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Well I have used them twice
So after only two games, they're underrated? With a 50% success rate?

Not to be a naysayer, but "science requires repeatable results". I encourage you to keep playing. If there are secrets to be unlocked, by all means, please find them. Its gonna take quite a few more games before some solid information can be gleaned from them.

I'd like to suggest that you start keeping a logbook. Write down everything they do and everything that happens to them. Keep every last detail: which # game it is with them, exact movement, shooting/assault results including all kills and casualties. It would be a good idea to include yours and your opponent's lists for each game.

There's always gonna be folks piping in with, "Well this one time...", as if some lucky experience should sell everyone on the idea. Keeping a record of consistent performance, on the other hand, will be quite valuable to all Tau players.

Good luck, sir.:beer:
 

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I am a free man!
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Heh. I won't require as much work out of you as psychotikwrym, but the more you can tell us -- batreps are particularly helpful -- the more helpful it will be.

I'll tell you right now that I'm a willing student, and eager to drink the Vespid Kool-Aid. I just need some more rational reasons to shill out the coin for such a unit when I already have designs on more Kroot, crisis suits, broadsides, and piranhas....
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Gladly, I plan on playing my friend again maybe 4 times this week. After those games are done I will do bat-reps for each. I would expect it in 2 or so weeks.
 

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The deep down truth
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Gladly, I plan on playing my friend again maybe 4 times this week. After those games are done I will do bat-reps for each. I would expect it in 2 or so weeks.
I have tried many times to get success out of Vespid and failed. They are simply to fragile and expensive for what they do. Expense does not just come down to making points back it also comes down to what you are compromising or losing to take the unit. To be truly effective (or as effective as a Vespid unit can be) you have to take the full unit and that is 182pts taken away from other areas of the list. Even in a 2000pt army I cannot think of one unit I would lose to take a Vespid unit, even if I faced Marines every single game (and they DO NOT perform that well against Marines).
I point you to my thread regarding Vespid. it was produced when 4th was in effect but most of it is still valid. I have updated it to take into account the new 5th rules for wound allocation (a major problem for Vepsid). I would also point out that Vespid are more vulnerable in 5th because units can run and any unit with fleet can assault after running, this makes their movement advantage less effective.
Anyway here is the article >>>http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/tau-empire/109696-vespids-they-really-bad-long.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Well I had my first game with my Marine buddy this week (1500 points). It was an annihilation game, we set up on short table edges as the board was eight feet long and two feet wide. We took the same lists as last week which heavily favored him...you will see why.

THE LISTS!!!

Mine
HQ- Fireknife Shas'el
Elites
2x Fireknives
2x Deathrains
3x Stealthsuits, T-ldr with ML and HWMT, and 2 Marker drones
Troops
12 FWs in Warfish
12 FWs in Warfish
14 Kroot and 6 kroot hounds
Fast Attack
6x Vespid
Heavy Support
1x Railhead
1x Skyray

His list (I am unsure about what is what in what slot for Marines)
Master of the forge with Conversion beamer
Librarian with assault marines, had Gate and Vortex
10 man Tac Marine squad - Rhino
10 man Tac Marine squad - Rhino
5 man Combat Squad
1x Techmarine w/ 2 Servitors
2x Dreadnaughts (both with multi-meltas)
1x Thunderfire Cannon
1x Devastator Squad (all missile launchers)

Yeah with all those long range templates and the LONG board I was sure my Vespids would eat template and die long before they got to any marines. I thought about deepstriking then dismissed it out of hand due to how narrow the board was.

I won the roll to go first

Turn 1 - Tau
My suits infiltrate and light up the Devastator Squad (Only thing in range) and I call in two Seekers from the Skyray, both hit and wound but he makes his cover saves. My Hammerhead is out of range (yes you read that right...g-d I hate this table).

Turn 1 -SM
His Master of the forges Conversion beamer Takes out my commander and the two Fireknife suits. His Librarian gates towards me.

Turn 2 - Tau
More dutiful advancing. My Suits marker-light up and Dread and all three hit. I called in three seeker missiles, they all hit, ....and I roll three 1s to penetrate (ususally my Skyray does so much better). The hammerhead stuns a dread.

Turn 2 - SM
His conversion beamer scatters off the board! So does his Librarian squad!!! Vengence for the Shas'el surely! His Thunderfire kills two vespid.

Turn 3 - Tau
My kroot come in on the right side and have a snack of devastator squad. The rest of my army moves forward. The Hammerhead fails to glance the Dreads armor (my penetrate rolls stink this entire game). My deathrains pop a Rhino and the Vespid kill two marines in shooting and one in assault, and are killed themselves in the assault.

Turn 3- SM
His conversion beamer Stuns the hammerhead. The still mobile dread blows up one of the D-fish, killing four of the FWs inside, they pass their pinning check and they do not run.

Turn 4- Tau
The Deathrains immobilize the dread. The firewarriors pop one marine from the squad the vespid hit earlier, a seeker missile also manages to kill one The devilfish kills one from tac squad 2. The marines flee, but only 2 inches.

Turn 4- SM
The conversion beamer pops the Hammerhead, and a dreadnaught blows up the other Fish...killing 4 FWs from squad 2. The Thunder fire kills one of the Deathrains and a Fire Warrior from the first squad to get blown out of its fish, the weakened tac squad comes back and kills five more FWs from that squad. The Kroot die in a hail of bolter fire.

Turn 5- Tau
Not much left to do. The Firewarriors try to finish off the Marines, and leave one left. The deathrain stuns the immobilized dread. A massive hail of fire from everything else I have cannot seem to kill that one damn Marine.

Turn 5 - SM
The marines fail to do anything thankfully.

Dice roll is a 1, the game ends

Tau -2 KPs (the Librarian and the devastator squad)
Marines -3 KPs (Kroot, Hammerhead, and Vespid)
Marines Win. If it had gone on another turn I could have popped the Dread and that last flippin marine. However that conversion beamer or thunderfire cannon would have killed the small squad of FWs and possibly the one that still had 8 left...or the deathrain.

My record against marines (and therefire 40k) so far (W/D/L) 1-6-2...yeah we have had alot of close games.
 

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DROP PODS!!
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i had a game against marines a while back, the most surprising my fire warriors didnt get smashed by the assault termies after the land raiders was blown in front of the fire warriors by broad sides. But it was my vespids that won me the game, took out the two 5 man tac squads, the good thing was the didnt get shot to pieces but got smushed by calgar in the final turn

4 KP tau
3 KP marines
 

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Are you seriously just rushing towards the enemy? As that's generally implied by "hitting the enemy lines", I have to assume you are; this makes me seriously question how you're playing your Tau.

Why would you spend so many points on a unit that "moves, shoots, assaults", when we can take things that "Jump, Shoot, Jump"?

Drinking the Kool-Aid? Hardly...
Wow. You're a pompous prick. Get off you're high horse champ. I've seen tau players mop the floor using vespids correctly and with strategy. Every piece can be used for something if implemented correctly. That's the fun challenge of the game. Or maybe you prefer to play like a caveman and use the easiest pieces every time.

Thanks for your take on vespids zeev :)
 

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Wow. You're a pompous prick. Get off you're high horse champ. I've seen tau players mop the floor using vespids correctly and with strategy. Every piece can be used for something if implemented correctly. That's the fun challenge of the game. Or maybe you prefer to play like a caveman and use the easiest pieces every time.

Thanks for your take on vespids zeev :)


Wow. You really had to bring out this old thread again... I hate when these things get dug up a year later.
 

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The deep down truth
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Wow. You're a pompous prick. Get off you're high horse champ.
Oh I can see we are going to ahve fun with you, 1st post and you already broke about six forum rules. Carry on like that and we won't have to put you right about your erroneous view of Vespids, you won't be here long enough. I have played Tau since day one and I have played with and against Tau with just about every army, I have played many talented Tau players and have faced Vespids, I have seen Vespids played numerous times and I have never seen them do anything useful.
It is not about using the "easiest pieces" it is about not using pieces that are more often than not a liability. 5th is getting more and more Mech MSU based and Vespids are pretty much useless in that environment, do I really have to explain why?
 

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Unfortunately that is where the Tau are at this point. We won't be seeing much variation in the way they are played in a competitive environment until we get a codex update. For the greater good?
 

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Wow. You're a pompous prick. Get off you're high horse champ.
Should I feel special because threadomancy was perpetrated just to call me names? :)

And why hasn't a mod closed this yet? They're really dragging their feet lately.
 

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You lot in the tau forum really get yourselves heated up over the slightest things don't you?
In about 6 posts I don't think there is a forum rule you haven't broken. (Maybe copyright infringement is about it?)

Calm down please. Since this has come up again we should probably discuss it.

Pros of vespids:
... ... ... ... gimme a minute i'm trying to think of something they add to tau we don't already have ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... I5?
Thats pretty much it, and they are actually worse in combat than battle suits so I5 is pretty wasted there.

Cons of vespid:

Fragile, don't kill vehicles, don't do anything we haven't already got, over-costed... you get the idea.

The math-hammer on point efficiency V marines:

Vespids: 1.333 V marines, that is actually pretty damn good. Means that over the coarse of a game the vespids will probably kill 1.3 marines for every vespid you take. I would show you the mathammer but it's a very complex calculator I took about 6 months to make that factors the % chance of cover, speed, armour, transport capability etc...

Marines: 1.333 V vespids. Well who on earth would have expected that??? factoring cover and speed bolter-armed marines are just as good at killing vespids as vespids are marines. Intersting... So here we establish that if you fire first and weaken the enemy and then charge him with your vespids they are actually a pretty solid choice to take! So yes vespids make their points back with appropriate use of cover. Not bad, so why do we not take them? Because of this:

Foot slogging Fire Warriors: 0.8875 V marines, so just under their point cost assuming that 75% of the time they fire at maximum range and 25% of the time at rapid-fire range.

Mech Marines: 0.8225 V foot-slogging fire-warriors, so marines are worse at killing fire-warriors than fire-warriors are at killing marines assuming 75/25 rapid-fire/max range as they're mechanised.

So what this shows you is that basic foot-slogging fire warriors, a unit commonly regarded as bad, are better than vespids in terms of killing marines v taking damage back.

Then of course 2 units you should all have guessed are the final nail in vespids coffin:

Mech-fire warriors: 0.854pt efficiency V marines, marines have less than 0.3pt efficiency back due to the transport.
Fire knives: 1.073 efficiency V marines, marines have a 0.694 efficiency back at them, this doesnt even factor in JSJ.

So why take vespids when foot fire warriors, mechanised fire warriors and fire knives are better in EVERY WAY. So you should probably only take them if you are running 6 mounted fire warrior squads and as many battlesuits as possible. And then you should buy pathfinders instead anyway. Now can a mod close this necro-post please?
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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General Vexille, welcome to Librarim Online. Feel free to contact either myself or another mod if you have any questions. In the mean time, I'm including a link for our rules below.

Rules of Librarium Online

You'll notice that posting in threads older than a few months is actually against forum rules (see "Reviving topics, a.k.a. Necromancy").

More importantly, you've violated the rules for how we treat each other on LO. Please see the topic heading "No Flaming or Trolling." We DON'T tolerate verbal attacks on other members.

And why hasn't a mod closed this yet? They're really dragging their feet lately.
Mods don't go around reading every thread. We also rely on our members, who should report their issues. In this case, the thread was reported two hours ago. That's really not a bad reaction time. After all, we aren't 911.

In addition, it's a weekend, whereas our boards are most active during the week. This goes for mods as well, so there are fewer of us logging on and doing our daily chores. Now, if you'll excuse me, I just got up, and I haven't even had a cup of coffee yet.

You lot in the tau forum really get yourselves heated up over the slightest things don't you?
Our Tau community has the talent of figuring out how to turn a feather into a timebomb. Macgyver would be jealous.

At this point, it seems the momentum of the thread might be coming back to life. However, in abiding by the rules, we should really start a new topic if fresh conversation is to ensue. Given that, I'm putting this thread back in the ground to rest.

*thread closed*
 
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