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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Other than the new characters that I'd be almost embarrassed to take even against my family, has anyone thought up some good combinations? I don't have the wood elf book. I don't really see much to take from the HE book though. Maybe silver helms if you want cheap heavy cavalry. Or a noble with the merwyrm shield. Other than that it seems that the best thing that comes from this is the addition of martial prowess to the DE list. I feel like just taking a normal DE army and calling it a host of the eternity king army just to get the martial prowess.

I'd like to hear thoughts on some nasty combinations and maybe some thoughts on why elves, who already have some strong books should just ignore this new book.
 

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Can melkith still be taken on his cold one? If so, melkith in a unit with banner of cheese. 2++ vs magical and non magical attacks :)

Also warlocks with lvl 4 high magic (from high elves) and level 4 high magic (from wood elves).
3++ and ignore wounds.

Crossbow men with +D3 ballistic skill from high magic

Hellebron in phoenix guard or white lions with banner of cheese

Lots of broken combinations
 

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I'm in the camp that aside from adding White Lions and the Banner of the World Dragon to everything, no, there's no reason to take a mixed army. Basically, the swap is:
Dark Elves - take White Lions and the Banner
High Elves - take Dark Riders, cheaper RBTs, and Crossbows maybe
Wood Elves - take everything from another army. just buy another army. seriously, you're still Wood Elves.

The biggest "cheese" that you'll get from this army is simply dropping any named characters that you can't have, and then saying that you're an Eternal Host and getting the free Martial Prowess. High Elves actually gain more from this than Dark Elves do, because Murderous Prowess is the better of the two powers.

Can you break it? Sure, it's pretty broken right out of the box, thanks to the lazy, blanket additions of special rules from both armies. However, I don't think it's like the Glottkin book, where there's some hidden key or combo out there which will suddenly make the army disgusting. Nope - GW just handed us the keys to the most disgusting army in the game, and turned us loose.

Having not looked at the book in detail yet, haven't they rewritten the High/Dark lores or at least the attributes? Seems kinda fishy that they'd let that slip through, because I thought that the Wood Elf versions of the Lores were different. It would be confusing to have two wizards on the field with the same lore but getting different bonuses...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I don't have the book yet. I've seen pictures of most of the pages that have rules on them. (Maybe all the pages with rules on them not sure) I didn't see anything about them reworking any lores. It seems like they just added an extra spell to every lore. And as far as Malekith he seems only to offered as a combined profile with his dragon whether you take him as the eternity king or phoenix king. So for these lists it seems Malekith cannot be fielded on foot or any other mounts.

Really I'm pretty dissapointed. We don't get anything new or fun. Just some op characters (no new models for them either) and another special rule that's nice but will just make people think we're dicks for using it. Maybe a dark elf army led by allarielle as the incarnate of life could be fun. Lol probably still get some glares for that too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I suppose from a modelling standpoint this list might be kinda fun if you had a lot of money and time to kit bash an entire army whose units have elements of both high and dark elf style.
 

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Really I'm pretty dissapointed. We don't get anything new or fun. Just some op characters (no new models for them either) and another special rule that's nice but will just make people think we're dicks for using it. Maybe a dark elf army led by allarielle as the incarnate of life could be fun. Lol probably still get some glares for that too.
This is pretty much whole gripe with End Times, in a nutshell. Classic GW is finally starting to show through again - they're taking the easiest way out, and just cashing in on us, while moving a few new "big models" or crossing a few more lines between Fantasy and 40k (guess where you should look for an Avatar: it's Eldar). With the Undead and WoC, it really felt like they were changing things, but in reality, it's just that those armies had a lot of special rules which needed to be clarified in order for their units to even function together on the table. With Elves, GW took looked back, grinned, and said "whelp, we're in the home-stretch now!" because the armies are already so similar that they didn't need to rejig any rules to make them fit together.
If I were a betting man, my guess would be that there aren't any 'Legion' style lists in the last book unless they are just complete mash-ups sans special rules. More likely, it's going to be a toss-out to all the "little people" who didn't get books. You'll get a mini-list of characters and maybe some new units scattered across the big-sellers. Maybe a hook put in for Brets if they're planning on redoing the book any time soon, just to get people interested in the army again.

As for all of the "lists" you could build with this? Well, I've seen a guy who was at least working on an 'Aenarion' army back when I was in college. It was smart - he was buying all of his stuff on eBay, second-hand and could never count on getting enough bits to build a full regiment of anything. So he started mashing them together and built an army that used style-cues from all three lines and would represent what Anearion's army (or Malekith's during the Sundering) would probably have looked like. Dark Elf Warriors carrying Bows instead of Crossbows, and "prototype" White Lions and Swordmasters, since those units would not have existed at the time.
He used the High Elf rules, and nobody ever complained.

I also remember playing some huge games with my group, where my friend used his Daemons and I teamed up with my WoC using the "Allies rules" in the 8th edition book. We got to play a 'Legions' army several years before they said it was "officially okay."

I'm getting the books for the fluff and the art first. If you're buying them because you think that the rules are special, you're a fool. This is another case of the so-called "friendly" gamers wanting to feel more like the 'official' and 'rules-lawyering' tournament players.
 

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I just have a question about Imrik. Now that his stats are combined with his mount, does all the mount get all the buffs. Had a game against a mate who used Imrik and got to do all the breath attacks, regular attacks and thunder stomp before I got to go (he was attacking skeletons).

Can this be done?
 

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Yes. It's no longer:

Imrik
special rules which apply to Imrik
Dragon
Special rules which apply to Dragon

If they had the absence of mind to give the entire model 'Always Strikes First', then everything will count as having ASF. Stomps, therefore, being 'Always Strikes Last' would instead be made at Initiative. This is really stupid of GW though, unless that character costs a ton of points or has an incredibly low Toughness (for a Dragon) and no Wards. ASF Dragons just should not exist.
 

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Yea i really like the end of times but the combined profile is something the community really doesnt like.
Right now riders and monsters just dont work. The high elf mage on a dragon for example is stupid as the dragon wants to chomp chomp in combat, but the poor mage gets killed.
However the combined profiles is just a lazy way at trying to fix this.

I really like 8th but there are some changes that are needed, like fixing steadfast and cavalry. But also things like 50% lords where although i prefer the current system, i can see why it is needed (and i imagine a drop in the current 25% core choice to around 15%).

But things like combined profiles are just creating hero hammer again.
Hopefully this is just an end of times thing and will not carry into 9th....but doesnt look likely as they have alot of empire griffons to sell.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
That's the way it is in the end times book. There is no Malekith and seraphon. There's just Malekith. His stat line is that of a suped up dragon and Malekiths special rules include the breath weapon and he is listed as troop type monster (character) the same with imrik.
Other than "removed from play" spells, I can't think of anyway to kill Malekith reliably as he is in the end times book. Armor of midnight + 10 wound dragon is crazy.
 

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As a matter of interest, despite some of the negativity about it, how broken do you think these new rules really are if you leave out the special characters? Only reason I ask is because seeing as how I play all the elven armies in fantasy (plus a little undead) it's fun for me to finally get to play larger games by combining smaller lists (or just making a big one). I did one today for e.g. at 2500, and although I lost (price of combining a 1k, and 2 750 lists rather than just making a big one), I personally didn't find the whole martial prowess & murderous prowess to be that big of a game changer... all came down to luck & tactics in the end.
 

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I did one today for e.g. at 2500, and although I lost (price of combining a 1k, and 2 750 lists rather than just making a big one), I personally didn't find the whole martial prowess & murderous prowess to be that big of a game changer... all came down to luck & tactics in the end.
That's the thing though - optimized, and it's going to be brutal.
In the other two books, nobody gained or lost anything. Well, kinda

Nagash - Undead no longer crumble when the general dies. I don't think that anyone really considered that to be a problem, losing it wasn't a big deal. The Tomb Kings also gain Undead, rather than the somewhat more brutal Nehekaran Undead, but they need all the help they can get!

Glottkin - this is a three part, because of the wider number of armies and new rules.
1) Beastmen: can get marks now, at pts/model rates. This isn't a win or loss for Beastmen, since they have to pay for any shiny new advantages, as it should be.
2) WoC: gains/loses absolutely nothing on it's own. A WoC army played as a "Legion" is going to be identical to a regular old WoC army, except for a lightly modified Eye of the Gods (minor change, like the VC Crumble thing)
3) Daemons: Now get bog-standard Unstable, which hurts them, actually. Otherwise unchanged.

So in the end, everything is balanced or else very minor.
Now, look at my 100% High Elf army, if I decide to just run it as a Host list - remember that the whole thing gains Hatred Elves (keep their Rerolls against everyone else now) and Murderous Prowess at no extra cost.

L4 Archmage
BSB

Core:
18 Silver Helms
5 Reavers
5 Reavers

Special
24 White Lions
24 White Lions

Rare
2 RBTs

Those Lions are striking at S6, with all 24 attacks, and rerolling 1's when they fail to wound. They wound most stuff on a 2+. If you'll notice, the Dark Elves don't have S6 options in their army, outside of characters. None of their units are basically "auto-popping" enemy regiments with a stunning 97.2% Hit/Wound ratio.

The High Elf armies are the big winners here. If the Dark Elves want to poach High Elf stuff, they may as well go whole hog. Consider:

White Lions vs. Executioners... is there really a challenge here? I mean, Swordmasters (2S5A vs. 1S5A) are better than Execs, and they're pariahs in their own army.
Phoenix Guard vs. Black Guard - when you have access to 2S5A, Sv5+ (Swordmasters) or 1S4A, Sv5+/4++ (Phoenix Guard) why the heck would anyone keep taking Black Guard?

Anywhere that you can compare a Dark Elf unit right smack against a High Elf one, the HE's win out. The exceptions are:

DarkShards vs. Archers/LSG
Corsairs vs. Spears/Archers/LSG
Dark Riders vs. Reavers (because oh my god, only 1pt more for RXBs instead of bows, plus sv4+ FastCav if you want)

High Elves don't have Sisters or Witches, but nobody really cares at this point. If you take a Cauldron or Brew, you can toss it into White Lions and make things downright stupid.
The Wizards are mostly on-par with one another, so that's up to everyone. The High Elf characters have better item support for non-BrewHag BSBs, and Elves are always a minimal-character army to begin with.

The ability to cherry-pick isn't what's got most people angry though. It's the fact that you can just buy the Khaine book, add nothing to your existing army, and get huge boosts from the new rules. It's insane. The Wood Elves actually gain the most, but they also start with the least, and if they start cherry-picking you end up with a High Elf army with some Dark Elves and a Treeman.
 

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That's the thing though - optimized, and it's going to be brutal.
In the other two books, nobody gained or lost anything. Well, kinda

Nagash - Undead no longer crumble when the general dies. I don't think that anyone really considered that to be a problem, losing it wasn't a big deal. The Tomb Kings also gain Undead, rather than the somewhat more brutal Nehekaran Undead, but they need all the help they can get!

Glottkin - this is a three part, because of the wider number of armies and new rules.
1) Beastmen: can get marks now, at pts/model rates. This isn't a win or loss for Beastmen, since they have to pay for any shiny new advantages, as it should be.
2) WoC: gains/loses absolutely nothing on it's own. A WoC army played as a "Legion" is going to be identical to a regular old WoC army, except for a lightly modified Eye of the Gods (minor change, like the VC Crumble thing)
3) Daemons: Now get bog-standard Unstable, which hurts them, actually. Otherwise unchanged.

So in the end, everything is balanced or else very minor.
Now, look at my 100% High Elf army, if I decide to just run it as a Host list - remember that the whole thing gains Hatred Elves (keep their Rerolls against everyone else now) and Murderous Prowess at no extra cost.

L4 Archmage
BSB

Core:
18 Silver Helms
5 Reavers
5 Reavers

Special
24 White Lions
24 White Lions

Rare
2 RBTs

Those Lions are striking at S6, with all 24 attacks, and rerolling 1's when they fail to wound. They wound most stuff on a 2+. If you'll notice, the Dark Elves don't have S6 options in their army, outside of characters. None of their units are basically "auto-popping" enemy regiments with a stunning 97.2% Hit/Wound ratio.

The High Elf armies are the big winners here. If the Dark Elves want to poach High Elf stuff, they may as well go whole hog. Consider:

White Lions vs. Executioners... is there really a challenge here? I mean, Swordmasters (2S5A vs. 1S5A) are better than Execs, and they're pariahs in their own army.
Phoenix Guard vs. Black Guard - when you have access to 2S5A, Sv5+ (Swordmasters) or 1S4A, Sv5+/4++ (Phoenix Guard) why the heck would anyone keep taking Black Guard?

Anywhere that you can compare a Dark Elf unit right smack against a High Elf one, the HE's win out. The exceptions are:

DarkShards vs. Archers/LSG
Corsairs vs. Spears/Archers/LSG
Dark Riders vs. Reavers (because oh my god, only 1pt more for RXBs instead of bows, plus sv4+ FastCav if you want)

High Elves don't have Sisters or Witches, but nobody really cares at this point. If you take a Cauldron or Brew, you can toss it into White Lions and make things downright stupid.
The Wizards are mostly on-par with one another, so that's up to everyone. The High Elf characters have better item support for non-BrewHag BSBs, and Elves are always a minimal-character army to begin with.

The ability to cherry-pick isn't what's got most people angry though. It's the fact that you can just buy the Khaine book, add nothing to your existing army, and get huge boosts from the new rules. It's insane. The Wood Elves actually gain the most, but they also start with the least, and if they start cherry-picking you end up with a High Elf army with some Dark Elves and a Treeman.
Thanks for the well thought out post ;) - i'm beginning to see where y'all are coming from now.
 

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I have what may be considered to be a radical and possibly controversial solution when it comes to the "problem" High Elf armies taking advantage of Murderous Prowess.

Just. Say. No.

Seriously. The End Times are an optional supplement. If your opponent shows up with a High Elf army and says he is using an "End Times" list and therefore his 3 units of 30 White Lions now have Murderous Prowess, by the rules he needs your consent to use it. No opponents permission, no End Times list. It's dickish I know but if it's that much of a problem for you then it's your only choice other than sucking it up.

I have a 3k High Elf army myself in addition to my Dark Elf collection, so I might mix it up and see what's what. Will probably stick to the Druchii though (never liked White Lions).
 

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Also in addition.

Executioners have 1A @ WS5, I5, S6 KB and are there to carve their way through heavily armoured units. Swordmasters have 2A @ WS6, I5, S5 and are there to carve open light/med units. Different battlefield roles. Also in Executioners vs Swordmasters the Executioners get re-rolls to hit and wound and the Swordmasters don't.

Basically, Swordmasters are better compared to Black Guard (who are better due to getting re-rolls) rather than being compared to Executioners.

Now in the case of White Lions vs Executioners it is still an even match up. Sure White Lions get their extra rank but the Executioners are again re-rolling hits and wounds. End result: massive casualties on both sides.

Phoenix Guard vs Black Guard - One is offensive, one is defensive. The Black Guard get re-rolls to hit and wound, the Phoenix Guard get a 4+ ward.

Also you are forgetting that Shades s**t all over Shadow Warriors.

Now, granted, this is outside of the End Times rules.

Inside the End Times rules there is a massive difference between the qualities of High Elf and Dark Elf units which is a major factor in what to take.....





The High Elf Models are ugly as sin (Phoenix Guard are a pass). The Dark Elf Models are supermodels by comparison. And I never liked White Lions anyway.




Disclaimer: This is not an assault/flamebaiting/trolling etc. It's an attempt to establish a debate. No offense or aggression is meant.
 

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I recently played a 6000pt a side End Times game between 6 players which was Host of the Eternity King (Dark Elves/High Elves) vs Legions of Chaos (Chaos Warriors) and I do have to say that the Host of the Eternity King is horrific. The combination of Murderous Prowess and Martial Prowess on large blocks of basic troops like Dreadspears and Bleakswords makes a lot of difference even against elite units like Chaos Warriors and Putrid Blightkings. However I think it is an army that relies heavily on its special characters to carry the day namely Malekith the Eternity King and Alarielle the Incarnate of Life.

JvK B)
 

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Will admit, never thought about Martial Prowess for the Druchii side....let alone about how it affects our Core.

I have to say, the main appeal of this whole book for me is Malekith. Loved him since I picked up the 5th Ed Book, loved him all throughout 6th, 7th and 8th. Now he has his rightful place!! Mwahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!

*cough*
Though yes, the armies do seem very dependent on their Special Characters. Mainly due to their insane power level.
 

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Will admit, never thought about Martial Prowess for the Druchii side....let alone about how it affects our Core.
As I said it makes them horrific. Most of the core I faced (I play chaos warriors.) were Dark Elves and they were quite formidable. A unit of 50 Dreadspears were knocking out 51 S3 attacks, re-rolling to hit most of the time and re-rolling 1's to wound.

I have to say, the main appeal of this whole book for me is Malekith. Loved him since I picked up the 5th Ed Book, loved him all throughout 6th, 7th and 8th. Now he has his rightful place!! Mwahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!
As the Phoenix King he is very focused on offense in both magic and combat. As the Eternity King he becomes an absolute monster.

Though yes, the armies do seem very dependent on their Special Characters. Mainly due to their insane power level.
Indeed.

JvK B)
 

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No str 6? COK on charge and executioners?

edit: And how are lions hitting with 97.2% of their attacks?
They're not hitting with 97%, they're converting 97% of their hits into kills. So if they hit on 4's, with 200 attacks, they would get 100 hits and 97 kills. Compare that to S6 without the reroll for Muderous, and you're looking at just 83 kills per 100 hits, or 83%. This is problematic when you consider that Elves already get a lot more hits than the average army, because they normally get to reroll for ASF.

I have what may be considered to be a radical and possibly controversial solution when it comes to the "problem" High Elf armies taking advantage of Murderous Prowess.

Just. Say. No.

Seriously. The End Times are an optional supplement. If your opponent shows up with a High Elf army and says he is using an "End Times" list and therefore his 3 units of 30 White Lions now have Murderous Prowess, by the rules he needs your consent to use it. No opponents permission, no End Times list. It's dickish I know but if it's that much of a problem for you then it's your only choice other than sucking it up.
ET's only "optional" in those 'friendly' games that everyone runs on about. As far as Games Workshop and even most Grand Tournaments are concerned, it's a perfectly viable army, and refusing a game against an ET army is - to them - the same as refusing a game against a regular High Elf army.
There are "optional" rules within the End Times books, and they are tied to the scenarios within each book - for example, the new Magic rules regarding spell generation and number of powerdice. However, the 50% Lords and Heroes caps, as well as Lore of Undeath, have been FAQ'd to be applicable to all armies, and the ET "Host/Legion" lists are considered valid for everyone to take.

The current "limiting factor" for these armies within the Grand Tournaments is the ruling that you are not allowed to use Magic Items from the component books, and are therefore limited to Common Magic Items only. However, particularly for the Elf list, that's not a big deal. They lose the BotWD and Book of Hoeth, but otherwise they're fine. The easiest way to "break" the Chaos Host still requires access to the army-specific items. With Elves, the biggest gains are not from their character or item selections, but from free, tagged-on rules.

That's the beef that everyone's got. In a "friendly game", there was nothing to stop two players from agreeing that one could mix'n'match or cherry-pick from these armies in order to create some kind of combined host. However, now that ET has been released, these rules have been forced onto anyone who plays tournaments or (since everyone likes to throw out the "10% of players attend tournaments" 'fact') anyone who packs an army to play pickup games at the local shop.


Executioners have 1A @ WS5, I5, S6 KB and are there to carve their way through heavily armoured units. Swordmasters have 2A @ WS6, I5, S5 and are there to carve open light/med units. Different battlefield roles. Also in Executioners vs Swordmasters the Executioners get re-rolls to hit and wound and the Swordmasters don't.
What constitutes a "heavily armored" or "medium armored" unit? Because here's the breaks with Swordmasters, and don't act like High Elf players haven't math-hammered this into oblivion and back a thousand times already:

We'll assume that all the units are 6 models wide. Othwerwise, we'll go by points values for ranks and numbers of attacks.

vs Chaos Warriors (T4, WS5, Sv4+)
24 White Lions: 13.5 hits, 11.25 wounds (no saves) 11.25 kills. 13.13 with MP*
24 Executioners: 9 hits, 8.75 wounds (1.5KB, no saves) 8.75 kills. 13.13 with MP*
24 SwordMasters: 18 hits, 12 wounds (6+ save) 10 kills. 11.66 with MP*
24 Black Guard: 13.5 hits, 7.88 wounds (5+ save) 5.25 kills. 7 with MP*
24 Phoenix Guard: 13.5 hits, 6.75 wounds (5+ save) 4.5 kills. 5.25 with MP*
30 Spear Elves: 18 hits, 6 wounds (4+ save) 3 kills. 3.33 with MP*
30 Dread Spears: 13.5 hits, 6 wounds (4+ save) 3 kills. 3.33 with MP*

So against what I consider to be an "armored" model like a Chaos Warrior or Saurus Warrior (between T3, Sv5+ and a 2+ Sv Knight), you can see that the High Elves have better choices for elite "can-opener" infantry, and that the White Lions obviously rule the roost within their own book. The comparison of Execs to Lions or Swordmasters without either gaining Martial/Murderous Prowess by being in a combined army is laughable - Execs can't hold their own in such situations. KB on a S6 model is wasted, as most stuff won't get a save against it anyways. It only helps with characters.
And that brings us around to the argument between the White Lions and Executioners in a combined army, both of whom are pulling the exact same numbers. Executioners are 1pt cheaper than Lions, but for that 1pt they give up:
Forest Strider
Lion Cloaks (+1Sv vs. Shooting)
Stubborn

So tell me, when both of them deal the same damage and have "Hatred: Elves", which would you take?

Now, those units against the typical Empire Statie or Goblin
(WS3, T3, Sv5+)
24 White Lions: 16 hits, 13.33 wounds (no saves) 13.33 kills. 15.55 with MP*
24 Executioners: 10.66 hits, 10.27 wounds (no saves) 10.27 kills. 15.55 with MP*
24 Swordmasters: 21.33 hits, 17.77 wounds (no saves) 17.77 kills. 20.73 with MP*
24 Black Guard: 16 hits, 18.45 wounds (6+ save) 15.37 kills. 20.49 with MP*
24 Phoenix Guard: 16 hits, 10.67 wounds (6+ save) 8.89 kills. 10.37 with MP*
30 Spear Elves: 21.33 hits, 10.67 wounds (5+ save) 7.11 kills. 8.30 with MP*
30 Dread Spears: 16 hits, 9.33 wounds (5+ save) 6.22 kills. 8.3 with MP*

Dark Elves have nothing to compare with Phoenix Guard - they fulfill their own role, their 4+ Ward makes them excellent as an "elite anvil" unit. There is the argument of whether or not you should field Phoenix Guard as an anvil, or just use a large unit of Spears in Core, but that's up to the player and can go either way (especially considering HE have Silvers and Reavers in Core, and mixed armies have Silvers, DRiders, and RXBs in Core).
Other than that, High Elves once again win out for can-opener units.
Interestingly, Dark Elves seem to be gaining the most out of this, as their units are - outside of DE vs. HE - worse at causing damage across the board. Heh, I guess my Druchii will have to take the my "Elf on a Shelf" award for this year, unless you field them in a Combined list, in which case you're still better off taking the HE choices - where they count.

Phoenix Guard vs Black Guard - One is offensive, one is defensive. The Black Guard get re-rolls to hit and wound, the Phoenix Guard get a 4+ ward.
How many times do I have to tell people that you can't test units by just tossing them against each other. It's basic scientific method: you need a constant and a variable. The unit in question is your variable (PG or BG) and their opponent is the constant. If you just compare how well a unit kills another unit, you ultimately learn nothing. For example, Executioners are extremely good at killing White Lions, but against practically any other foe in the game they are the inferior unit.

Also you are forgetting that Shades s**t all over Shadow Warriors.
Not forgetting - I just don't care.
Do High Elf armies use Shadow Warriors? Nope.
Do Dark Elf armies use Shades? Nope.
So why would a combined host use them? Especially when you have access to Deepwood Scouts and Waywatchers out of the Wood Elf book?

Now, granted, this is outside of the End Times rules.
In other words, all of that was essentially useless, as this entire thread is assuming that we're playing an End Times list.

Inside the End Times rules there is a massive difference between the qualities of High Elf and Dark Elf units which is a major factor in what to take.....

The High Elf Models are ugly as sin (Phoenix Guard are a pass). The Dark Elf Models are supermodels by comparison. And I never liked White Lions anyway.
I'm assuming that the difference is qualities and appearances was a joke. Because in regards to rules, the units are all practically identical and therefore every tiny difference (like White Lions having a ton of extra rules compared to Executioners) pretty much dictates exactly what you're going to take in an End Times army. If you're the type who allows the appearance of a model to keep you from playing it, then you're probably also not the type who even cares about optimizing your armylist, and none of this stuff applies to you. Otherwise, do as I did: convert.

And that's really the crux of the argument. The HE/DE books are so similar that when you combine lists, all you're doing is allowing players to cherry-pick the best of both books. When GW balances the books, they do it around a theme. So for Dark Elves you have a lot of focus on solid shooting, and tons of low-strength attacks and speed, but not a lot of staying power or heavy armor. With the High Elves, you get rock solid melee, at the cost of a little effectiveness everywhere else, particularly in the shooting phase. When you let players cherry-pick from these armies, you end up with an army that has - in many cases - the best unit for each particular phase in the entire game. White Lions are among the best melee troops in the game (if not the best), and Dark Riders are the best Fast Cavalry in the game by far. Repeater Crossbowmen are amongst the best in the shooting phase, Silver Helms are some of the best heavy cavalry (certainly when you consider they're Core), and you begin to paint a picture of why bending the fluff through hoops just to mix these two armies was idiotic at best.

I really have no problem with the End Times rules. Mixed Undead and mixed Chaos is no problem for me, especially if you limit their items. However, mixed Elves are well and truly broken. One of next year's GTs is being held about 20mins away from my house, and I might actually choose to pass on it, depending on how they rule the ET:Khaine book. I don't care if they allow the Undead/Chaos mixes, but the Eternity Host needs to be shot down outright.
 
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