No one in a casual game should care. Just put the command models in the back rank to make things clear if they are supposed to be rank and file.So the question of modelling a Standard Bearer and musician or not doesn't really matter because I wont be forced to use him as such...right?
Dedicated bunkers aren't always necessary. Planning a turn ahead and shuffling the characters to where is effective but safe is the key. If you happen to take some units that are often behind the others (maybe a small unit of archers) you can have more options in this regard.My main question though is where to position characters such as the BSB and especially the mage. I've heard of the term mage-bunker which I assume is meant for phoenix guard but even then unless he is in the second rank due to tonnes of other characters he will still be an easy kill in CC. Should I put him in with WL Spears or Sisters (Sisters might be out of range for many spells) In our game I had put him in with my White Lions but he got killed in my 2nd turn even though I realised my mistake and tried to Walk Between Worlds and challenge. (That and unlucky rolls on saves didn't help)
Copying other players' armies for you first few games isn't bad, but make sure that you understand why they took the units and options that they did. I'm sure that you know from your 40k experience that everyone develops their own playstyle. Our book has a lot of units worth taking, and only a few that you should try to avoid. Which units end up in an army therefore, has a lot to do with what players are looking for in their force. This can be influenced by the type of opponents you face most often (like you, I see a lot of Lizardmen in my games), as well as by how you play the game. If you think that you need/want a unit that the general consensus advises against, try it anyways and see if it fits your style. If it doesn't work, you can always save your money.We had a great game even though he pretty solidly beat me, I managed to kill or rout virtually everything he had except the Temple Guard and Slann MP.
Depending on what he brought, that's not bad! Where did you mess up?!
It was our first game in 8th, we played a few in what I think was 6th edition? (When the Empire vs. Orcs set was brand new).
That's 6th, yep. I started playing just a bit before you did it seems, and I still have two of those sets lurking about in my Empire and O&G armies. Ah, nostalgia
(ASF + Great Weapons, Frenzy, Stomp, THunderstomp, Terror, Fear, Poisoned Attacks, Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Cavalry, Winds of magic, dispelling without a wizard, flame weapon scattering into a close combat, skirmishers, Killing Blow, Riders and mounts having different targets)
That's probably where you went wrong then. ASF is sweet, and really puts us over on Lizards. Same for dispelling without Wizards. And who the heck brought Monstrous Cavalry?! Neither army has these. Riders and Mounts also have to have the same targets unless they're Ridden Monsters. Also, in terms of scattering templates into combat, the only precedent is that cannons cannot be fired at a target that might cause them to hit a unit engaged in combat - the rule of thumb therefore is that no warmachine may be fired at a target which might bring it into contact with a regiment in melee (maximum scatter)
I am slowly looking up everything that we were still unsure of and I am finding the answers in the rulebook even though I couldn't at the time, so I wont bore you with those questions.
That's what the RULES section is for!
I'm looking for some tips list building:
This is what I used last weekend.
It's based mostly on what I already have and what I would like to purchase soon. Both esthetics and pricewise.
I like a big block of spears. I hate the look of archers.
Good, because we mostly just hate Archers here. There are a few supporters who use them for "finishing off" targets already wounded by magic or RBTs, but you can certainly get away without using an Archers at all. They just aren't effective for shooting anything worth shooting at.
What I'm thinking of purchasing: Sisters, Frost Phoenix, a few more SM (5), 20 WL OR 20 PG
Archmage: Lvl 4, Talisman of Preservation (265)
And Book of Hoeth. Trust me, it's awesome. Otherwise, yep, bog-standard wizard.
Noble: BSB, Sword of Might, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield of Merwyrm. (139)
Golden Crown's a bit overrated. Nice 2++ against the first hit, you can get that with the Charmed Shield (though you'd lose Merwyrm) for half as many points. And that's how you know you're over-spending for it.
31 Spears. Standard, Musician.
10 Silver helms Shields, Standard, Musician.
For a 2k game, this is too much in your Core. Elf Core is pretty terrible, with the exception of the Silver Helms and Reavers, maybe the Archers if you're one of those crazies. The Spears are good, but Phoenix Guard do it better. Silvers give us a regiment with solid armor, and believe it or not they hit harder than Swordmasters or White Lions when they charge (after the charge they're utter pants, but on the charge they're gorgeous). Get used to your Reavers - they are extremely versatile units and you'll learn to love them after they save your bacon a few times (mine were just the difference between me winning a game by 300pts, or losing it by 1000, as an example)
20 White Lions. Razor Standard + Full Command
Who are you facing with a 3+ save?! Most of the time, the -3 to Armor from the S6 is more than enough to ignore somebody's save. Unless you're up against Chaos Warriors suited up to take the most knocks of anyone in the game, or maybe Knights, you're not going to the need the Razor. Also, no need for full commands unless you have a character to protect. Champions can eat challenges for the characters, or issue them to keep big scary "blender builds" away from your unit (for a turn). Champs are usually the last thing that I spend points on though.
A tiny unit, and White Lions will kill more of ANYTHING unless it's T3 with less than a 3+ save. Not by much, mind, but they're more lethal. The Lions are also Stubborn and harder to kill with Shooting, which makes them better in a small regiment like this where they're not Steadfast and are prone to Panic if too many of them catch arrows to the knee. If you're considering buying more SM, I'd spend that money on Lions, and then swap your current regiment of Lions for those Phoenix Guard you were thinking of.
Love it. Most people have sort of phased them out over time, but they're always going to be a solid unit choice. They definitely help make your Spears a valid option.
10 Sisters of Avelorn
Eh. Flaming shooting is good, but only because it strips Regen from the big beasties before the RBTs can rip them up. You pay for the Flaming - point for point, you can expect your RBTs to do just as much or more damage. For now, unless you get more RBTs, I would swap these girls FOR more RBTs. Only when you're maxed on RBTs, or nearly so, should you consider grabbing a block of Sisters (unless you have some crazy plan).
I have a tonne of questions about listbuilding, at the moment I am just trying to copy others' lists to a certain extent, until I get a few games under my belt so I can get a feel for what I like and don't like. I won't be making too many impulse buys because I know I have too much still to paint.
Good way to go about it, nobody is going to fault you for that.
So the question of modelling a Standard Bearer and musician or not doesn't really matter because I wont be forced to use him as such...right?
Units should have their command elements WSIWYG. You'll tend to end up with extra models anyways, so it's good to have one on hand. If you have the IoB set, you've already got the Seaguard command models - they would work. The best way to think about it, is that your opponent is going to see your front rank, and that's all he really cares about. If your front rank has shields, and the models behind do not, it's not as big a deal. Commands go in the front rank, so you should try to make sure that your opponent is certain that you do/don't have a command.
My main question though is where to position characters such as the BSB and especially the mage. I've heard of the term mage-bunker which I assume is meant for phoenix guard but even then unless he is in the second rank due to tonnes of other characters he will still be an easy kill in CC. Should I put him in with WL Spears or Sisters (Sisters might be out of range for many spells) In our game I had put him in with my White Lions but he got killed in my 2nd turn even though I realised my mistake and tried to Walk Between Worlds and challenge. (That and unlucky rolls on saves didn't help)
Remember that Walk Between Worlds doesn't make you Ethereal for the whole turn - just for the Move (in case you were thinking that WBW would make you immune to Mundane attacks).
As for where to put your characters, usually you want them out of the combat units. Putting the wizards with your Sisters can work, since you're normally within 24" of the enemy anyways, if you want to shoot with Sisters, and your friendlies should be between you and them. Having a good Ward on your characters is important though, so you can survive a few rounds of combat. There are tricks as well, like dumping your wizards out the back on the turn before you intend to see combat and then staying close to your regiment, or standing between two regiments, 1" behind and with just 1" on either side. It can end disastrously if you Flee, or if the enemy gets around your unit or targets you with magic, but it's sometimes better than running face first into a wall of beat-sticks. Wherever you pu them, they're at risk, so just pray to the dice gods and hope your guys can keep their heads down.
Sorry for long first post.
I tried to include spoiler tags to make it seem shorter but that doesn't seem to work here.
Nope, no spoiler-tags, and don't worry - I'm renowned for my long posts. One of our users brews a pot of coffee before he sits down to respond to my rambles!
You are correct. Flying Cavalry are always Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers and Flyers and Ripperdactyls are Monstrous Beasts, so they are also Monstrous Cavalry. Be glad he didn't bring Terradons who are much better against Elves.Monstrous Cavalry I may be wrong but I meant the Ripperdactyls he had 2 units of, might just be Flying Cavalry though. I don't have the Lizards book here but those guys had a list of rules long as my arm.
Edit: just found that the Terradon Riders count as Monstrous Cavalry in the Bestiary of the BRB.