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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings and Salutations,

This is a project that I've worked off and on for a number of years (well, thought about at least) but the joke has always been that the real DE codex would come out before I actually ever started this project seriously. Hence, to prove such comments wrong, here it is :3 I've been playtesting it for the last month and my friends and are very pleased with it although it still has a lot of work to do.

First though, I have to give a Special Thanks (the caps are important) to fellow Librarium member Serbi for help with play-testing and balancing.. An extra thanks to Krovin-Rezh from whom I've stolen a few ideas from.

In any case, the codex was built with two goals in mind:
- Make every force organization slot have multiple viable choices: Right now, you see almost nothing but Archons/Dracons as HQs, Wyches as elites, Warriors as troops, no FAs, and then Ravagers (or rarely talos) as Heavy Support. Although there is some variation, many lists consist of just that. Grotesques, Hellions, Mandrakes, Warp Beasts, and Scourges almost never get used. Talos and Reaver Jetbikes get used occasionally but not often. So this goal is to not only improve those units but to make them a competitive choice when compared to the "standards." This also includes making units more unique from eachother and the units of other armies.
- Increase the number of options available to support a wide variety of play styles: Right now, Dark Eldar (like their Craftworld cousins) are highly specialized in a given role. This isn't a bad thing, per se but DE are focused in fewer areas then Craftworld Eldar are. This tends to limit the number of potential strategies a DE list can be built for and makes lists fairly static (once you get a good list for a points value, there is often little incentive to change it.). So the goal is to let units have more options. Unit's will still be specialized generally but there will be more variety of things they can specialize in.

With those two goals in mind, I went and built this codex revision. The posted revision has been play tested but not as extensively as I would wish (since every player has a different play style and it is hard to test other styles by yourself). Here is a brief overview of the changes and additions (as well as their reasoning).

New Codex: Version 3 (Version 1 and 2 were internal releases): MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

General
The army wide rules of slave capturing and always being the attacker have been removed. Although they both have significant fluff reasons for being included, I was unable to think of an elegant/simple and interesting way to do it that wouldn't be complicated. I briefly considered adding something similar to Kroven's "Soul Points" but I decided that it would probably be best to avoid abstract numbers that have to be tracked on a piece of paper or something. Also due to general depreciation of Fleet, more units have it or those that already have it have had their points (slightly) decreased. Also, the standard style of codexes now means I had to remove the wargear page and split it among the various units. The only other major change is that a lot of ICs have been given a CC weapon and a pistol baseline and many units have been given plasma grenades either for free or at low cost. The last major change is a lack of a mechanical difference between a Wych Cult and a Cabal list (similar to how the Marine codex lost chapter traits and Chaos lost chaos god specific rules).

To Do List: Another past on overall points costs, still need to do Special Characters.

HQ
One of our most solid choices in the original codex, there wasn't a whole lot that needed to be changed. My goal with them was to make them more differentiated and interesting, especially the Dark Eldar Lord (which doesn't do anything interesting on his own). He was given a special ability to re-roll a number (1 or 2) of your reserves each turn and then pick the one you want to use. This lets you bring units in sooner OR let you delay them to later. Haemonculi have been moved to a unit leader for grotesques and in their place an improved one with "apprentice" haemonculi has been added as an HQ option.

These give players three options for their armies: A tactical HQ (DE Lord), An assault HQ (Wych Lord), and a Shooty/Tough HQ (Haemonculi Master). Also, Wych Lords were given their own unique retinue as their "incubi equivalent." Basically improved wyches.

To Do List: More playtesting for Haemonculi Lord and Wych Lord Retinue.

Elites
With Wyches being changed to a troop choices, Elites had become the weakest of of our force organization slots. As such, it has some of the most extensive revisions. Grotesques remain mostly identical to their standard incarnation but now come with a Haemonculi as a unit leader. Mandrakes have been completely redesigned but have kept their "OMG where did they come from?" fluff concept. In addition to actually having upgrade options, their special deployment option has changed. Now it effectively ambushes units that try to outflank or come in from reserve. Then there are two completely new units:

Warp Sniper: It is a traditional sniper-type unit but with a twist. If the unit's sybarite forgos firing, you can choose a location within 12" and line of sight and use that as the point of origin for the rest of the units firing. This effectively lets you fire around corners and pull all kinds of funny tricks. The ability works (fluff wise) by opening a small webway portal which the rest of the unit fires out of. However the downside is that it is hard to fire from a tiny hole like that so the unit's BS is decreased to 3.

Nightmare Weaver: Probably the most controversial (fluff wise) of the new units, this is actually a Dark Eldar Psyker. Yes, I am aware that the fluff says "psykers are considered playthings by other Dark Eldar." However, above all, Dark Eldar are practical: A Nightmare Weaver is a Psyker that has shown to the other DE that they are more valuable as a tool then as a toy. Their powers revolve around the DE standards of fear and shadows. One of their most subtly powerful ability is their ability to remove the fearless ability from a single unit. As an IC, they'll generally be attacked to another unit (often an assault unit) and used to help break whatever unit they attack.

To Do List: Grotesques still need work, need more playtesting for redone Mandrakes.

Troops
Due to 5th editions emphasis on troop choices, the options here have been expanded the most. Wyches have been moved to being troop choices and have had their cost reduced a fair amount (since they aren't good at holding objectives due to being weak to shooting and also having to compete against other good options). Warriors got a slight decrease in model cost but an increase in the cost of Dark Lances. Also, all warrior units can take a Raider but you can only have a second special/heavy weapon if the unit is 10 models or more. Additionally, warriors have the option of swapping their rifle for a CC wep and Pistol to make them a decent CC unit. Warp Beasts are basically the same but can be taken as MUCH larger units and have scout. Warp Beast are intended to either take out enemy units hiding in the back or to sneak up on the objective, sit there, and then be fat.

To Do List: Warp Beasts might need a max unit size decrease or something.

Fast Attack
This was traditionally our weakest slot which is ironic because we are such a fast army to begin with. Reavers are mostly unchanged but their succubus options have been altered a bit. Hellions got a fairly large change, however. Instead of being a deep strike unit, they now have scout and their ranged weapon is assault 1 instead of rapid fire (to facilitate hit and run tactics). They can also take some alternate ranged weapons options. Two new FA choices have been added:

Peluda Squadron: These are our Piranna or viper equivalents. They're fast, short ranged but come armed with Destructors. They are exceptional anti-infantry units and can be upgraded so that they can fire the same thing but as an 18" blast instead. Comes with all the standard vehicle upgrades. Fluff wise they are piloted by Haemonculi.

Webrunner Squadron: This is our war walker equivalent/warp spider equivalent (about the size of a tau stealth suit) that can freely move in and out of the webway. They come with boring regular CC weapons but can be upgraded with DCCWs or Twin-Linked ranged weapons (Blaster, Splinter Cannon, or Shredder). They have the special ability to teleport accurately within 24." However, it works differently: When activating their teleporting power you declare a direction and a distance of up to 24." THEN you measure and place them. This makes it so that if you are good at guessing distances, they are really powerful. However if you aren't very good, then you'll often have to under (or over) guess distances to make sure you don't hit anything. After teleporting, they can't assault and firing is at half range.

To Do List: Take another look at Reavers and Hellions; Figure out a better way to word Webrunner's teleport ability.

Heavy Support
A number of revisions and two units. Scourges are mostly the same but they have been given relentless and have had their special weapons increased in cost. This allows them as a massive surprise (4 DLs to the rear armor say hello) but they are limited by being expensive and VERY fragile. Ravagers are basically unchanged and the Talos has been given alternate tail options to customize it's utility. Also the basic tail gun has been changed to something similar to the Monolith "shoot everything in range" gun instead of the super confusing original rule. New Unit:

Dark Star Nebula: (Sometimes Black Star, haven't decided which). Basically, it is an upgraded Shadow Ring (Similar to how a Ravager is an upgraded Raider, see Dedicated Transports Section) that is surrounded by a cloud of satellites and an advanced Night Shield. It can either fire all its weak (but good AP) guns at multiple units within 12" or it can forgo some/all of those shots to fire a single but MUCH STRONGER weapon. At lowest power, the main gun is 24" S6 AP2 Lance. Enough to glance armor 12, pop armor 10, or pop an infantry model. At maximum power the gun is 48" S10 AP2 Lance, Enough pop the strongest armor. Dark Star Nebulas are tough (but not high armor) and slower then a normal DE vehicle but provide long range support (Fluff wise, they are used to bust holes in the side of hives or similar when attacking them).

Razer: This unit serves one purpose: Smash in to something and dump troops on it. It's a transport but it can't be taken as a dedicated one. It is an effective tank shock unit and if used to ram a vehicle (which will likely destroy it), all the troops will get unloaded and be ready to either dart for cover or assault something near by.

To Do List: I don't really like the Razer but I don't know what to do with it. Newest iteration of Dark Star Nebula needs play testing (recently gone through a major revision).

Dedicated Transports
Raiders have seen a fairly major revision with many new options and a slight points cost decrease. Their most unusual upgrade option is the ability to be upgraded in to a Pillager, a slightly higher armor tank variant that is designed in a "Smash and Grab" style. Generally too expensive to be used for most units, it might be worth it for high priority units (Lord + Retinue, quite often). Warriors also have been giving a new Transport that only they can take:

Shadow Ring: Slower then a raider but cheaper and comes with a Night Shield. It is about the size (radius) of a Drop Pod and serves as a weapons platform for warriors used for a mobile bunker and for capturing objectives. It has the additional ability that if it move at combat speed (6" or less), then the units inside can fire as though it were stationary. This makes it great for shooty warriors but really bad for assaulty warriors. Additionally, it doesn't have the raider's ability to suddenly swoop in and contest/capture an objective with a 24" move.

To Do: More pillager testing; Shadow Ring probably needs a points increase.

Wargear and Weapons:Most wargear has kept it's original functionality where able and others have been reworded to work in the newest edition. Some major changes:
Combat Drugs: Clarified on what it does when giving to an IC on a jetbike or skyboard.
Gruesome Talisman: Now adds a single wound to the calculation when determining which side won or lost combat. Very similar to what the old one did (in effect) but more powerful in practice.
Hellmask: 5+ now instead of a 6.
Trophy Spike: Infantry version of a Trophy Rack (renamed to avoid confusion). Also, in addition to increase the LD of the unit, it also lowers the LD of enemies.
Webway Beacon and Webway Portal: Two parts of the same thing as part of the Webway Portal revision. Now WWP are placed automatically at the start of the game (scattered similar to deep strike) and you still don't enter until the second turn at the earliest (so it gives opponents a turn to react). Now, when a unit enters play via WWP, it is simply placed within 6" of the WWP marker. It is treated as having moved 12" but may do any other action.
Dark Star Engine: Stolen from Krovin. Increases the Flat Out speed of the vehicle in return for an increased chance of blowing up when it is destroyed.
Lobotomiser: Basically a kind of ranged Agonizer. Very short range but a powerful punch. Mostly to give some units an additional ranged weapon option.

To Do List: Lobotomiser's are kind of odd man out right now. Gruesome Talismans might need a point cost increase.



Over all, the people I have tested this against have said that they've liked the changes but Serbi suggested that I post it here so that the Librarium members can give it a proper vetting. I suggest being careful of your first reactions regarding some of the changes because some seem more powerful then they are and vice versa. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Not that there's anything wrong with your Rewrite (In fact, I haven't read it yet because I'm short on time) but you might be interested in having a look at Krovin-Rezh's Fandex which can be found here.

He did some pretty good stuff IMO.

edit: oops, on second reading it appears you have already seen it :p
 

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Thanks for pointing to me as inspiration. But more importantly, thanks for trying to help improve our army's rules!

Reading through, I've noticed the following:

HQs
• Love the tactical aspect of the Archon & Dracon.
• Can't have an Archon & an Archite?
• Incubi with fleet? For the points, it seems fair, but I've always like the strategic choice involved. The concept of 3+ armor taking away fleet is also present in the CWE codex FYI. But they exploit it better by using 4+ armor more often.
• I like mixing a few expensive Incubi with a bunch of cheap Warriors in my retinues. But if you prefer only Incubi, more power to ya'.
• Make sure you mention how many of the special weapons can be taken from the options.
• Special Wych retinue? Awesome! Love the two-tiered drugs concept.
• Master Haemonculus. I don't quite get your vision here. It's a tougher Haemie with Grotesques with pistols that don't have FNP?

ELITES
• Adding 7 more Grotesques technically only costs +25 pts. Don't forget the "each" or "per model." But I like the Haemie included.
• Cool idea for anti-reserves with the Mandrakes. Problem is, they are still not all very good at CC, and Wyches can be much more effective for the points.
• Nightmare Weaver. Love the powers (especially Consume Soul), not sure about going against fluff. What you could do here is just not call the "psychic powers" and make them some other unearthly power bestowed upon the character. Perhaps deviate from normal psyker rules a little to have it make sense (and simplified). Actually, there would be some cool benefits from doing so, especially when facing Farseers ;)
• False Retribution. Is that one of your allies or one of the enemy's?
• Warp Snipers (not Spiders!). Pretty cool, although they are expensive. 4+ armor or an invul save would be welcome imo. Warp Shot is a neat trick if there's some good cover around. I'll be taking Phase Mines every time.

TROOPS
• Gotta' love huge packs of Warp Beasts. Nice tweak of the Beastmaster rules. Scouts is a nice touch.
• 10 pts seems cheap for a model that can go mano a mano with some really nasty CC units. I've actually found their costs to be about right in the codex, except that I give them free plasmanades.
• I don't have a problem with 7 pt Warriors, surprisingly. 8 seems fine if we can make them useful.
• What's a Shadow Ring transport?

FAST ATTACK
• Peludas replace the Reaver Haemie, being better at shooting and for the pts & KP. But now I can't use my cool Haemie model :(
• Reavers are CC-oriented. Include plasmanades on them for free imho.
• Hellions are not all that and a bag of potato chips, especially now that their save is cover and not invulnerable.
• Jump drives are too restrictive by halving ranges. Webrunners are all good otherwise.
• Damnation Crystal. Sounds like you could spam it and get an unfair advantage, KP missions in particular. However, if you make their benefits go away when they are destroyed, I think it could work. Destroyed? No extra KP and no additional objective. Make them worth no KP if destroyed to even out the advantage/disadvantage of shooting at them.

HEAVY SUPPORT
• Black Star Constellation is a cool idea, solving the problem of low AV with cheap squadrons. Worth it for the lance array. Perhaps bring the pulse lance to AP3 or 4 for balance depending on playtests. Also be careful with the price of additional Satellites, they are probably on the cheap side.
• Razer sounds like a dedicated transport instead of a heavy support choice.

WARGEAR
• Hell masks nerfed from needing a 6 to a 5+?
• Lobotomizer = funny name, but cool idea :) perhaps increase the cost 5 or 10 points depending on playtesting. It should be a rare weapon I would think.
• Nightmare doll might as well be an army rule b/c I think I'd take it all the time.
• Haywires can be cheaper (2-3 pts) because glancing hits do less damage in 5th edition.
• Terrorfex gets a -1 Ld bonus even if it only hits one model? This gear should actually be nerfed (something I need to do as well), because it was more balanced when partials were hit on a 4+.
• Does a trophy spike stack with other trophy spikes?
• Hellglaive is listed as either S3 or S4 depending on where you look.

VEHICLE UPGRADES
• Canopy. Easy to take, hard to model. I'm assuming you can take it on Raiders ;)
• You nerfed night shields against melta. Me no likey.


Congrats on the good work so far.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the response :)

HQs
• Love the tactical aspect of the Archon & Dracon.
• Can't have an Archon & an Archite?
• Incubi with fleet? For the points, it seems fair, but I've always like the strategic choice involved. The concept of 3+ armor taking away fleet is also present in the CWE codex FYI. But they exploit it better by using 4+ armor more often.
• I like mixing a few expensive Incubi with a bunch of cheap Warriors in my retinues. But if you prefer only Incubi, more power to ya'.
• Make sure you mention how many of the special weapons can be taken from the options.
• Special Wych retinue? Awesome! Love the two-tiered drugs concept.
• Master Haemonculus. I don't quite get your vision here. It's a tougher Haemie with Grotesques with pistols that don't have FNP?


- The Archon vs Archite is more of a fluff carryover then balance reasons.
- Honestly, I haven't noticed a huge difference in how powerful incubi are by giving them fleet. Everything can run now and it makes just as much fluff sense to give them fleet (they are normal Deldar, after all) as it is to NOT give them fleet (heavier armor).
- The main reason I dumped the ability to mix warriors and incubi in the same retinue was mostly because of a personal dislike of mixed units. One or two models is rarely an issue (especially if one of them is an HQ) but a full unit of mixed troops is more of an annoyance then anything. Besides, my personal experience in 5th is that warriors just drag the unit down in assault due to combat being about wounds inflicted/received rather then out numbering.
- The Master Haemonculus himself is basically a haemonculus who has (like most haemonculi, presumably) experimented on himself so extensively that he is extremely difficult to kill. The apprentices are simply normal haemonculi that are training under him rather then off leading a Grotesque unit or piloting a Peluda.

ELITES
• Adding 7 more Grotesques technically only costs +25 pts. Don't forget the "each" or "per model." But I like the Haemie included.
• Cool idea for anti-reserves with the Mandrakes. Problem is, they are still not all very good at CC, and Wyches can be much more effective for the points.
• Nightmare Weaver. Love the powers (especially Consume Soul), not sure about going against fluff. What you could do here is just not call the "psychic powers" and make them some other unearthly power bestowed upon the character. Perhaps deviate from normal psyker rules a little to have it make sense (and simplified). Actually, there would be some cool benefits from doing so, especially when facing Farseers ;)
• False Retribution. Is that one of your allies or one of the enemy's?
• Warp Snipers (not Spiders!). Pretty cool, although they are expensive. 4+ armor or an invul save would be welcome imo. Warp Shot is a neat trick if there's some good cover around. I'll be taking Phase Mines every time.
- From the limited play testing I've done with Mandrakes, I've seen them do either of the two following effectively: Tying up an enemy infantry unit attempting to outflank me; Alternately I load them up with Heywire Grenades and have them nuke a vehicle as it comes on the board. But you're still right, they aren't particularly lethal.
- Hmm... I'll consider the Nightmare Weaver change. Personally, I like the idea of them being "the Psyker that survived DE Society."
- False Retribution is intended to force one of your opponents units to attack one of your own units. This seems like not a useful ability but it's intended to divert attacks away from vulnerable targets (such as wyches out in the open) towards a less vulnerable one (such as a talos or grotesque unit).
- I probably won't give them an invulnerable save or 4+ armor but I might consider stealth. So far, survivability hasn't been their problem. Also, Phase Mines (although good) aren't as good as they seem. They are more a intimidation ability. It causes opponents (the players themselves) to play differently until the mines go off since they don't want to send a rhino full of marines off by themselves if they are just going to get nuked by the mines at the wrong moment. Alternately, it occasionally causes opponents to play MORE aggressively which we can also exploit.

TROOPS
• Gotta' love huge packs of Warp Beasts. Nice tweak of the Beastmaster rules. Scouts is a nice touch.
• 10 pts seems cheap for a model that can go mano a mano with some really nasty CC units. I've actually found their costs to be about right in the codex, except that I give them free plasmanades.
• I don't have a problem with 7 pt Warriors, surprisingly. 8 seems fine if we can make them useful.
• What's a Shadow Ring transport?
- Wyches already have free plasma grenades, if that's what you were saying.
- I've been considering bumping warriors back up to 8 since they are literally one of our strongest units. I have a hard time justifying taking wyches over them (or warp beasts) sometimes.
- Shadow Ring was mentioned in the dedicated transport section.

FAST ATTACK
• Peludas replace the Reaver Haemie, being better at shooting and for the pts & KP. But now I can't use my cool Haemie model :(
• Reavers are CC-oriented. Include plasmanades on them for free imho.
• Hellions are not all that and a bag of potato chips, especially now that their save is cover and not invulnerable.
• Jump drives are too restrictive by halving ranges. Webrunners are all good otherwise.
• Damnation Crystal. Sounds like you could spam it and get an unfair advantage, KP missions in particular. However, if you make their benefits go away when they are destroyed, I think it could work. Destroyed? No extra KP and no additional objective. Make them worth no KP if destroyed to even out the advantage/disadvantage of shooting at them.
- Plasma Grenades for reavers free? Done. :3
- Hellions are a surprisingly good unit at times from the limited amount of testing I've done with the new version. Jump Infantry + Scout means 1st turn assaults and flanking maneuvers out of reserve to pop tanks with blasters in the rear.
- Jump Drives are super restrictive because they are so exceptionally good. Although not as reliable in the later parts of the game, in the first turn or so you can easily guess exactly how far away an enemy is based on deployment rules and how far it moved (you can still do this later but it gets harder and harder). Also, I've only rarely had problems with jump drives actually stopping the unit from shooting what I was after.
- I haven't had a whole lot of playtesting with the Crystals yet. It was implied (although I should specifically say thus) that they aren't an objective if they are destroyed. However, I'll have to see whether you should keep the extra KP if the crystals are destroyed or not.

HEAVY SUPPORT
• Black Star Constellation is a cool idea, solving the problem of low AV with cheap squadrons. Worth it for the lance array. Perhaps bring the pulse lance to AP3 or 4 for balance depending on playtests. Also be careful with the price of additional Satellites, they are probably on the cheap side.
• Razer sounds like a dedicated transport instead of a heavy support choice.
- Oops, that's the old version of the Dark Star. The newer version is no longer a squadron because the squadron was literally almost impossible to kill. The newer version instead has pseudo-satellites. The Pulse Lance is just another weapon of the Dark Star itself that fires independently and you can lower it's rate of fire to fire the Lance Array instead. Also, the unit has a psudo-cover save where any penetrating or glancing hit will instead lower the RoF of the Pulse Lance by 1 instead of it's normal damage results. Also, the unit comes with a Night Shield free.
- Again, I don't know what to do with the Razer. I don't really like it but I felt HS needed another option focusing on assaulting stuff.

WARGEAR
• Hell masks nerfed from needing a 6 to a 5+?
• Lobotomizer = funny name, but cool idea :) perhaps increase the cost 5 or 10 points depending on playtesting. It should be a rare weapon I would think.
• Nightmare doll might as well be an army rule b/c I think I'd take it all the time.
• Haywires can be cheaper (2-3 pts) because glancing hits do less damage in 5th edition.
• Terrorfex gets a -1 Ld bonus even if it only hits one model? This gear should actually be nerfed (something I need to do as well), because it was more balanced when partials were hit on a 4+.
• Does a trophy spike stack with other trophy spikes?
• Hellglaive is listed as either S3 or S4 depending on where you look.

- Hellmasks were nerfed mostly at the suggestion of Serbi (blame him blame him!).
- Nightmare Dolls are good but I've noticed that quite a bit of the time I actually want to go second rather then first (so that I can do a final swoop towards objectives).
- I've been considering lowering the price of the Heywire grenade but haven't really felt the need yet. Although they probably should be.
- Terrorfexes were changed mostly to make them work identically to Horrorfexs and the Xenospasm. Also, Terrorfexes have always been kind of an odd duck from my experience. Horrorfexes were always a given to take but Terrorfexes generally aren't. I could probably do a whole article about my reasonings though.
- Right now, Yes. Trophy Spikes do stack with Trophy spikes although I should probably change that.
- Doh, stupid revision typos. Hellglaive shots are supposed to be ... I can't honestly remember XD. Probably 4.

VEHICLE UPGRADES
• Canopy. Easy to take, hard to model. I'm assuming you can take it on Raiders ;)
• You nerfed night shields against melta. Me no likey.
- Actually, Canopies can only be taken by the Shadow Ring. With Shadow Rings, it makes you have to choose between having the vehicle be a dedicated Special Weapons platform (due to low number of fire points) or a more generic fire platform (without the canopy). With Raiders it would probably be too good because the old "Gun Boat" role has been mostly subsumed by the Shadow Ring and it would ruin the Raiders primary roll as an assault transport. I probably could do it, but for style reasons I really don't want to =\
- Firstly, I was under the impression that they worked that way anyway and was just clarifying. Secondly, it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference. If a melta is within range, the vehicle is probably going to die anyway =p
 

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Scourge Lord
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Well Serbi, you have to remember that it takes a failed morale check to even use the hell mask ability. So yes it is very hard to cause a wound when that happens, but the event is rare in the first place (especially with Khorne CC units and many others often being fearless).

Never mind what I said about the canopy, I just didn't see the dedicated transport section somehow when I first looked at your revisions. As for the meltas, they actually get a straight -6" to that range as well. If a meltagun hits an AV10 open-topped Raider, you still have a 25% chance they'll not penetrate or do not enough damage to destroy it. Give that meltagun 2D6 for penetration and that 25% goes down to almost no chance at all.

Just to throw some ideas around...
The Razer sounds like a smaller, cheaper transport meant for breaking up the enemy's formation with ramming or tank shocking. That screams fast attack to me, but in this army, that could also mean a transport for just about any infantry unit. Capacity 5 or 6 would make this a nice little way to charge an HQ into an enemy position, or you could even use it for your Warp Snipers.

The Shadow Ring sounds like a firing platform that trades away the speed of a Raider for extra protection (which admittedly isn't saying much with regards to DE armor). What you could do to make this thing unique is to make it larger and tougher, as a focal point unit. If it could transport 20 models, maybe including walkers and jump infantry, and if it had a lesser form of shadow field tech like Vect's (say AV12 or 13), it would be just that. But I would advise making it a Heavy Support choice, giving it a gun, and making it more expensive than a Ravager (150-200 pts) if you do this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Never mind what I said about the canopy, I just didn't see the dedicated transport section somehow when I first looked at your revisions. As for the meltas, they actually get a straight -6" to that range as well. If a meltagun hits an AV10 open-topped Raider, you still have a 25% chance they'll not penetrate or do not enough damage to destroy it. Give that meltagun 2D6 for penetration and that 25% goes down to almost no chance at all.
Although true, I really don't see that as being a major hang up. Mathhammer aside, it just makes sense balance wise. Yeah it's better the other way but Night Shields are exceptionally good already.

Just to throw some ideas around...
The Razer sounds like a smaller, cheaper transport meant for breaking up the enemy's formation with ramming or tank shocking. That screams fast attack to me, but in this army, that could also mean a transport for just about any infantry unit. Capacity 5 or 6 would make this a nice little way to charge an HQ into an enemy position, or you could even use it for your Warp Snipers.
Hmm... I'll have to think about it. I really don't think the 'dex needs another FA but it did kinda of need another "assaulty" HS choice to balance out the Ravager and the Dark Star.

The Shadow Ring sounds like a firing platform that trades away the speed of a Raider for extra protection (which admittedly isn't saying much with regards to DE armor). What you could do to make this thing unique is to make it larger and tougher, as a focal point unit. If it could transport 20 models, maybe including walkers and jump infantry, and if it had a lesser form of shadow field tech like Vect's (say AV12 or 13), it would be just that.
Although that would be awesome, I don't think that really wouldn't fit the army. Deldar aren't tough, they're fast and light. As it stands now, it fits the theme of the Dark Eldar army well and fills it's role precisely. Also, these things are pretty dangerous as is. Being able to move 6" and shoot the two DLs is really nice and they survive a remarkably long amount of time due to the Night Shield. If anything, the Shadow Ring might almost be TOO good and need to be bumped up to raider (50pts) cost.

But I would advise making it a Heavy Support choice, giving it a gun, and making it more expensive than a Ravager (150-200 pts) if you do this.
You basically just described the Dark Star =p. It's basically that minus the ability to carry troops.
 

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Just to give this a real quick rundown, the ideas are pretty good, but you may want to re-edit and re-write this for simple grammar and understanding's sake. Some of the typos just cripple any comprehension of some very important details.

I do like you're opening up the troop options a little bit by putting wyches and warp beasts as troop choices, but you might want to experiment with adding options for something like an all-bike or all-hellion army. Say, for instance, that if you put an Archon on a reaver, you may take reavers as either troops or fast attack, instead of just allowing one unit as a troop choice.

I also find grotesques way over-priced in this codex. They're barely worth it at 15 points a pop for a two-wound model with no armor save, low init, and no ranged attack. In combat, they'll almost never cause more wounds than their opponents, so their Slow but Terrible rule is almost moot. I'd say either reduce them to 10 or 12 a model (if even that much), or leave them at 25 and tack on the real Feel No Pain rule to make them an actual threat in the only place they can cause damage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just to give this a real quick rundown, the ideas are pretty good, but you may want to re-edit and re-write this for simple grammar and understanding's sake. Some of the typos just cripple any comprehension of some very important details.

I do like you're opening up the troop options a little bit by putting wyches and warp beasts as troop choices, but you might want to experiment with adding options for something like an all-bike or all-hellion army. Say, for instance, that if you put an Archon on a reaver, you may take reavers as either troops or fast attack, instead of just allowing one unit as a troop choice.

I also find grotesques way over-priced in this codex. They're barely worth it at 15 points a pop for a two-wound model with no armor save, low init, and no ranged attack. In combat, they'll almost never cause more wounds than their opponents, so their Slow but Terrible rule is almost moot. I'd say either reduce them to 10 or 12 a model (if even that much), or leave them at 25 and tack on the real Feel No Pain rule to make them an actual threat in the only place they can cause damage.
A lot of the grammar/wording problems are at least partially the result of near constant revision of what the basic ability is, let alone what the wording is.

Right now, I am very hesitant to let the army take a full jetbike army since the basic landscape of the game has changed so drastically in 5th. As a troop choice, they make extremely good objective captures with their high (for Deldar) toughness and armor saves. A turbo-boost combined with going to ground (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) gives it a 2+ Cover save in addition. A last turn turbo-boost to land on an objective is scary. If I was to change something, I'd probably change it so that you can take one bike squad as a troops choice per bike lord (and similarly with Wych lord and hellions).

Yeah, grotesques need a lot of work (PS. The 25pt thing is just a massive typo on my part). I keep flip-flopping between giving them a combination of a (5+ or 6+) armor save, FNP, and/or Frightful Resistance. I don't want to give them all three (that would either make them overpowered or way too expensive) but I can't decide which two of the three to give them. Arguments can be made for any combination:
- FNP + Frightful Resistance: Is the most fluffy solution and there is very little overlap between the two abilities and very few attacks that AREN'T covered by at least one of the two. The most powerful of the combinations.
- Armor save + Frightful Presence: Similar to the previous but a bit weaker. Maybe not quite as fluffy but definitely cheaper.
- FNP + Armor save: Weakest (and probably cheapest) combination but fits the fluff somewhat and doesn't require players to remember any unusual rules (which is a good thing in some ways). However, it does make them effectively bad nurgle.
 

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Turbo boost is a 3+ cover save, and T3(4) does not a good objective holder make (especially with the relatively weak 4+ bike armor). But I understand your reluctance for jetbike armies, seeing how they can be exploited in 5th edition.

Your problem with the Grotesques illustrates why they really shouldn't get the FNP universal special rule. Their own version is the whole purpose of the unit, and combining that with the USR is unbalancing. The result may be balanced somewhat by a high point cost, but the unit is far too unkillable from an overall game perspective, not to mention that the fluff doesn't really allow for such toughness.

The real problem is that, the tougher you make the unit (regardless of balancing issues), they can be ignored because they are neither a threat in CC or at range. Also they cannot grab objectives, only contest. This means the opponent always has the easy choice of going after the rest of your army, and that actually puts the useful parts of your army in more danger since it they fewer points to work with.

My conclusion was that they needed to be more useful as a way to take bullets for the weaker Warriors, Wyches, etc., and that required the ability to join with other units much in the same way as henchmen or servitors on an IC can. So far, it's worked very well in my test games (I've played at least 5 games with them in this role). If you put a lot of points into it, you end up with a smaller number of squads on the board, but each one can soak up a lot of punishment at range. If you use them sparingly to boost the survivability of a strategically important unit, they seem to be more worth the points.

It's a fun tactic either way, but hasn't broken the game even when I've tried to do so as a test. This is mostly because our units with the most potential like to get into CC, and the Grotesques slow them down (unit becomes too large for a transport and doesn't have Fleet anymore). Alternatively, this could be a good strategy for protecting Scourges. But that's a lot of points (even with my Scourges) for a few lances of effect, and the unit is still only on the up side of mediocre if assaulted. It helps keep them from getting flamed by deep strikers and outflankers though.

Anyway, that's my experience so far and my 2¢ on Grotesques. Hope it helps!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Turbo boost is a 3+ cover save, and T3(4) does not a good objective holder make (especially with the relatively weak 4+ bike armor). But I understand your reluctance for jetbike armies, seeing how they can be exploited in 5th edition.
My 2+ save comment was because going to ground gives +1 to your cover save so that 3+ cover save becomes a 2+ (I'm pretty sure). In any case, to the rest of the post:

That's a possibility but I've been of the opinion that Grotesques are kind of distasteful to other Deldar. My vision of Dark Eldar has been that they love their excesses but they have a degree of practicality due to necessity (ie. Avoiding Slaanesh). Grotesques have gone well beyond that to the point that they are not only torturing others (a traditional Deldar past-time) but also themselves. So fluff wise I wouldn't think Deldar would want to have Grotesques join their units because they remind them of what got them in to their position (fearing Slaanesh, their original homes destroyed, etc).

Over all, I'm beginning to think that Grotesques should be just scapped entirely and then take the idea of a "Dark Eldar who tortures himself and then experimented on by Haemonculi" should be taken in another direction. Perhaps emphasizing the Haemonculi connection rather then the "toughness due to torture" part. Perhaps something where you can give them a wide variety of stat/ability upgrades (similar to nids; fluff is that it is modifications done by Haemonculi) or perhaps mini-MCs.
 

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Charybdis is correct. A model that uses Turbo Boost may not do anything else for the turn, and go to ground is also specifically covered. So you can't get the 2+ save, but they added that you also can't be pinned, which is nice.

DE don't outcast people for murder, torture, and many other unspeakable acts. I think it would take a lot more than self-mutilation to actually be outcasts in Commorragh's society. Also, they are lorded over by their Haemonculi, who seem well respected. Having a well respected & feared character join your squad with Grotesques in tow? I think the character's wishes would take precedence (unless someone tries to assassinate him :).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
New Version: http://rapidshare.com/files/317157589/DECodexReduxV04.pdf.html
(Note: Temporary rapidshare link until megaupload feels like working again)

Changes in latest version:
General
- "Wych Weapons" has been renamed "Wych Tactics" and changed from a wargear to a special rule across all units.

Special Characters:
- Special Characters from official codex added. Rules for them mostly the same but with updated points costs and abilities. Also a few new special characters added. All the "Only useable in armies of X points or more" clauses removed.
- Asdrubael Vect: Rules MASSIVELY simplified but should work (mostly) the same as before.
- Kruellagh the Vile: Special grenades rule replaced with Xenospasm.
- Lelith Hesperax: Rules modified somewhat significantly. Given the Lilitu advanced combat drugs and an ability that interacts with them.
- Drazhar: Basically identical to previous version.
- Urien Rakarth: Updated to bring in lined with Haemonculus Master HQ unit.
- Decapitator: Kept basically the same.
- Mendroth, the Venom Lord: New Special Character upgrade for hellion units.
- Skybane: New Special Character upgrade for Scourges
- The Thing Grotesque: New special character upgrade for Talos
- Zeikuin, The Lord of Terror: New special character HQ choice that is an upgrade of the Nightmare Weavers.

HQs
- Dark Eldar Lord: Jetbike mounted DE lord now allows for multiple Reaver Jetbike units as troops choices.
- Dark Eldar retinue renamed "Incubi Retinue"
- Wych Lord: Skyboad mounted Wych Lord now allows for multiple Hellion units as troops choices.
- Wych Lord Retinue renamed "Lilitu Retinue", Save dropped from 5+ to 6+.

Elite
- Grotesques now have an armor save and rending and cost slightly less.
- New nightmare weaver psyker power: Afraid of the Dark. It causes a unit in an enemy transport to make a morale test or disembark.
- Warp Snipers have had their Venom Rifles replaced with Splinter Rifles and Soul Seek ammunition. They're also more expensive now but Phase Mines are cheaper. They can also take more special/heavy weapons. They also have the option of taking a transport so long as they don't take phase mines.

Troops
- You can now upgrade some Warp Beasts into "Alphas" which have rending and an additional attack. Beastmaster can now take additional wargear options.
- Wyches: Succubus can't take punishers but can take hellglaives.

Fast Attack
- Peluda got a new upgrade option: Acid Sting. It lets it ram enemy vehicles and roll 2d6 rather then 1d6 for armor penetration but can't fire in the following shooting phase (even if it moved less then 12").
- Reaver Jetbikes now come with Plasma Grenades and Wych Tactics. Maximum unit size increased to 15.
- Hellions: Given Plasma Grenades, maximum unit size increased to 15, and cost reduced from 18 to 16.
- Webrunner Squadrons: Jumpdrive reworked. Now you just choose a location within 24" but scatter 2d6-BS" (or 2d6" if out of LoS). Now have the option of taking Twin-Linked flamers.

Heavy Support
- Dark Star Constellation renamed Dark Star Nebulae. No longer a squadron, instead the pulse lance is a weapon whose rate of fire can be split between multiple enemies and you can reduce the number of Pulse Lance shots to fire the Lance Array. Given an ability to semi-negate damage on a 3+ but at the cost of lowering the Phase Lance's rate of fire.
- Ravager can now take Splinter Cannons loaded with Soul Seeking ammo.
- Talos now hits for 5 attacks every time rather then 1d6. Tail upgrades renamed.

Transports
- Shadow Ring now costs 50pts, up from 45.

Wargear
- Various minor wording modifications/corrections.
- Crucible of Malediction added, affects all psykers on the board (including your own!) but they only take a wound, not die instantly.
- A model cannot have a Webway Portal AND a Webway Beacon.

To Do List:
- More playtesting, especially of Lilitu and special characters.
- Formatting
- Fluff-ing
- Making it look respectable.
 

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is there anyway you could post this outside of mega upload? get the whole thing into a page on this site? or a pdf?
 
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