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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been playing this game as the tau for some time now, and the only army I have a problem with is the space marines. The few friends that I play with seem to have a few problems with the space marines themselves, but my buddy who plays them says that we are really the only ones.

The space marines simply seem to be overpowered in my mind.

To start it off: The assassins that he can choose. I can't stand playing against a single unit that can cost 120 points and under, yet can easily take out 300 points a game at the least. They can do the equivilent of deep strike without error, then move, shoot AND ASSAULT the turn the decide to jump in. This means they can run up to my broadsides after shooting some of his potentially damaging weapons and get in to melee. The assassin has a 4+ invunerable save and can jump away, shoot and charge back into battle every turn (with 50% chance to fail). Meanwhile I can't take out this 2W unit that is always in assault beacuse I can't shoot it. I can't keep kroot guarding the entire army.

Secondly, the space marines are just way too versitile. They can use SO MANY different units, with SO MANY different options, they can field an army with balistics that match if not surpass mine. They can stick their str 9 ap 2 laz-cannons all over the place, and with balistic skill 4, that gives them a definite edge. Sure, railguns have 10 str, but they are up against armor 14 land raiders, while the str 9 weapons are up against armor 13 hammerheads. Both glance on 4s. The range rarely comes into play, as the laz-cannons have plenty, railguns just have excessive range.

I'll say tau have some fine weaponry, but the space marines have some stuff that comes pretty damn close. That bs 4 really does make a difference.

I'm really OK with terminators and dreadnots, though I realize they are extremley powerful. They can be countered by crisis suites, even though they are just as threatening.

I'm not quite sure if I'm just a loser bitching about things that I don't understand, and I'm not saying that the space marines are so broken that they are going to win every time. I'm saying that the space marines have an edge. My friend is constantly pulling rules out of chapter approved, and other codexes that give him yet another unit or option that will help him a little more. I'll happily accept advice and voices from the other side. Try to keep the Miller-bashing down, though.

Thanks
 

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Oh my God slickis! That must be one of the funniest replies I have ever seen here on LO!!!
 

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Hahahahaha, good one slickis *cant stop laughing* lol
Btw, the SM list arent that good, its one of the most basic list around and SM arent the only guys that can have lascannons in every squad, The IG can have more lascannons and still have points over for some nasty tanks, which also got a lascannon or two.
 

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what it sound like you have to do is simply remake your army list to do what you want it to do, and that’s fight SM. get alot of heavy stuff in as well as alot a basic fire warriors. SM are not cheep, they cost quite alot of points to field the basic models. and SM big drawback IS that they are so basic. your guys focus on long range combat, well what do SM focus on, other than some specific chapters, nothing. so they may possible be more versatile, but they cost more per models, and they dont really specialize in anything in particular. so all you need to do is change your tactics or army list.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
First off: OUCH, slickis. That was miller-bashing the extreme.

Secondly, it seems to me that space marines can build their army list to do whatever they want it to do. If they want to outshoot the tau, they can do it with 6" less range. They have weapons with 4 str instead of 5, does not make a damn difference, since they still need 3+ to wound. The difference in bs and armor save does make a big impact on the game. Laz cannons have str 9 instead of 10? They're up against armor 13 instead of armor 12, they still glance on a 4+. Its easier and cheaper to get a laz cannon then a railgun.

And Vindkall, I'm not talking pure balistics, anyway. but if you do think its close when it comes down to shooting, Then the melee will certainly tip the scale for space marines.

And, everyone, at least acknowlege the assassin thing! I just can't see that damn thing being fair.
 

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you do know that any imperial army gets them, not just space marines. And I do think that they are fair, they are good, but they do cost 95+ points. They are good but they aren’t THAT good. Name me one assassin skill that’s is horrible outrageous for its point cost.
 

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I haven't played against an assasin, but I can sympathize with alex there.

I don't even know what all the assasin rules are, but if they can have regular movement and shooting, and deepstrike without error, then it does sound like one assasin can easily get into your rear and tear about your vulnerable stuff. There's a reason that regular deepstrike stuff has such a margin for error, if it didn't then nobody's rear would be safe. For an army like the tau that is so dependent on shooting and so vulnerable in CC, that's an even bigger issue.

On the other hand, like I said, I don't know what the assasin rules are, and 95-120 pts, whatever it is, doesn't sound cheap.


As for SMS being unfair, well I agree that they're more versatile, but almost any army is more versatile than the tau, it's not just the rines. And I wouldn't say that the rines versatility really weakens their ability to specialize, they definetely aren't the best CC army, but they're darn good. Quality armor, high stats and power weapons make sure that they can compete with the best of other armies. And they can be one of the best shooting armies, without a doubt. Lots of room for heavy weapons, the high BS to use em well, and they're tough so in a straight on slug fest they can take more punishment than others.

I don't see how people can argue this, pretty much every 40k player I know recognizes that SMs are the noob army. I'm not saying they're not cool, or unbeatable, but they can do everything really well.
 

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alex, i didnt mean any offence with that picture post, just a bit of fun... but this post is serious

i would strongly advise you edit your above post, as posting GW copyrighted material (such as the rules for an assassin) is stricly prohibited

heh im still laughin at the pic myself :lol:
 

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GRRRRRRR...

Man do I hate people who ***** and moan about "This army is too good at shooting"
"This army is too good at close Combat" Plain and simple... Every Army can beat any other army. Space Marines are powerful, but they can be whipped like anyone else. Ever heard of tactics? Learn how to play your army before you start complaining...

Space Marines are supposed to be the best. They're genetically engineered super soldiers, who live, eat sleep, and breathe battle...

Let me tell you a little secret about SM. Yes they usually are a noob army, for simple reasons (quality well rounded troops so you can focus on learning the game, expensive points cost means fewer models need to be purchased.) but they are an army that is simple to learn but difficult to master. They are flexible but figuring out how to optimise them for specific situations can get a little tricky. Hell, I've been playing for 10+ years, but I don't win every time I use my Marines... I win most of the time, but it's because of tactics, and keeping your mission in mind at all times. Not just getting into assault as fast as possible.

And as far as Lascannons go, or any other heavy weapon like that. They can kill one guy a turn... If the marines move the heavy weapon cant fire. Tau have range on Marines (and every other army) stay out of range of their boltguns while you plaster them with your weapons. Sure one guy a turn may get vaporized by the lascannon but because they shot at a footsoldier and not your hammerhead its' for the greater good. By staying out of the SM range and staying in your range you are going to cause far more casualties shooting then they will. Infact you'll probably Irritate the Sm player so much he'll move his Marines forward so he can get into range, at which time you will have a free round of shooting at them, thinning his ranks even further.

(Note that this applies to "Vanilla Marines" those Rhino Rush armies are total cheese...I suspect that those are the Marines you are having trouble with...)

When it comes down to it. learn your armies strengths and stick to 'em. avoid situations that would exploit your armies weakness... have fun and stop bitching about petty crap.

A side note: No Space Marine commander worth his powered armor would resort to using Assassins unless it's an incredibly extreme situation. Let your Marines win the day, don't count on somebody else. It's a matter of martial pride. Any Marine Commander who uses Assassins on every mission should be investigated by the Inquisition, and probably shot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
DAMN IT! I'M BITCHING ABOUT BALENCE, DON'T CONSIDER STORY A REASON TO MAKE A GAME UNBALENCED!!! I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TAU FIREWARRIORS WITH BS 4, BUT ELITES HAVE BS 3, IF IT MADE THE GAME BALENCED!!! THAT ARGUMENT ENRAGES ME!!!

I also understand that was just a supportting argument. But anyway, I'm not saying that their ability to have lascannons makes them invincible, I'm saying that if you consider railguns an advantage for the tau, its really not. Since, when it comes down to heavy support, the tau can be outshot by lascannons. That was my argument.

I'm not saying that the marines are an unstoppable army either. I'm saying that I've checking out their codex quite a bit, I've played quite a few games with them. I'll admit that first off, I've played under 20 significant games agianst them, and most of the games were under 2,200.
 

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Originally posted by alexmillerl1029@Oct 10 2003, 14:47
DON'T CONSIDER STORY A REASON TO MAKE A GAME UNBALENCED!!!
everythingstatic is right. and the bottom line is that the space marines are simply stronger in the end. i'm sorry if that makes you feel bad but just use everything at your disposal to beat them. and there is more than one army that has this problem (if thats what you want to call it). you just need to put out more effort if you have trouble with them.
 

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Just make sure your out of range and no problem!! But use special things like Drones to draw fire for a while as you wait to volley pulse rifles and carbines. You also have a chance of pinning the Marines, VERY LITTLE THOUGH...... But yeah the marines are too damn powerful......
 

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If you want to tick off marines, use those awesome mobile crisis suits with plasma guns and whatnot, and hope around the table plugging them whenever you can. Use broad-sides with shield drones. Use a couple pathfinders with railrifles (marine killers that cause pinning), and they can damage a rhino on a 50/50. They were printed in white dwarf about 3 months ago.

If you can't hit marines with your railguns, use marker lights with target locks (or whatever let's you shoot independently of your firewarrior squads). In the games that I have seen, gun drones suck (they have crap leadership, and they're not that damaging), though they do cause pinning.

If you're really insane, take an ion-cannon on your hammerhead instead of a railgun to whack some marines.

By the way, how can you complain about needing a 4+ to glance/pen a vehicle? That's pretty good!

Oh, and whoever uses an assassin every game should be beaten savagely. I have 2 assassins, and have only used each of them in one game.
 
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