Page 43 must be purified by flame!
Burn the heretic!!
Burn the heretic!!
The Passion and the Sweep
Sometimes I seethe over how GW gimped "The Passion" with how they worded the itallics on p.43 of the rulebook.
It almost seems like it was written just for the sake of stripping the ability from the sisters.
- Orks get the ability to "roll" for the +2 init for free.
- Marines with Furius charge are already getting +1 ot Str and +1 to Init on the hit.
- But Sisters have to piss away a whole faith point for their Initiative boost, AND they have to roll for it, AND they don't get to use it for the sweep.
In effect, p.43 ruined that act.
OK. Fine, there's 4 others that we can use, but let's just focus upon the Passion for now. THere is nothing written into that act that tells us that its effect stop at any point during the assault phase. So it's like p.43 took a crap on that act, reducing it to something that some other armies get for free.
But p.43 buried most of its value.
I lament.
It almost seems like it was written just for the sake of stripping the ability from the sisters.
- Orks get the ability to "roll" for the +2 init for free.
- Marines with Furius charge are already getting +1 ot Str and +1 to Init on the hit.
- But Sisters have to piss away a whole faith point for their Initiative boost, AND they have to roll for it, AND they don't get to use it for the sweep.
In effect, p.43 ruined that act.
OK. Fine, there's 4 others that we can use, but let's just focus upon the Passion for now. THere is nothing written into that act that tells us that its effect stop at any point during the assault phase. So it's like p.43 took a crap on that act, reducing it to something that some other armies get for free.
But p.43 buried most of its value.
I lament.
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but it's not an inate ability like furious charge or the ork thing, it's pretty much a minor psy power and as far as they go it is a pretty good one. also keep in mind marines pay for furious charge so a basic guy is 15-17 points however a siter is only 11 and gets acsees to allthose powers for free.
hmmmm I don't really see the problem in paying a faithpoint to get more Ini. It's a fair point that Orks and Marines get the ablility as well for less but orks are a rather combat like army and you would expect something of the sort plus Marines are just "broken" superhumans (Marine loather here 
). Sisters on the other hand are just regular human girls slapped with power armour (fair anough they had excessive training etc yada yada but in the end they are just Gaurd that can shoot without missing by half a mile). It seems fair to me that a faith point is used to gain some more Ini.
). Sisters on the other hand are just regular human girls slapped with power armour (fair anough they had excessive training etc yada yada but in the end they are just Gaurd that can shoot without missing by half a mile). It seems fair to me that a faith point is used to gain some more Ini.agreed, battle sisters are simply humans clad in power armour and are trained marksmen and are therefore equipped with a better weapon then there flak armoured compadres.
Agreed. If you think about it, the basic sister is one of the best buys for an infantry unit out there. Power armor, BS4, bolter, and faith points for flexibility. True, their lower str/tough are major weaknesses (esp the toughness) but it's still a great deal.
And btw, faith points are not psyik powers.
And btw, faith points are not psyik powers.
Not picking on you Laplace, but I started this thread with the intention of whining, and by God, I'm going follow through with it.
I think we're fooled by what a horrible deal the Stormtrooper and Guradsman is. But a Marine, a Marine Scout, and a Necron are all better, point-for-point. The vet upgrade also kills the deal. When you average the VSS into a squad of 10, the price jumps to 12.4 per model, while all she really is doing is contributing faith at a price of approx 10 points per faith point. (I pro-rate it as costing 10, all things considered).
I don't think he was trying to say they were.Laplace said:And btw, faith points are not psyik powers.
I'd say Sisters are in the middle, really.basic sister is one of the best buys for an infantry unit
I think we're fooled by what a horrible deal the Stormtrooper and Guradsman is. But a Marine, a Marine Scout, and a Necron are all better, point-for-point. The vet upgrade also kills the deal. When you average the VSS into a squad of 10, the price jumps to 12.4 per model, while all she really is doing is contributing faith at a price of approx 10 points per faith point. (I pro-rate it as costing 10, all things considered).
Admit it, you are picking on me, but that's ok.:yes:Red Zinfandel said:Not picking on you Laplace, but I started this thread with the intention of whining, and by God, I'm going follow through with it.
Point taken, but it is simplistic at looking at unit vs unit comparisons (my fault partly for implying this in the first place). You have to look at how the unit itself is designed and how it fits into an army.Red Zinfandel said:I'd say Sisters are in the middle, really.
I think we're fooled by what a horrible deal the Stormtrooper and Guradsman is. But a Marine, a Marine Scout, and a Necron are all better, point-for-point. The vet upgrade also kills the deal. When you average the VSS into a squad of 10, the price jumps to 12.4 per model, while all she really is doing is contributing faith at a price of approx 10 points per faith point. (I pro-rate it as costing 10, all things considered).
Take regular SM for example. They are tougher than sisters, but the extra strength does them little good unless they are in cc. Regular Sisters by default are not meant to be cc unless they have to be (and if they are they can get some decent bonuses). But in shooting, they are identical in terms of armor saves and BS. The big plus for SM is really the unit rules. A SM squad can be small and have a nice heavy weapon in there while the minimum number of sisters Troops is 10 and their heavys aren't that great.
However, in a shooting match, assuming you can position the sisters in a way so that they can rapid fire into the marine squad (big assumption I know) one Divine Guidance seriously tips the balance into the sister's favor. Cheap sisters can very easily pay for themselves.
Or take Necrons. Their big minus is that they have no transport option save the Monolith warping (or Veil). So for the most part they will be able to be shot at quite a bit while marching forward. If in a pure shooting match of sisters vs Necrons of equal points at max range I'd put my money on the sisters (given that they can burn faith points). Every death to Divine Guidance means no WBB for them (unless a rez orb is nearby).
I'm not saying they are the best unit out there or even the best generalized unit (unlike a SM). I am saying is that given their cost and their faith points, they have a nice flexibility to handle the situation. Divine guidance, or burn 2 faith points in cc and you get +2 str and invuln saves (tell me that won't hurt). If you need to rally, make them fearless. And that is what makes them a good buy IMO.
Sorry, your wrong. i used to play necrons and they would still get WBB. read the rule, it says cc weapons that ignore armour saves, not shooting weapons. So, unless you've got S8 boltersLaplace said:Every death to Divine Guidance means no WBB for them (unless a rez orb is nearby).
you wont be ignoring WBB on necrons.
Right, a battle sister costs 11 points, for that, you get a 3+ save, BS4, a bolter as a basic weapon, the ability to shrug of psychic powers. Look at what an inquisitorial storm trooper gets for 1 point less. It's obscene.
Battle sisters are already among the most cost effective troops around. Faith abilities are not supposed to be their prime selling point, they're good enough that they don't need a special rule as their prime selling point. Faith abilities are an additional bonus which can help you out when times get rough.
Does an ork have a 3+ save? Nope..
Does a marine with furious charge cost 11 points basic? Nope..
Battle sisters are already among the most cost effective troops around. Faith abilities are not supposed to be their prime selling point, they're good enough that they don't need a special rule as their prime selling point. Faith abilities are an additional bonus which can help you out when times get rough.
Does an ork have a 3+ save? Nope..
Does a marine with furious charge cost 11 points basic? Nope..
thats what i sed but you worded it better--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right, a battle sister costs 11 points, for that, you get a 3+ save, BS4, a bolter as a basic weapon, the ability to shrug of psychic powers. Look at what an inquisitorial storm trooper gets for 1 point less. It's obscene.
Battle sisters are already among the most cost effective troops around. Faith abilities are not supposed to be their prime selling point, they're good enough that they don't need a special rule as their prime selling point. Faith abilities are an additional bonus which can help you out when times get rough.
Does an ork have a 3+ save? Nope..
Does a marine with furious charge cost 11 points basic? Nope..
red zinfandel was right i wasn't saying they were i sed they are LIKE minor powers but better since we have an almost infinate supply and they can't kill us + we don't pay for em and they can't be countered.And btw, faith points are not psyik powers.
damn right that is what this site is for, go for gold mate!I started this thread with the intention of whining, and by God, I'm going follow through with it.
I completely dissagree with Zinfandel on all points except his right to whine simply cos I dont want to buck the trend of me dissagreeing with him pretty much accross the board.
That asside, I only really use 2 acts of faith, mostly devine guidance and occasionally I like, particularly the cannoness to have an inv save.
Other acts of faith are less impressive, The passion is clealy designed to give a close combat edge to sisters, problem with it is that the only troops that it is usefull against have I4,5 or 6 and mostly, whilst hitting sooner will give a sister squad a bit of an edge, they will still end up getting shredded (we are talking marines/csm here)
HOWEVER, there are armies where the I bonus is usefull, think Eldar, in close combat sisters have a slight edge due to powered armour, but the I bonus really tips the thing in our favour. Of course this only applis to certain units, but it does have its place.
Finally I have this bizare mental image of Plague_00 pulling off an act of faith only to sulk cos his sisters proved to be imune to that particular quasi psychic power!
That asside, I only really use 2 acts of faith, mostly devine guidance and occasionally I like, particularly the cannoness to have an inv save.
Other acts of faith are less impressive, The passion is clealy designed to give a close combat edge to sisters, problem with it is that the only troops that it is usefull against have I4,5 or 6 and mostly, whilst hitting sooner will give a sister squad a bit of an edge, they will still end up getting shredded (we are talking marines/csm here)
HOWEVER, there are armies where the I bonus is usefull, think Eldar, in close combat sisters have a slight edge due to powered armour, but the I bonus really tips the thing in our favour. Of course this only applis to certain units, but it does have its place.
Finally I have this bizare mental image of Plague_00 pulling off an act of faith only to sulk cos his sisters proved to be imune to that particular quasi psychic power!
(sorry to break the trend and agree) ...that's exactly what I'm saying.Cheredanine said:That asside, I only really use 2 acts of faith, mostly devine guidance and occasionally I like, particularly the cannoness to have an inv save.
Other acts of faith are less impressive
DG and Spirit get all the traffic. The Emperor must have noticed by now.
GW sucked all the fun (and value) out of it. They could even have restricted the INitiative to be used either defensively or offensively for the sweep. But they chose to gimp it completely.
"Furious Charge" is just that- a furious charge. It's not called "Furious Phase". And "Waaagh" is also charge-oriented. There is a visible intention that both of those traits have to do with charging, and therefore their effects should not extend far beyond the initial thrust of the charge.
But if you look closely, "The Passion" is quite a bit different than Furious and Waaagh.
- It's not charge-dependent.
- It's not free, (costing 10-point per attempt, which has a chance to fail)
- It may not be used on a large squad,
(making its 'per-model' expense comperable to Furious Charge)
- It may not be used inconjunction with HAND (thus far reducing its effects as compared to Furious Charge).
- It was clearly intended to last through the Assault Phase.
I don't think GW considered any of this at all, and if they had, it's possible that the difference would have been accomodated. Initiative 5 is really NOT a big deal when your WS and S are both 3, so the ability to defend against the sweep with a 5 seems appropriate.
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