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The deep down truth
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I have recently seen quite a bit of reference on this forum and others regarding a supposed 10/10 or an ultra effective Tau list and I am curious.
It seems to center around a lack of Fire Warriors and lots of Stealths, I say seems to because I cant find a definative answer as to what this uber list is.
Now I like my own list and I think it works extremely well, I am of the opinion that Hybrid balanced lists are far superior in every aspect to either Mech or Static.
So heres my question what do you people think is the most effective list and why, this is not meant to be an opportunity to dis Mech, Hybrid or Static but more an exercise to try to establish the strengths and weakness of each type of list and also try to establish what this super list is exactly and discuss its plus and minus points.
Please lets not turn this one into a flame war eh.
 

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Shrubs for the Blood God
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No such list exists and anyone who proposes said uber list is the most ignorant n00b (God I hate that term) in the history of civilization.

Each army in this game can conform to multiple play styles. I don't care what you put up, theres a army and a list out there that can trump you with ease.

I know why you put this post up, I have been following the debates and I'm as frustrated by some of the things that have been said as you (for different reasons but still frustraited all the same), but your not going to get the results you want. Every levelheaded player is going to say the same thing as I "No such list exists" and they'll move on without posting, the only replies your gonna get are from the same people weighing in on the same old tired arguments and your just going to get more frustrated than before. Walk away now before your sanity is eroded beyond repair.

There is an applicable saying that applies to this (and this is NOT aimed at anyone or anygroup in particular, it just fits) The saying goes:

"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you through experience."
 

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Iv'e been really agitated about this whole "10/10" list as well. I believe the variation in the missions, levels, and other armies makes this notion absurd.

I would like to take a moment to rip apart the 18 stealth/ 6 firewarrior list.:argh: Out of fairness I will then give a quick example of my current list which I have not lost w/ yet and what I feel its weaknesses are.

Anyway, as for the 18 stealth/ 6 firewarrior list....

1. If the mission level is any thing but Gama these troops will have to cross a table and be subject to all sorts of different hazards before they can bring thier fire to bear. To those who will cry about the stealth armour protecting them I give this example: I Once had Ultramarine Legend Tigurius use his Fear of the Darkness (24" range, all units in range test morale @ -2) and chase my stealths and two Crisis Teams off the board. My point being the Stealth ability will not save them from all manner of attacks.

2. If you lose 1st turn a fast close combat army will rape stealths, especially if you infiltrate them. No question. Need examples? Tyranid genestealer army. Any good Dark Eldar player will laugh at you. I know a damn good one....he does.

3. This one isn't tactical, but bugs me most of all. ITS UNFLUFFY! In my experience I've seen some really unfluffy armies and this one ranks up there among the worst. I realize not everyone cares about fluff but I do. Its makes armies more characterful and unique and for me adds to the enjoyment of the game.

I would like to add that I have never used a list like this and these are just my opinions.
( I hear that everybody has one)

Now on to my current list. I play a mech army w/ a mainstay of three firewarrior squads in fish ( one w Aun'shi) and three hammerheads. I am currently involved in a 2000 pt junglefight ( 50% of board covered w/ forests ) Take and Hold tournament at my store and have won my first 3 games, 2 by massacre. I will fight the championship tommorow.
My list includes the units listed above and:

10 man kroot squad
3 man XV8 team w/ Twin plasma and drones
6 Stealths divided into 2 elite slots
5 man pathfinder team w/ EMP's

I feel this army is very balanced and it did very well before the current tournament too. I haven't lost w/ this list yet (about 7 or 8 games) but it is still far from a 10/10 list. Here are the situations my list have trouble with:

1. Omega level games w/ escalation would be trouble as the army would arrive piecemeal and probably get shot to pieces. Thankfully no one at my local store likes Omega level!

2. Heavy weapon laden armies. For the second game of this current tourny I fought the earlier mentioned Dark Eldar player and he brought a total of 16 Dark lances and 13 blasters. Thats 29 STR 8 shots! At the end of the game I only had 1 develfish left w/o a burst cannon. Do you wanna know what won me the game? All those underrated firewarriors sitting on the objective w/ Aun'shi and the kroot.

3. This one doesn't apply as I feel my list is very fluffy. My troops all have photon grenades (which some would say they should never have but Ill never leave Taun w/o them),
my elites are bonded, my stealth shas'ui has a markerlight (which I'll admit is useless, but FLUFFY!), and my army does not rely on any one unit to win the game (although my hammerheads usually account for 50% or more of the kills:) )

Well these are my feelings and I hope to see more action in this thread but I gotta wrap this up and get to work.

Phase Out....
 

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what is your list oni,it could give me inspiration about mine.
well to make a something near a 10/10 in 1500 point you need:
3 hammerhead with railgun,they rock period
some kroots,they are good
4 to 7 crisis,less will have you dearly lacking low ap agaisnt armies with power armour which you will face in tournies
stealth,im not saying you need 12 stealth or more you can have a great list with 6.Even though rikimaru will disagree with me on stealth i find that they are invaluable.
2 commanders,they are a great place to get some sweet low ap and accurate weaponry
 

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well sure there may not be a 10/10 list but when we are sharing good unit combos like you just did players may be inspired and try and succed! i playd hybrid before but it was rather boring cuz they were som slow. som now i olay pure mech. dont have money for a third HH but i play with 3 12 man FW i DF lots of suits and 2 HH never really liked kroot but i have a whole stack of them ready for painting.. should try a unit of 20 and see how it works.

thinking of trying your XV8 cfg. i use the good but rather boring fireknife with a TL ML and target lock friend :D

anyone have good ideas to use XV15 to the limits??

think if we stop complaining and give facts this could replace the mechanised thread :p
 

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The deep down truth
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
svalene said:
what is your list oni,it could give me inspiration about mine.
well to make a something near a 10/10 in 1500 point you need:
3 hammerhead with railgun,they rock period
some kroots,they are good
4 to 7 crisis,less will have you dearly lacking low ap agaisnt armies with power armour which you will face in tournies
stealth,im not saying you need 12 stealth or more you can have a great list with 6.Even though rikimaru will disagree with me on stealth i find that they are invaluable.
2 commanders,they are a great place to get some sweet low ap and accurate weaponry
Now you see this is just what i am talking about, svelene I like Stealths they have a place in many Tau lists (not mine but thts just my preference) but the fact that Stealths just have to be included is just wrong, my list performs against 90% of enemys but struggles against nids (in fact I posted a thread about this very problem) so that straight away makes it a less than perfect list but I defy anyone to make a list that includes Stealths that performs better for my play style.

So Svelene to sum up I have nothing against Stealths what I do hate is unbalanced lists that perform well against certain armies mascarading as crush all comer lists.

Phase thats a fantastic post, one of the best I have seen for a long time, I will reply to it but I am going to give it the consideration it deserves, I dont agree with it all but its well thought out and has a lot of relevent points, good work dude expect some rep coming your way.

Oni I am waiting for your input because as Astroth put very very well this thread could become a very valuable resource as to what units and configs for units work well, in fact the 9/10 list could very well develop here and Oni no matter what we have disagreed on in the past i value your input so share it dude.

Just think if we can keep it civil and nor diss someone for using whatever list or tactic they favour, and giving new and unusual tactics the consideration and open mindedness they desereve we may all benefit.
 

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With Oden On Our Side...
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Quick little chart on armies. Not really sure what else to say.

Army of few, but Strong models = Army of Medium numbers and models. Why? The medium army has the numbers to take causualties and the greater number of attacks. With the Strong army, every loss hurts. However, the Strong army may prevail because thier units can take more hits and dish out more damage.

Army of few, but strong models = Horde army. Why? Same principal as above, one can make more attacks and has the greater numbers, meaning losing 1 or 2 doesn't matter. However, the hordes are generally weaker individual models. Example here: GK vs. IG. For every 3 Grey Knights, you can have a SQUAD of Guardsmen with an upgraded Weapon or two.

Basically, every type of army has it's fault. Armies with stronger units lack the numbers to easily beat the armies of more numerous, yet weaker troops. At the same time, the weaker troops lack the hitting power to take down the Strong troops in great number.

...Don't worry, I'm not really sure what I'm saying either.
 

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rikimaru said:
So Svelene to sum up I have nothing against Stealths what I do hate is unbalanced lists that perform well against certain armies mascarading as crush all comer lists.
well then you basically hate my list
 

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i dont think the idea of a 10/10 list is a acurate one. Their are definatly list the will perform well against certain armies but if you have a list that is tooled for IG you will probably get crushed by chaos space marines. So I think a 8/10 is possible to face all armies but not a 10/10.
 

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well first of i think it is that kind of post we would like not to se here!

have you guys read this? http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leebj/index.html

its written by the TAU guru T0nkatruckdriver who has diapered all of the sudden.

but i think it is full of interesting facts. like the how many shots will kill a marine.

im going to play in a turney 27-29/1 and i will bring tau but the amount of 3+ saves is rather much 33/50 players has 3+. but i think my luck will help me :D
 

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WOW...his list is really close to mine...only difference being that he has a shas'ui and a markerlight on his fire warriors,uses a bit more points than i do on the 3 hammerhead and instead of having a team of 3 crisis i have a team of 2 crisis but i got another bodyguard on my shas'el.Makes me happy knowing i got a list very close to a guy who is going to do a GT final.sweet :w00t:
 

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Maybe its just me but the guy in that post didn't sound too confident himself about his list. And he begins w/ saying he hopes to place in the top 20. Wouldn't a 10/10 list owner be a little more confident? Or do other armies have 10/10 compositions as well? If this is the case than by applying a 10/10 title to these lists your saying that this is the optimal way to play the army and I whole-heartedly disagree w/ that notion for the reasons in my previos posts.

Also my problem isn't w/ the abundance of stealths as much as it is the lack of firewarriors. I lost most of my first games w/ Tau and was of the mind that firewarriors suck too but this couldn't be further from the truth. As you learn their many applications and how to conserve them I believe they become the foundation of a good Tau army like they're meant to be. Where people go wrong is thinking that all those STR 5 shots are all they need to secure victory, then one enemy squad runs through the whole line in succesion.

If these lists include more firewarriors I'd have no problems. I can visualize a Tau commander dispatching lots of stealths to hold the enemy at bay untill the actual cadre arrives.

While I'm on the topic of stealths; I love 'em! As mentioned earlier I use "one" squad split into two slots (kind of like IG do w/ thier squads in cityfights) and ussually infiltrate them w/ a kroot squad to form a fire base thats hitting the enemy on turn one. My opponent has no choice but to try and kill these troops or they will continue to rain death on him. This usually takes pressure off of the rest of my army and if he overwhelms these squads I'm still not out too many VP's.

If any of you have ever read the Enders Game series of novels by Orson Scott Card (my favorite author) I compare my stealths to the squad Ender assigns Bean to lead. They are my wildcard unit that can work well w/ any other unit in the army and also on thier own when I can't focus too much of my army on a remote section of the table. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about....you should.

Phase Out....
 

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Phase Out, the best of the best fight in the GT final. Orks don't even get a chance to enter it. The tau denial army is one of the best, but it's no match for the best of the best. For example, assault cannon heavy marines, 9 oblit iron warriors, siren daemon bomb, the ulthwe council of doom etc.

Oh, and I just checked your previous post, and it's clear you don't play tau the same way I do, you don't think like I do. Crossing stealths across the board is an absurd concept to me. Nor do you face as nasty lists as I do.
 

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In my opinion you should try to preserve your stealths and walking up the middl of the board ia a bad way to do that.
 

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I'm sorry Onlainari, I didn't realize that the players you face were much better than the ones I play against and had access to units no one else does. :w00t: Your post was a complete cop out directed at undermining my credebility as a player. I've faced many a dangerous lists and some of the players I beat (and lose to) have been playing tabletop wargames longer than you or I have been alive. So, take your arrogance elsewhere.

As for GT finalists....The best of the best from where?....PLEASE. And if this list can't compete w/ the best of the best than it has no right to claim a 10/10 status.

As for the stealths "walking up the middle of the board", Saint102, I believe you missed my point. There are several forms of attacks from various armies that do not need line of sight effectively nullifying the stealth ability and jump shoot jump. Eventually this list will encounter an army that employs these to great effect and w/ so many points invested in 18 troops it will struggle to keep up.

Onlainari, Ive been playing Tau for about a year now and I gleened much of what I know from yourself, ToNkA TrUcK DrIvEr, and others including Rikimaru (Tenchu series is one of my favorite games too), so its a shame we have to belitte each other like this.

Although it is nice to have a little of your divine light shine in my direction.;)

Phase Out....
 

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Astroth said:
well first of i think it is that kind of post we would like not to se here!

have you guys read this? http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leebj/index.html

its written by the TAU guru T0nkatruckdriver who has diapered all of the sudden.

but i think it is full of interesting facts. like the how many shots will kill a marine.

im going to play in a turney 27-29/1 and i will bring tau but the amount of 3+ saves is rather much 33/50 players has 3+. but i think my luck will help me :D
I have a question about the FoF or double FoF tactic. Usually to create a more effective barrier the drones on the Devilfish detach and spread out laterally. Is it possible that the marine squad could assault the drones and earn a massacure result, and then consolidate D6 inches into your infantry?

This is the specific link. http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leebj/FoF.html
 

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Phase Out said:
If any of you have ever read the Enders Game series of novels by Orson Scott Card (my favorite author) I compare my stealths to the squad Ender assigns Bean to lead. They are my wildcard unit that can work well w/ any other unit in the army and also on thier own when I can't focus too much of my army on a remote section of the table. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about....you should.Phase Out....

i don't see why you use the stealth as your wildcard unit...is it because it says it in the codex?the stealth are as much a wildcard unit as the crisis,they just go somewhere shoot down a hail of fire and create a breach in the enenmy line
 

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StevenSane said:
I have a question about the FoF or double FoF tactic. Usually to create a more effective barrier the drones on the Devilfish detach and spread out laterally. Is it possible that the marine squad could assault the drones and earn a massacure result, and then consolidate D6 inches into your infantry?

This is the specific link. http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leebj/FoF.html

yes i think thats correct. so keep ypur drones attached!

ive found use to drones from DF usefull to stop enemy infantry to jump out of and slughter my lines. just let them go and jump behind the viechles acces point (works best on eldar viechles or other with only one acces point. rather funny when you destroy the viechle and the intire crew diec beacuse of 2 drones! ;D

one question: does the two drones from the devil fish count as 2 new units or just one?
 
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