those MP's, PR's, and Rails falter due to LOS or Cover save issues.

I've also read about Paroxysm. That's a psychic power that nulls out the ballistic skill of a single unit for a turn. Again, one has to wonder if the crew coming up with the new Nid codex had a a real bug in their bonnet over Tau...
 

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Had my first game against them yesterday, 1500pts

My list was (roughly)

Helios Shas'el
Helios Shas'el

2 TL-Plasma rifle w/flamer crisis
2 TL-Plasma rifle w/flamer crisis
2 TL-Plasma rifle w/flamer crisis

10 kroots
7 FW in a devilfish,dp
6 FW in a devilfish,dp
6 FW in a devilfish,dp

Ionhead+2 burst cannons, dp, mt, tl
Ionhead+2 burst cannons, dp, mt, tl
Ionhead+2 burst cannons, dp, mt, tl

His list was, roughly:

Tyrant+ 1 guard
Tervigon
3 Hive guard
20 Termagaunt
20 Termagaunt
2 Zoanthrope
2 Zoanthrope
7 Warrior in a mycetic spore
Mawlock

Not the best of lists on my part, but I don't have a ton of models yet. I only have 8 suits, 3 stealth, broadsides and a pirhana in addition to what I played. It was also my second game with Tau. My opponent was using the 5th ed Nids for the first time, but he's a long time Nids players...

We rolled Spearhead and annihilation. I got first turn. I kept all my FWs and a unit of crisis in reserves. He had the Mawlock and warriors in reserve.

I won't do a battle report as we finished around midnight and I can't remember all the details. Suffice to say that the 3 ionheads were murder against the Hive Tyrant and Mawlock. The crisis did ok, but got assaulted too easily trying to get into optimal shooting range. The Tervigon spawned around 40 termagants (no doubles!!!) in 4 turns ( and gave FNP to the hive guards so they survived long enough to pummel my devilfished/crisis suits). The zoanthropes soaked a lot of firepower (I dedicated most of the 2 first turns destroying them). Finally, the 7 warriors dropped near 2 devilfishes and destroyed them, the passengers and drone (yeah, 3 KP!). It ended 8KP for him and 6KP for me. Not too bad, but I definitely had a more "tooled" list than he did. Who's ever played with 3 ionhead!? :\

I'm still not sure what I'll be able to do against more powerful Nids lists. Warriors are worrisome. A basic unit of 5 in a Mycetic spore takes about 24 shots of TL-missile pod to take down. Two of them hitting your line while 2 trygons are doing the same is pretty hard to beat(the total cost of all those would be a bit over 50% of your 1500pts list, though). Add to that a couple of pairs of Zoathropes and a couple of Tervigon (+6d6 termagants per turn, for 2 turns on average!!!) and you got a really rock hard list!!!

And many Nids players complain about their dex on Warseer!!! :silly:

However, the Mawloc doesn't use true D/S deployment. He burrows, can target a UNIT to burst up under and rolls scatter from that target.
Don't let the Nid players fool you! Although the codex states what happen IF you scatter in an enemy unit, you must still legally DS the Mawlock 1" away from enemy unit!!!

Phil
 

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no, the model can come up into a enemy unit, it can even happen against our own units. GO ASK GAMES WORKSHOP, its already been pre FAQed and they may hve a copy.
 

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I dunno. Maybe it's time to go back to basics. 12 FW's pumping out 24 S5 shots is nothing to sneeze at. Get 4-6 squads of them and give them transports each and then back them up by broadsides, hammerheads and some suits and then it doesn't look as dark as it seems. Honestly, I agree with number6 in that I think the Space Wolves are potentially more dangerous than the nids.
 

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no, the model can come up into a enemy unit, it can even happen against our own units. GO ASK GAMES WORKSHOP, its already been pre FAQed and they may hve a copy.
I'll have to wait for the online FAQ... I just had too many wrong answers from GW staffers... As for now, the codex clearly doesn't authorize "volontary" DS into a unit.

As for the FW, unfortunately, other than against gants, they are not that effective. 24 shots wil do about 1 wound on an MC and 4 wounds in Warriors (killing one, leaving 4 to charge you nex turn!). This is not "panic reaction", mind you! ;-) It sincere questionning on how to most effectively field Tau against them...
 

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The deep down truth
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I'll have to wait for the online FAQ... I just had too many wrong answers from GW staffers... As for now, the codex clearly doesn't authorize "volontary" DS into a unit.

As for the FW, unfortunately, other than against gants, they are not that effective. 24 shots wil do about 1 wound on an MC and 4 wounds in Warriors (killing one, leaving 4 to charge you nex turn!). This is not "panic reaction", mind you! ;-) It sincere questionning on how to most effectively field Tau against them...
This thread is not a panic thread either. I have played Tau since day one and I have seen new codex releases come and go with the associated panic responses. The Nid codex though is a different beast altogether for Tau. This codex has quite simple totally removed our two strengths, mobility and firepower.
Take for example the heavy Venom cannon, STR9 with -1 to any damage result, mmm no more glancing hit only (unless I missed something) so hit a Hammerhead, roll a 6 on the damage result and it can be destroyed and lower AV vehicles are prime targets (esp if you hit side armour). Note how many STR5/6 Blasts are available, Zoans with STR10 Lance weapons and AP3 blast. Tyranofex, just take a look at the weaponry on that and cringe.

They have units that can give feel no pain to units near them and TGH6, 6 wounds models and the ability to take multiple MC's with those stats.
They have drop pods which basically makes movement redundant, drop a unit close (lictors make DS much more reliable) and make no mistake it is easy to outfit a unit or Warriors that can do immense shooting damage when they arrive in a spore AND still be dangerous in assault or drop 20 Tarmies etc.

They have multiple DS units (Deathleaper, Mawloc, Lictors etc) and Stealers that can be deployed in any terrain piece and assault on the turn they arrive. They have multiple winged units (Tyrant, Gargs, Harpy, Warriors). Rule that allow units to run AND shoot. it just goes on and on.

We have an army that can easily keep up with us at shooting, negate movement advantages, negate blockading tactics and absolutely crush us in CC, just wait till your expensive and vital XV8 unit gets hit by a unit of Warriors with Boneswords for example.

Going on the examples of the Space wolf codex (that was bad enough) and the new Nids any new Tau codex better be on the awesome side. I created a Tau fandex and I thought (and so did some others esp at LO) that it was overpowered, hah right I am going back to it and redoing it because it is underpowered.

Put quite simply Tau win by doing one thing 'keeping an enemy at distance while shooting them to death'. I simply cannot see how Tau players can accomplish this unless they face a rubbish player with a bad Nid list. If you find yourself facing a half decent list used by a half decent player then you will in all likely hood lose
I am going to continue with Tau but I am prepared to suck up many more losses when facing Nids. I am however as a long term Nid player (not so much with the last codex in 5th because they sucked) looking forward to making some kick ass Nid armies.
 

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IM glad i play nids and tau but my friend is a tool and has started collecting nids because he got his ass whopped by them.


And even though they got a new codex im still not back into the mood for screaming aliens.

i like those shiny battle suits too much:dance:

But no w any static unit will be destroyed.

Poor broadsides and multi trackers are an even bigger must.
 

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Firstly, to riki and others who say the mawloc can deep strike directly onto enemy units. I say, "True!" But as already pointed out by myself and now boreas, the mawloc doesn't actually break the deep strike rules on p. 95 of the BRB. The only exception the mawloc has for deep striking is that it does something different other than mishap if and only if a mishap would be result of the scatter dice. The BRB clearly states the mawloc MUST be placed on the table BEFORE you roll scatter dice. There is no exception in the mawloc's rules for this. Thus, your standard loose castle deployment against deep striking still defends against it quite nicely. 1/3 chance that it just pops up and does nothing, therefor. And on the 2/3 chance that it scatters, it still must scatter into the castle (let's say 50% chance of that) as opposed to some other direction parallel to or away from it. So call it a 1/3 chance that the mawloc will actually hurt any models of yours when it deep strikes. That is acceptable odds. And furthermore, proper loose castle deployment will also minimize the damage. If you're losing entire units to such things then you deployed incorrectly.

If you play against deep strikers, you should know how to deploy. If you play against IG, you should know how to defend against large blast templates with deployment and model positioning. These tools are all you need to defend against the mawloc.

GW may possibly create some Errata for this in the FAQ that they will someday release. They may say the mawloc actually doesn't get placed on the table when it deep strikes. But until then, the RAW is totally unambiguous.

As I said, ONE mawloc is just not that dangerous. TWO would constitute concern. THREE, however, can be quite scary if only because it's difficult to remove 18 T6 wounds ... even for an army like mine.

So riki's one mawloc is just not a threat. You have at least one free turn without it to trouble you. And if 4 railguns, 10-20 plasma shots, 20 missile pod shots, and the host of S5 weaponry available throughout your army list aren't enough to take out 3 shrikes and a harpy in one turn, then the dice gods have truly abandoned you. Bad luck is sinking your game, not the threat level of the 'nids presented in riki's list. There is absolutely no reason to shoot at tervigons or gaunts or the warriors in turn 1 unless you are terrifically efficient at taking out the shrikes and harpy.

Similarly, if all that firepower can't remove just 10 T6 wounds (off the mawloc and carnifex), even assuming all those wounds show up at once on turn 2, then again, it's not the fault of your list. Your dice have truly abandoned you. Just normal odds will have you removing both monsters in 1 turn with a few shots left over for, say, tervigons or the Prime.

The difference between my list, riki, and yours is that you have a bunch of stuff in reserves but no way to bring them in reliably. (4+ starting turn 2) So the odds are they come in piecemeal, and are therefor dealt with sequentially, turn by turn. This also means that the army that remains on the table is at a disadvantage against my tau. For at least 1 full game turn, it's my 2000 pts vs your ~1500 pts. Major advantage to the Tau!

My list, by comparison, is entirely in reserves. It will deny at least one turn of your firepower, possibly two (out of a game that can be as short as just 5 turns). And the arrival of the units is made maximally reliable (2+ on turn 2, auto every successive turn) by the use of 2x tyrants with hive commander. If you can't see the difference between the effectiveness of the deep strike tactics between those two lists, I don't know what to tell you.

riki, you talk about the "threat" of 30 termagaunts and 3 tervigons. I disagree entirely. And I say this as someone who is employing at least 2 tervis and 2x termagaunts in every 'nid list I've so far made and fought with. Tervigons are no carnifexes, hive tyrants, trygons ... or even mawlocs (who really aren't that great in close combat). Granted, everything is a combat monster to Tau, but tervis are slow. They are not fleet. And you of all people should know how to clean off hordes of gribblies with Tau! Although I maintain that you'd be better off shooting down tervis and just blocking/tying up termagaunts with skimmer walls and Kroot. Killing tervis also kills off termagants and removes synapse and a host of other army-wide boosts.

In other words, with a 5e 'nids list like yours, it's just like old times with the old 4e 'nids, even. Nothing there has changed. Except that with a list like yours, the tervis can be prioritized down for a turn or two ... and then (relatively) easily dealt with because there is little truly threatening left at that point.

I grant that the 5e 'nids, in general, are significantly better. Even a crappy 5e 'nids army will absolutely destroy non-mech armies with relative ease. But Tau are mech! Or at least now MUST be much. (It's the death knell of anybody who dreams about Tau "gunlines".) And Tau still have firepower. And Tau are still mobile. Our old tools will still work against the new 'nids ... we're just going to have to work a bit harder at it. And we won't be able to get away with suit builds that aren't fireknives, IMHO. ;) Tau units which aren't totally maximally efficient against MCs and gribblies (or "mech" and "infantry" for non-'nid armies) have to be kicked to the curb. Which is to say, I think the "viable" list of army builds just got a little bit smaller and more restrictive.
 
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