[UnderDarkLord]

I've been reading through my 'Dex but I can't decide on an answer to this problem, and I searched the forum but found no previous topics about this, so that's why this is here. Basically, can Thousand Sons (the actual unit) Aspiring Sorcerors take more than one power, since the Mark of Tzeentch under says that ANY sorceror with MoT can take more than one power, yet the unit entry only mentions having to take one power and no option for another. I pretty much need an answer, and am leaning towards them being able to take only one power, but it isn't clear so I thought that I would ask.

 

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

It only states that models with the MoT may take an additional psychic power under the description of the Sorceror/Prince HQ. Ergo, only those models may take advantage of that clause.

 

[Left of West]

Imperialis Dominatis has the right answer for the right reason.

 

[Andusciassus]

They can only take one, but they may use it twice (Gift of Chaos) or once (if shooty) plus using the force weapon in the same turn.

 

[Left of West]

That is really not entirely accurate at all, Andusciassus.

First off, you cannot use a Force Weapon and another psychic power in the same turn. This is stated explicitly in the rules for Force Weapons. It doesn't matter than Sorcerers with the MoTz can use two powers in a turn--he can't use a Force Weapon and another power in the same turn, period. It's an entirely separate restriction from the normal, "you can only use one power per turn," restriction which the MoTz ignores.

Secondly, It is important to point out that all psychic powers are shooting attacks except where they explicitly are not. It is strictly an error to state that Gift of Chaos is not a shooting attack. Sure, it breaks a lot of the rules for shooting and it happens in a different phase. Even so, it is still bound to follow the rules for shooting weapons except where stated otherwise--the rules for psychic powers are clear on this.

No using Gift of Chaos--or any other power--twice in one turn. Period.
No using the Force Weapon's instagib power along with any other power in one turn. Period.

The Mark of Tzeentch actually just doesn't do that Aspiring Sorcerer much good at all, I'm afraid. Luckily, he's still a pretty worthwhile champion.

 

[hotspike18]

Are you sure? I am thus far under the impression that unless it says it replaces shooting a weapon that turn, then I'd allow an opponent to use it twice in those circumstances...Ah well.

I have heard that about force weapons before, so I agree with your point there as long as it's in the rulebook, I haven't taken the chance to look it up myself yet.

 

[Left of West]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's stated specifically in the rules for Psychic Powers that all psychic powers are shooting attacks unless they specifically state otherwise. As it happens, no psychic power has the phrase, "this is not a shooting attack," or any equivalent in its rules. This is unfortunate. (and you should probably check it on your own instead of just taking my word for it)

Of course, Daemon Princes (who can use two shooting attacks in the same phase) aren't really bothered by this, but it makes the Mark of Tzeentch on Sorcerers virtually useless (which really seems to indicate that it is, in fact, an oversight).

Personally, I'd be inclined to let people use Warp Time along with any other power (since Warp Time is the most divorced from a shooting attack) and maybe that Nurgle power (can't remember what it's called). The others, Wind of Chaos, Gift of Chaos, Doombolt, and Bolt of Change, really do seem to be shooting attacks, to me. Of course, strictly, using any two powers would be illegal. Them's the breaks. =/

Just play Daemon Princes.

 

[Andusciassus]

Now Left of West, a shooting attack (and any spell being counted as one) is delt with in the shootingphase. Spells that are used at an other time (movement, assault etc) are not to be counted as shootingattacks -that's what seperates Warptime and Gift of Chaos from the more common shooting-spells.

 

[Left of West]

It'd be nice if that were true, but I just don't think it is. Not only is it not the case that the definition of a shooting attack is, "an attack which happens during the shooting phase," but, as I said, the rules for psychic powers specifically define each and every psychic power as a shooting attack.

It is not enough to say, "it doesn't happen in the shooting phase, therefor it isn't a shooting attack." The rules don't support that. Rather, it is more properly described as, "a shooting attack which does not happen in the shooting phase." It's still a shooting attack, though--just as the psychic power rules tell us.

As I said, this is basically a silly rule. It clearly seems to be a result of poor writing (which leaves it in good company) along with a significant chunk of other rules. That doesn't change the fact, though, that it is a rule, and that it is against that rule for a Sorcerer to use any two psychic powers in the same turn.


edit:

Also, for the record, the Force Weapon rule is very clear, and very clearly not ignored by the MoTz. There isn't really much worthwhile debate to be had on that one.

 

[Andusciassus]

Sorry Left of West I completely disagree.
All the instead of shooting attacks do have a line saying "...used in the models shootingphase instead of shooting another weapon". Spells that don't have this line and are used in another phase and don't even have anything shootlike over them, like warptime and gift I'd dare say are not to be treated as shooty spells.
Sure you can go RAW and claim that due to the lack of an exact wording that were promised in the rulebook they should be treated as such but to me it's a moot point and just plain absurd.
"Sure it has nothing in common with a shooting attack, what so ever, but it is one still."
Nah.
May I ask you how to draw a line of sight to your own base (as when using Warptime)? It's impossible to draw a straight line from one point to itself, right?

EDIT: I even checked the book now, see what you made me do

It says on p 52 that "unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules" and since Gift of Chaos has specifications enough to make sure it's not a shooting attack (wrong turn, no to hit, no to wound, no saves, so S no AP, I dare say you can use it twice in one turn.

 

[destp]

If you're going to be that technical, the Chaos Codex actually says "but not two powers that both count as firing a weapon" (emphasis mine), not that count as a shooting attack. Additionally, the BGB does not say that psychic powers count as "firing a weapon" or even as a shooting attack, only that they are "subject to the usual Shooting rules". To hammer the point home, the second last sentence above the Perils of the Warp heading even suggests that powers that are not used in the Shooting phase are exceptions to this rule.

Now, if you took an ultra rules-lawyer approach one could maybe claim that as none of the Chaos psychic powers explicitly say they count as firing a weapon none of them fall under the MoT's restriction for using two powers, but this is clearly against the spirit of the rule.

Technically you are right about the Force Weapon issue, though to me it seems almost certainly an oversight on the part of the Codex author. That said, it's certainly something I would discuss with my opponent before a game.

Edit: Arg, Andusciassus just beat me to it.

 

[Left of West]

Nah, you wouldn't have to draw a line from one point to itself. You'd draw a line from the Sorcerer's 'eyes' to any other part of his body or base. That'd be easy.

Anyway, I certainly see your point. The fact remains that your position isn't supported by the rules.

I agree that the way you think the rules are is, in fact, the way they ought to be. There ought to not be a line in the BGB which states that all psychic powers are shooting powers, but it's there. It'd be nice if, since it is there, each psychic power were written to account for its existance--but they aren't.

Ultimately, the question really comes down to one of degree.

If I have my Sorcerer use Warp Time and Bolt of Change in the same turn, I'm cheating. Pure and simple. In fact, I frequently do have my Sorcerer use Warp Time and Bolt of Change in the same turn. It is one of the many ways that I cheat at this game (along with failing to allow enemies to target my models in combat with shooting attacks and pretending that Ordnance weapons are capable of hurting non-vehicle models, to name a couple).

It is my opinion that Warp Time is sufficiently different from a shooting power as to warrant cheating in this way.

I do not feel the same way about Gift of Chaos. It is, basically, a shooting power. You shoot someone, and they maybe die. Sure, it is both more complicated and amusing than that--it happens in a different phase and ignores a bunch of shooting rules--but it's basically taking a shot at someone.

Think about Fury of the Ancients. It breaks all sorts of the rules for shooting attacks, but we still consider it to be a shooting attack.

Simply functioning different from other shooting attacks--even to the point of being used in a different phase--is not sufficient to make a psychic power anything other than a shooting attack, and all psychic powers are shooting attacks by default.

If you want to use Gift of Chaos twice in a turn, go for it. I cheat with my psychic powers, too. I just want you--and everyone else--to know that it is cheating. You are not playing by the rules when you use Gift of Chaos twice.

If you were to play against me, I don't think that I would be inclined to let you use Gift of Chaos twice, as I think that it ought to be considered a shooting power--and the rules absolutely back me up on that (silly though they may be.)


I find that, in fact, most people only have the vaguest grasp of the rules of this game. Often, they play the game as they learned it from someone else, or by the third edition rules, with only those 4th edition rules that they happened to pick up while skimming the book. Most peoples' understandings of the rules derive from a smorgasbord of anecdotes, speculation, and 'common sense'. Most people break the rules in countless ways without ever realizing it.

I'm not telling you not to cheat--you can play the game however you want, and there is a laundry list of nigh-universal cheats which really do improve the game. I just think that people ought to know which rules they're breaking.


edit I: You'll note that destp has corrected me about the form of the rule in the BGB. You'll also note that the distinction between "all powers count as shooting attacks" and "all powers follow the rules for shooting" is irrelavent for the purposes of this discussion.

If a power follows all the rules for shooting except where stated otherwise, it cannot be used in conjunction with another such power. The rules for shooting state that you can only shoot once per turn. Following the rules for shooting would prevent you from shooting twice--even if both times, you are shooting with psychic powers.

There is no functional difference between following all the rules for something and counting as that thing. In fact, the latter is merely short-hand for the former.

The section in the Chaos Codex isn't particularly relavent, either. It either forms its own separate set of restrictions or refers to the set of restrictions discussed in the BGB. It does not replace or alter those restrictions. Regardless of what it is, the rules in the BGB hold sway.


edit II: In response to your last edit:

There is no number of changes to the rules which can denote changes to other rules. Gift of Chaos does ignore or alter a significant portion of the rules for shooting. It does not, however, ignore any that it doesn't specifically state that it ignores. That reasoning is, simply, faulty. Let me lay it out for you:

Gift of Chaos follows all the rules for shooting unless stated otherwise.
The rules for Gift of Chaos state that it ignores X,Y, and Z (where X, Y, and Z are particular rules for shooting)
Therefor Gift of Chaos does not follow any of the rules for shooting.

Obviously, this argument is invalid. The premises do not lead to the conclusion.

It is simply not the case that because Gift of Chaos ignores rules X, Y, and Z that it also ignores every other rule for shooting. Frankly, that's irrational. By definition. It is still bound by every rule for shooting except X, Y, and Z (and whatever else it explicitly ignores). It does not explicitly ignore the rule which states that models may only shoot once per turn, and so a model cannot shoot Gift of Chaos twice in a turn.

 

[Rabbit]

Of course, Daemon Princes (who can use two shooting attacks in the same phase) aren't really bothered by this, but it makes the Mark of Tzeentch on Sorcerers virtually useless (which really seems to indicate that it is, in fact, an oversight).

I'm fairly certain that the monstrous creature rule that permit princes to fire two separate weapons does not apply to psi powers. From memory, If I recall correctly, there is also something in the BGB under the rules for psychic powers, which mentions that unless otherwise stated all psychic power follow the normal rules for shooting."

 

[destp]

edit I: You'll note that destp has corrected me about the form of the rule in the BGB. You'll also note that the distinction between "all powers count as shooting attacks" and "all powers follow the rules for shooting" is irrelavent for the purposes of this discussion.

If a power follows all the rules for shooting except where stated otherwise, it cannot be used in conjunction with another such power. The rules for shooting state that you can only shoot once per turn. Following the rules for shooting would prevent you from shooting twice--even if both times, you are shooting with psychic powers.

There is no functional difference between following all the rules for something and counting as that thing. In fact, the latter is merely short-hand for the former.

The section in the Chaos Codex isn't particularly relavent, either. It either forms its own separate set of restrictions or refers to the set of restrictions discussed in the BGB. It does not replace or alter those restrictions. Regardless of what it is, the rules in the BGB hold sway.

I'm fairly certain that the monstrous creature rule that permit princes to fire two separate weapons does not apply to psi powers. From memory, If I recall correctly, there is also something in the BGB under the rules for psychic powers, which mentions that unless otherwise stated all psychic power follow the normal rules for shooting."

Quite right, and this is why the distinction I mentioned in the BGB is in fact relevant. The statements 'counts as a shooting attack' and 'following all the normal shooting rules' are not infact functionally equivalent. The former indicates that these two things X (shooting attacks) and Y (psychic powers) are actually the same (X=Y) and anything that would then apply to one applies to the other. The latter on the other hand, indicates that while X and Y are not necessarily equivalent Y does follow the normal rules for X (unless specified otherwise) and is essentially a short cut around repeating the shooting rules with 'psychic power' replacing all references to actual shooting.

This is importnant because it means that other rules (ie, those not part of the 'normal shooting rules') that refer to and in some way modify/interact with X (shooting attacks) do not apply to Y unless specifically stated. One example of this is the rule about MCs being able to fire two weapons; this rule is an exception to the normal shooting rules and applies to firing a weapon/making a shooting attack. As using a psychic power does is not 'firing a weapon' (even though it usually follows many if not all of the same rules) MCs do not have the ability to use to psychic powers.

The same applies to models with the MoT, they have an exception to the normal psychic power rules which allows them to use two psychic powers as long as both of those powers do not count as 'firing a weapon'. How do you know if a psychic power counts as firing a weapon? It says so in the power's profile. There is no blanket statement that says that all psychic power count as firing a weapon, just that their use follows the same rules that firing weapons normally follow, unless there is a specific exception relating to psychic powers generally (such as MoT), or the psychic power being used.

 

[Platypus]

Ok a few points here, psycic powers never count as a ‘shooting attack’, but rather as Andusciassus & destp pointed out all psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules.

It says on p 52 that "unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules" and since Gift of Chaos has specifications enough to make sure it's not a shooting attack (wrong turn, no to hit, no to wound, no saves, so S no AP, I dare say you can use it twice in one turn.

This may seem like an insignificant difference, but it is actually an important one. If the rule did say that psychic powers counted as a shooting attack, then any rule that caused it to not be used in the shooting phase could be used as an argument for ignoring other shooting rules; however, this is not the case. The rules stat that psychic powers follow the usual shooting rules (unless specified otherwise), this terminology clearly states that if a specific shooting rule is overridden by a psychic power but it would still be subject to the other shooting rules.

The rule in the chaos codex on P.88 (first paragraph) that states that:
Paraphrased:
a psycher can only use one psychic power per turn unless they have the mark of Tzeentch which can use 2 powers per turn (but not two powers that both count as firing a weapon…)

As I stated above the BGB NEVER states that using a psychic power counts as “firing a weapon”, rather it states that “psychic powers must follow all the usual rules for shooting”. The Chaos Codex specifically outlines that some of its psycic powers “are used in the shooting phase instead of firing a ranged weapon” which counts as firing a weapon.

Now as for the Aspiring Sorcerer using gift twice in the same turn, I would argue that this is not allowed since the rule on P.88 that I paraphrased above states that you “can use up to 2 powers per player turn” not the same power twice. The terminology of 2 powers IMO clearly states that you can not use the same power twice, you may argue that I am being nit picky about the rules here, but I truly believe that is how it was intended.

edit I: You'll note that destp has corrected me about the form of the rule in the BGB. You'll also note that the distinction between "all powers count as shooting attacks" and "all powers follow the rules for shooting" is irrelavent for the purposes of this discussion.

If a power follows all the rules for shooting except where stated otherwise, it cannot be used in conjunction with another such power. The rules for shooting state that you can only shoot once per turn. Following the rules for shooting would prevent you from shooting twice--even if both times, you are shooting with psychic powers.

There is no functional difference between following all the rules for something and counting as that thing. In fact, the latter is merely short-hand for the former.

It is the same difference as “Instant Death” & “Killed Outright”, while they have the same functional effect when it comes to how they relate to other rules there is a difference. There is a difference between “follow the usual rules for shooting” & “counts as a shooting attack”, all of your arguments thus far are based purely upon RAW (which I have no problem with); however, it seems like you are taking a 180 when you argue that “follow the usual rules for shooting” & “counts as a shooting attack” are the same.

Technically you are right about the Force Weapon issue, though to me it seems almost certainly an oversight on the part of the Codex author. That said, it's certainly something I would discuss with my opponent before a game.

I also completely agree with you here, while the rules support force weapons not being able to be used in conjunction with any psychic powers, I do not believe this was the intention; however, that is a very dangerous road to travel down of trying to interpret intentions over rules as written.

For the MoT Deamon Prince, I am not so sure on this. The first paragraph on P.88 implies that if a model can shoot 2 weapons in the shooting phase then it could use 2 shooting psychic powers (though they would have to target the same unit).

 

[Left of West]

Hm. Yeah, actually, I do see the difference. I had this big, long argument written out, but, basically, I couldn't finish it.

So, this is how it boils down, right?

A psychic power follows all the rules for shooting, but is not a shooting attack.

The rules for shooting state that you can only make one shooting attack per turn.

But, since the psychic power isn't actually a shooting attack (its behaviour is governed in the same way, but that's all) it doesn't take your one shooting attack 'slot'.

Similarly, since it isn't a weapon, the rules which allow Monstrous Creatures to fire multiple weapons doesn't allow a Daemon Prince to 'fire' two psychic powers--since the rule in the codex states that a psycker with the mark of Tzeentch may not use two 'instead of another shooting attack' powers at once.


That actually (surprisingly) makes sense to me, and I'm inclined to agree with you, if, in fact, that is your reasoning.

I'm still right about the Force Weapons, though.

 

[Platypus]

Hm. Yeah, actually, I do see the difference. I had this big, long argument written out, but, basically, I couldn't finish it.
So, this is how it boils down, right?
A psychic power follows all the rules for shooting, but is not a shooting attack.
The rules for shooting state that you can only make one shooting attack per turn.
But, since the psychic power isn't actually a shooting attack (its behaviour is governed in the same way, but that's all) it doesn't take your one shooting attack 'slot'.

Exactly…but only the Chaos powers of: Gift of Chaos & Warp Time do not take the shooting attack ‘slot’ the others do since they replace the option to shoot a weapon.

Similarly, since it isn't a weapon, the rules which allow Monstrous Creatures to fire multiple weapons doesn't allow a Daemon Prince to 'fire' two psychic powers--since the rule in the codex states that a psycker with the mark of Tzeentch may not use two 'instead of another shooting attack' powers at once.

Ok now I am leaning the other direction in regards to this, just humor me for a sec and follow my logic then if you still disagree then I would love to hear why this doesn’t work.

Ok so there are several rules here:
1) BGB: You can only use one psychic power per turn
2) BGB: You can only shoot one weapon in the shooting phase
3) BGB: Monstrous Creatures can shoot 2 weapons in the shooting phase (though not the same weapon twice)
4) Chaos: Models with the MoT can attempt to use 2 psychic powers per turn.
5) Chaos: Models with the MoT can not attempt to use 2 powers that both count as shooting a weapon because of rule 2 above (according to P.88 of the chaos codex first paragraph)

Therefore Since Monstrous Creatures with the MoT don’t follow rule 2 above (the follow rule 3) they could in fact use 2 psychic powers that count as weapons because the are able to use 2 psychic powers per turn and fire 2 weapons per turn.

I'm still right about the Force Weapons, though.

Sadly, yes you are still correct on this, though I don’t think that it was the intent for it to be like that.

 

[destp]

Now as for the Aspiring Sorcerer using gift twice in the same turn, I would argue that this is not allowed since the rule on P.88 that I paraphrased above states that you “can use up to 2 powers per player turn” not the same power twice. The terminology of 2 powers IMO clearly states that you can not use the same power twice, you may argue that I am being nit picky about the rules here, but I truly believe that is how it was intended.

This is actually how I initially read it too, I'd never actually even considered the possibility before I saw Andusciassus suggest it. However, upon looking again I couldn't see anything that definitevely stated the two powers must be different and at that stage I thought it might confuse the issue more then help, so I kept it to myself.

 

[Platypus]

Well IMO the phrase that states “Can use up to 2 powers per turn” indicates that they must be different powers. Think of it this way, if I use gift of chaos twice in the same turn then how many powers did I use that turn? The answer is one, while I used gift of chaos twice, I still only used one power. It doesn’t state that you can use two psychic effects per turn, or something like that. It specifically states powers, which grammatically means that they are separate.

 

[Left of West]

Exactly…but only the Chaos powers of: Gift of Chaos & Warp Time do not take the shooting attack ‘slot’ the others do since they replace the option to shoot a weapon.

Right, of course.

Ok now I am leaning the other direction in regards to this, just humor me for a sec and follow my logic then if you still disagree then I would love to hear why this doesn’t work.

Ok so there are several rules here:
1) BGB: You can only use one psychic power per turn
2) BGB: You can only shoot one weapon in the shooting phase
3) BGB: Monstrous Creatures can shoot 2 weapons in the shooting phase (though not the same weapon twice)
4) Chaos: Models with the MoT can attempt to use 2 psychic powers per turn.
5) Chaos: Models with the MoT can not attempt to use 2 powers that both count as shooting a weapon because of rule 2 above (according to P.88 of the chaos codex first paragraph)

Therefore Since Monstrous Creatures with the MoT don’t follow rule 2 above (the follow rule 3) they could in fact use 2 psychic powers that count as weapons because the are able to use 2 psychic powers per turn and fire 2 weapons per turn.

Monstrous Creatures do get to ignore rule 2, but that doesn't seem to allow them to ignore rule 5. A rule is still a rule, regardless of why it was written. Your argument takes a form similar to this:

X therefor Y
Not X, therefor not Y.

This is a classic blunder (though not a perfect analogy). The fact that rule 2 results in rule 5 doesn't mean that rule 5 ceases to apply when rule 2 does.

Anyway, I'd have to read the rule again to say for certain. I put that in there because some people above had made the claim that monstrous creatures could not use two psychic powers. I wrote what seemed like a reasonable...reason...for that conclusion to see if that was, in fact, how those other people had come to their conclusion.

Sadly, yes you are still correct on this, though I don’t think that it was the intent for it to be like that.

No, probably not. Take heart; it'll be fixed in fifth!


edit:
On the issue of using the same psychic power twice, doesn't the rule for the Mark actually say that an affected model may make two psychic tests per phase? Does it actually say, "...may use two powers?" I mean, the latter wording would seem to support Platypus' point (though not very conclusively) but the former doesn't seem to support it, at all, and I remember it being more in line with the former.