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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok. here's the deal. I have personally NEVER seen the flamer used on crisis, nor in battle reports. plus there's hardly any tactics for using it well. but in my browsing (on "The Guide to Mech Tau" site) there is a table showing how many marines need to be under the template to as effective as/more effective than another crisis weapon. it went like so:

Missile pod - 1.66
Burst Cannon - 2
Fusion Blaster - 2.5
Plasma Rifle - 2.5(Single Shot)/5(Rapid Fire)
(table by "Spooky" on total tau)

this makes the flamer the cheapest AND most effective weapon available to crisis at a 6"-8" range. the question is: Does this make the Plasma Rifle, Flamer, MT (nicknamed 'Blowtorch' config) a good idea?
 

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squall14 said:
ok. here's the deal. I have personally NEVER seen the flamer used on crisis, nor in battle reports. plus there's hardly any tactics for using it well. but in my browsing (on "The Guide to Mech Tau" site) there is a table showing how many marines need to be under the template to as effective as/more effective than another crisis weapon. it went like so:

Missile pod - 1.66
Burst Cannon - 2
Fusion Blaster - 2.5
Plasma Rifle - 2.5(Single Shot)/5(Rapid Fire)
(table by "Spooky" on total tau)

this makes the flamer the cheapest AND most effective weapon available to crisis at a 6"-8" range. the question is: Does this make the Plasma Rifle, Flamer, MT (nicknamed 'Blowtorch' config) a good idea?
Why would you bother, the MP can take out two Marines if your lucky and its effective against lightly armed vehicles etc, Fusion is brilliant it kills anything it hits and is awesome anti armour and has a 12" effective range.
With the MP or Fusion coupled to Plasma you have enough to kill 3 marines a turn and the MP is more of a match for the range of the 24" Plasma shot and the Fusion is a good match at rapid fire range.
You really do not want to be in 6" range of a Marine unit with something that weak that offers saves (I would only use the MP and Plasma at range for the same reason MP offer saves to Marines), the only benefit and its a very small one is the flamer negates cover saves.
If you want to get to within 6" of any enemy with a flamer feel free me I would not be that confident of its effectiveness, I use the Helios because I know I will usually kill what I am hitting.
So no its not a good idea, yes its cheap but its also not very good and value is related to effectiveness.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
but the idea is that you can flame from between 6" & 8" and then assault move 6" away and out of assault range of the footslogger marines.

anyway, if you're really scared of being assaulted by the remaining 2-4 marines, then you should use the almighty circular drone tactic and get your shas'el out of there. that's if they haven't routed by then.
 

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squall14 said:
but the idea is that you can flame from between 6" & 8" and then assault move 6" away and out of assault range of the footslogger marines.

anyway, if you're really scared of being assaulted by the remaining 2-4 marines, then you should use the almighty circular drone tactic and get your shas'el out of there. that's if they haven't routed by then.
MMMM think we will ignore the obvious Drone comment, and get to the relevent points, the flamer template is not much use at 8" or 6" for that matter, to be effective you have to cover as many models as possible, to do that you have to be very very close and with a 6" assault move your going to be lucky to get out of range if your close enough to make the flamer effective
I do not want to be that close with an XV8 regardless of any protection it may have and lets face it with a Flamer and 2 plasma shots at a 9 man squad you will be lucky to kill 4 and normal Marine squad LDS is min 8 so not much chance of routing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
let's move on.

consider i have 3 shas'ui, all with flamers, Plasma rifles and Multi-trackers. if i get close enough, i can easily cover 4 models a template, plus the 6 plasma rifle shots.

flamers:
12 shots
12 hits (negates our low BS of 3!)
6 wounds
2 dead

Plasma Rifles:
6 shots
3 hits
2.5 wounds
2.5 dead (no armour saves)

considering there's only 4 marines under each template (considering that they space out), that punches a nice hole in any small tactical squad, or full squad for that matter. plus the fact that in the new codex you can twin link Flamers (re-roll to-wound rolls).
 

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squall14 said:
let's move on.

consider i have 3 shas'ui, all with flamers, Plasma rifles and Multi-trackers. if i get close enough, i can easily cover 4 models a template, plus the 6 plasma rifle shots.

flamers:
12 shots
12 hits (negates our low BS of 3!)
6 wounds
2 dead

Plasma Rifles:
6 shots
3 hits
2.5 wounds
2.5 dead (no armour saves)

considering there's only 4 marines under each template (considering that they space out), that punches a nice hole in any small tactical squad, or full squad for that matter. plus the fact that in the new codex you can twin link Flamers (re-roll to-wound rolls).
3 Shas,Ui with Plasma and Fusion at 12" 6 AP2 and 3 AP1 shots 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound = 4 dead (usually more) so about the same, but I can hit and kill termies, tough MC/IC, armour (ANY ARMOUR) etc etc all of which the Flamer can do very little or nothing against.

Yes the new codex may well offer twin linked flamers (still wont use them) but it still does not negate the simple fact that XV8's should not be that close unless they are guaranteed to kill their points equiv or at least be reasonably certain they can kill enough to avoid being chased down or slaughtered in CC and Flamers just dont do that at least at the moment (new codex we will wait and see).

Anyway its your funeral if you want to use Flamers go ahead, but the only real way to find out if they work is by playtesting, (stats are not much use really) I have had my say and its only my opinion.
I have used them(when I knew no better) and they were crap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
but 4-5 marines a turn will make a nice clean-up unit practically (or statistically) parallel to a Helios squad, amd cheaper. plus i will be smart enough not to use these against termies. helios is for marines and termies. Blowtorch is for marines and scouts (does well against both!)
 

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The problem with that Squall, is that most people don't consider Elite Crisis Suits clean up units. Most people use the Crisis suits for hard hitting punch and leave the cleanup to Drones, FW's and Kroot. If your loadout is crisis suit heavy your flamer trick is fine, though I would never use it, but when you run all Monet suits as I do, you cant afford to set aside three of your 5(max) suits just for cleanup.

As Rikki said, you gotta be close to use flamers and its seriously doubtfull that your gonna be able to jump out of LOS let alone out of assault range. Even if you break that marine squad your three suits are gonna be sitting ducks in any but the most perfect circumstances.
 

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Undead Bonzi said:
The problem with that Squall, is that most people don't consider Elite Crisis Suits clean up units. Most people use the Crisis suits for hard hitting punch and leave the cleanup to Drones, FW's and Kroot. If your loadout is crisis suit heavy your flamer trick is fine, though I would never use it, but when you run all Monet suits as I do, you cant afford to set aside three of your 5(max) suits just for cleanup.

As Rikki said, you gotta be close to use flamers and its seriously doubtfull that your gonna be able to jump out of LOS let alone out of assault range. Even if you break that marine squad your three suits are gonna be sitting ducks in any but the most perfect circumstances.
Exactly I use Monat suits and I aint gonna waste valuable elite slots on flamers. The only time an XV8 should be close to the enemy is if you can be 80% certain your going to destroy/kill what your going to hit and if the XV8 has any chance of dying next turn whatever it hits needs to be a worthwhile enough target points wise for the XV8 to have been worth the sacrifice. and flamers cannot do that.
 

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Well, taking the side of the Keeper for a moment, gentlemen, Squall does in fact have a valid tactic if he's willing to get that close with a full crisis team, and his Blowtorch team comes out a good deal cheaper than your Helios.

Not everybody runs Monats all the time, and not everybody runs the same configs. One of the things that attracted me to the Tau to begin with is that they can be tailored to a very specific playstyle -if you folks got your way, every Tau player in the world would play the exact same list with the exact same tactics.

And that's no fun.
 

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If you read my post Stray I never said Squall didn't have a valid point. I mearly pointed out that it doesn't work for Monet players, which by in the large is what a I've seen in a lot of lists. My intent was to illustrait why some would dissagree with this load out. I did say that if your list was Crisis heavy this was a fine tactic. (This monet preference will undoubtably change with the advent of the new Dex and it's markerlight rules)

In the future please fully read my posts, small little tid bits have the ability to change the whole meaning of the post.
 

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Straylight said:
Well, taking the side of the Keeper for a moment, gentlemen, Squall does in fact have a valid tactic if he's willing to get that close with a full crisis team, and his Blowtorch team comes out a good deal cheaper than your Helios.

Not everybody runs Monats all the time, and not everybody runs the same configs. One of the things that attracted me to the Tau to begin with is that they can be tailored to a very specific playstyle -if you folks got your way, every Tau player in the world would play the exact same list with the exact same tactics.

And that's no fun.
Who ever said he did not have a valid tactic, no one, what we said was if he wants to get that close than yes its a valid tactic if you want to take out 2 Marines or 5 Hormies (then the 11 left rip you to shreds) then yes its great, but most tau players will agree getting that close is not a good idea.

The fact is that anti infantry can be done by other sections of the list better and much more efficiently, anti armour or anti elite killing units(termies, IC, high toughness, low save units) are on the other hand at a premium in the Tau list with the XV8 being the only real choice to fill this role, the fact that most of the weapons fits are tailored to this role pretty much says it all.

The cheaper point, well Flamer, plasma and multi = 57pts, plasma, fusion, multi = 63 pts a massive 6 whole points difference, yep 6 points is way to much to pay for the ability to take out absolutely anything that Helios chooses to hit, on the other hand I do have a whole 18 points saved to play with?? MMMMMM 18 points saved and 3 flamers or the Fusions and Plasma with the ability to kill most anything, god thats such a hard choice, oh and by the way the Fireknife is only 65pts just to show im not biased towards Helios (I am really).

Oh and the point about getting our way, maybe you should check the list forums some time, yes I firmly believe in the Helios and Helios twin configuration but if you take the time to check you will see I have often recommended the Fireknife config, Stealths, even Ion cannons at times and advised on various differing Mech or Hybrid list make ups and they have differed in plenty of respects dependent on the advice or preference of the person asking for advice. I would never be arrogant enough to say my list is best I am sure most of the "Folks" you refer to would feel the same. My list suits ME and thats great for me but my style is not everyone elses and god forbid it should be.
 

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Flamers are underrated squall14, I agree with you there. However, the reason why flamers are still not a great option, even though they're underrated, is because they're an anti-infantry weapon. Crisis suits aren't primarily taken as anti-infantry, rather as anti-medium vehicle and anti-2+ saves.
 

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MiketehFox said:
Theres no option in my codex for TL Flamers......
Nor is there an option for a Hardpoint BSF. So logic would suggest I was referring to the new codex.
 

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Yes, T0nka here already has a leg up on the rest of us, it seems, as he's already posting preliminary versions of the Advanced Tau Academy articles to replace the current MTT stuff. Go check out the Mech Tau list, good stuff going on over there.


Bonzi: I intended to speak in a more general frame of reference than the confines of this specific thread, but I appear to have missed the mark. I'll be more careful next time.

Within these confines, however, I had interpreted the point here to be about the potential applications of this config and flamers in general on Crisis Suits, and not the reasons why it isn't a good idea. Whether or not we would use the config ourselves is not the question here -how the config can be best used is.

Riki: I don't like you, you don't like me, so how about we just ignore each other 'til we go away? Sound good?
 

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Straylight said:
Yes, T0nka here already has a leg up on the rest of us, it seems, as he's already posting preliminary versions of the Advanced Tau Academy articles to replace the current MTT stuff. Go check out the Mech Tau list, good stuff going on over there.


Bonzi: I intended to speak in a more general frame of reference than the confines of this specific thread, but I appear to have missed the mark. I'll be more careful next time.

Within these confines, however, I had interpreted the point here to be about the potential applications of this config and flamers in general on Crisis Suits, and not the reasons why it isn't a good idea. Whether or not we would use the config ourselves is not the question here -how the config can be best used is.

Riki: I don't like you, you don't like me, so how about we just ignore each other 'til we go away? Sound good?
Tonka's stuff is good its well worth a read, stray the point of the thead is applications for the flamer, the problem as they stand at the moment is they dont really have one, with the new codex they may well have some uses, but not now.
Stray stop taking everything I say so seriously, I am not being serious when I make sarcastic responses, in fact I expected a few back from you, I have not made any remark about you personally and I wouldn't sink that low, c'mon dude take the replies as they are meant as a bit of sarcastic fun, thats me sarcastic and some times sarcasm gets points over like the 6 points one. Lifes to short to get upset over an answer to a point about 40K so chill.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
w00t

WOW! i'm glad that people have come round with so many ideas - thanks guys, keep it up.

take this: you have 2 teams of 3 crisis - 1 helios and 1 Blowtorch.
the blowtorch gets close to the enemy lines and the helios is nearby.

1) the Helios team destroys the marine squad bar 2-3 of them. the close-up blowtorch guys finish them off
2) the helios team outright destroys the marine squad. the blowtorch squad can now concentrate on light infantry (scouts etc.)
3) the Blowtorch guys outright kills the marine squad. the helios squad can now concentrate on termies.
4) despite both squads shooting, there are still 2-3 marines left. they will take a round of shooting from 2-3 bolters OR get charged. never underestimate S5!

now i can't see any of them going THAT badly, even No4 should be no problem for a full team of crisis. what do you think?
 

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squall14 said:
WOW! i'm glad that people have come round with so many ideas - thanks guys, keep it up.

take this: you have 2 teams of 3 crisis - 1 helios and 1 Blowtorch.
the blowtorch gets close to the enemy lines and the helios is nearby.

1) the Helios team destroys the marine squad bar 2-3 of them. the close-up blowtorch guys finish them off
2) the helios team outright destroys the marine squad. the blowtorch squad can now concentrate on light infantry (scouts etc.)
3) the Blowtorch guys outright kills the marine squad. the helios squad can now concentrate on termies.
4) despite both squads shooting, there are still 2-3 marines left. they will take a round of shooting from 2-3 bolters OR get charged. never underestimate S5!

now i can't see any of them going THAT badly, even No4 should be no problem for a full team of crisis. what do you think?
The teaming up of two teams sounds a better idea the Helios could stand by and be ready to clean up after the Torch unit has done its work, The only fall downs I could see are against hoard lists like Nids and Orks, the sheer unit size would make it dangerous, and its an expensive load out to take 1 unit of Marines out, but as an anti Marine tactical squad/ Termie and Scout killer it could be effective especially with the twin linked flamer option coming up, it would also have uses against things like Necrons (scarab swarms and Warriors etc).
The Torch squad as a stand alone is in my opinion a no go but the Helios/Blowtorch does sound reasonable if expensive.
 
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