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Each week, a new topic will be posted up about a different unit in the army book. This gives you your chance to discuss the unit to its fullest. So, please leave your comment!

This week's topic is - Cold One Knights

Do you use them? What are the best options for the unit? Do you take magic banners? How does stupidity effect their capabilities?

Discuss

Kuffy
 

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I take them as a unit of 5 with no upgrades. Cheap, effective, and scary. With LD 9 they don't go dumb all that often, and at their cheap points total how I run them, don't hurt much if I lose them. (sometimes even used them as bait)

Any command option you add to them has limited benefit. They can't reliably win going head on into a block unit, (should always go after flanks and support units) so SCR boosting items like banners and music shouldn't help any. The champion is an expensive extra attack, and gives your opponent the chance to use his challenge monkey. The only time I would use a command upgrade is to unlock a champion magic item or magic banner. Since there really isn't a great reason to do this, my guys go commandless.
 

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I was under the impression that they took away a lot of the COK's upgrade ability. I recall in previous editions you could choose between having Lances, spears, or Repeating cross bows and now you are set with their weapon selections.

In my experience, vs the Skaven, Cold One Knights were only seen in Tourny/Take-On-All-comer type army lists, where the DE players did not know what they were going up against. If they knew they were going up against the Skaven, they usually dropped the COK in favor of Dark Riders, which IMHO are even more feared by Skaven players then the COK are.
 

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For me I usually take a unit of 5 with a champ and the standard of slaughter (+d3 to combat res when they charge), i also run a dreadlord on a cold one with the unit with crimson death, regen armor and the pendant. 10 str 6 attacks on a charge (not counting the cold ones which surprise me with a kill every now and then) plus the banner boosting my CR makes it a pretty deadly unit and they have definatly come through for me in big ways. That being said, if you don't get the charge, you're probably toast.

If you don't take the dreadlord, then maybe a command free unit isn't a bad decision, but for me I almost always have a dreadlord/master in there. I really like the flexablity to run him out of the unit at any time that can really cause a shake up. Is that all that smart? no, but for some reason i just love to have him running around causing havoc unexpectantly. Oh you thought your mage was out of my LOS?
 

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I am quite a fan of the CoKs. I always take them in units of five, with a Dread Knight, as that extra attack (though expensive) can make a huge difference. If I had to give them a banner, I would put the BSB in there and give them the Hydra banner, making them nearly unstoppable on a charge. Against large blocks of infantry, however, they aren't as effective. You have to get the flank or rear charge for a hope of victory.
I usually use a unit or two of CoKs on my flanks, to flank their main forces, provide countercharges and to chase down their skirmishers. THey are VERY effective against skirmishers, because they get no rank bonuses. I must say, with one of my main adversaries a Skaven player, they are pretty good. But, I will take JoeSolarte's advice and give Dark Riders a go. I used them in my last game, and had his Rat Ogres chasing them around the field the whole game, but that was the first time I've ever used them. Thanks for the tip!
But, getting back on topic, I am an avid user of the CoKs but you most definitely have to pick your targets carefully as if they get caught up in combat they can be cut to shreds.
 

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I am quite a fan of the CoKs. I always take them in units of five, with a Dread Knight, as that extra attack (though expensive) can make a huge difference. If I had to give them a banner, I would put the BSB in there and give them the Hydra banner, making them nearly unstoppable on a charge. Against large blocks of infantry, however, they aren't as effective. You have to get the flank or rear charge for a hope of victory.
I usually use a unit or two of CoKs on my flanks, to flank their main forces, provide countercharges and to chase down their skirmishers. THey are VERY effective against skirmishers, because they get no rank bonuses. I must say, with one of my main adversaries a Skaven player, they are pretty good. But, I will take JoeSolarte's advice and give Dark Riders a go. I used them in my last game, and had his Rat Ogres chasing them around the field the whole game, but that was the first time I've ever used them. Thanks for the tip!
But, getting back on topic, I am an avid user of the CoKs but you most definitely have to pick your targets carefully as if they get caught up in combat they can be cut to shreds.
JoeSolarte's advice, as usual, is based on experiences with the 5th and 6th ed DE and has no bearing on anything based in current 7th ed reality...as usual. It is also based off the assumption that everyone who plays this game is a worthless general who must custom tailor lists to beat specific opponents. It's the mark of a pathetic player who can't bring an all comers list to the table and make a good show. DE have massive flexibility and power in terms of flexibility. Unlike most other armies we can pick which phase/phases we wish to dominate. We don't need to tailor lists to win.

It is a false dichotomy to say take either CoK's or Dark Riders.

#1. They don't compete for the same slots. One is core and one is special, you can (and should) have both in a balanced army.

#2. They don't fill the same roles. CoK are shock Calvary par excellence. Dark Riders are the best fast cav harassment unit in the game. Saying you must have one or the other is shooting yourself in the foot and calling it a good idea.

#3. Both are cheap and effective. 5 Dark Riders with RxB's and music is only 117pts. 5 naked CoK's is only 135pts. Even at the 1K point level any army can find room for both if they wish.


Vs. 7th ed Skaven Dark Riders are needed to march block dangerous blocks, hunt Jezzails and war machines, or bait monks and rat ogres into bad charges. CoK on the other hand, function as vital flank hitters that bring some fear causing to the fight. When fighting Skaven you need to do three things. The first is to throw out a lot of attacks, the second is to negate their static combat rest, the third is to focus the point of attack. To do this you pick your fights and double/triple team a specific point in the Skaven line, use multi-charges from Corsairs/Witches/Black Guard/Warriors teamed up with CoK's. Break the unit fast and blow through the hole. Get in a block armies rear and they will be faced with all sorts of bad decisions. This is how DE beat Skaven, with concentrated and superior close combat coupled with high mobility (actually, that's how all Elf armies win).
 

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Am I the only guy who uses more than 5 COKs in a unit? I generally run 10 with a full command plus a character and get great results. Having good resiliency to enemy shooting/magic and high unit strength (since COKs cause fear) are just as critical as the lance charge in my opinion.

One shining COK performance had me running them with the Hydra Banner BSB. They charged a large block of Empire troops containing their general (and were countercharged by some spearmen, if I remember right). No challenges were issued. The general made them stubborn at Ld 10 but, after I managed 15 kills on the charge, I edged him out on unit strength and auto-broke him as he wasn't immune to psychology...only stubborn-10.

The Hydra Banner is expensive as anything but it sure does deliver. The War Banner or Banner of Cold Blood is more typical for my lists, however.
 

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Am I the only guy who uses more than 5 COKs in a unit? I generally run 10 with a full command plus a character and get great results. Having good resiliency to enemy shooting/magic and high unit strength (since COKs cause fear) are just as critical as the lance charge in my opinion.

One shining COK performance had me running them with the Hydra Banner BSB. They charged a large block of Empire troops containing their general (and were countercharged by some spearmen, if I remember right). No challenges were issued. The general made them stubborn at Ld 10 but, after I managed 15 kills on the charge, I edged him out on unit strength and auto-broke him as he wasn't immune to psychology...only stubborn-10.

The Hydra Banner is expensive as anything but it sure does deliver. The War Banner or Banner of Cold Blood is more typical for my lists, however.
I've seen other players run calvary in blocks. There are basically three ways to run a unit like CoK.

#1. MSU: Keep them small, fast and cheap. The basic troop is exceptionally good and having multiples of said unit offers a great degree of flexibility + an advantage in deployment, redundancy and multi-charge.

#2. Standard/Upgraded: Basic upgrades to MSU or slightly larger units such as Standards and Champions + gear/items to increase effectivness. This offers a marginal to significant improvement in unit combat abilties dependant upon points spent. The downside is the unit costs more and requires a more risk averse selection of targets because if they lose the enemy will have destroyed a significant unit in your army and possibly captured a standard. Where an MSU is cheap and has unlimited targets because they are expendable, a standard unit has increased likelyhood of defeating targets, but a narrower selction of acceptable risks.

#3. Deathstar/Deathstar Light: Here enough models are taken to give the calvary a rank bonus and an almost automatic outnumber. Large amounts of points are spent on all possible upgrades to make the unit uber. (magic resistance, characters, banners, ect). The unit becomes an unstoppable killing machine able to crush anything in CC but another armies death star unit. The downside is the unit is a huge points sink and carries a giant red target on their back. You are also spending a lot of points for that rank bonus/out number for expensive CC centric models that are being used as little more that place holders. Often times a canny opponent can win just by crushing that one unit -or- by aoviding the death star and killing the remaining weaker army units.


The general order of how these units trump one another is circular. MSU<Standard<Death Star<MSU. It boils down to play style and preference which you take and which you make work for you. Myself? I run MSU and have run circles around Death Stars and won through mobility and multi-charging, but have dificulty taking more moderatly upgrade units. It goes round and round.
 

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Well, my advice I said flat out "in previous editions" and while I have the new DE rulebook, I don't have the Skaven rulebook yet so I don't have too much to REALLY offer save from my experience.

Which was very negative vs the Dark Elves, the one army I never even came close to winning against no matter what I did or what circumstances I was fighting under. It just always seemed that whenever I played them, they had the perfect counter to anything I did.

So, going on to the subject of COK's under today's rules, I see a lot of 5 unit COK in most successful army lists I see. To me, that seems risky because if the enemy gets the first round, in theory, your COK's would make a wonderful first target for a cannon or bolthrower. It seems at least 8 COK's per unit would be more optimum in order to counter attrition that you almost certainly would face from enemy shooting or magic, although since most successful DE players seem to have 2 units of COK's, I'm sure they know what they are doing more then I do.

if I were a DE player I would like the customization of COKs that they offered in previous editions- If I knew they were going to have high T/High Armor enemies, take the lance.....lower T/Armor enemies take the spear or the Repeating Crossbow, would definitely give me more customization options but if that is not still in 7th edition (i don't have my book around right now), then that is that.

A weakness I would see is that if I were going up against the DE's, the Lore of Metal is something I would consider greatly, as many of their spells have flaming damage, which would be great vs War Hydra's, and for countering RBT's. If I had a Lore of Metal wizard and saw the COK's in range, knowing that they have spells that can do S5 damage with no armor saves vs my COKs would be something to be weary of.
 

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if I were a DE player I would like the customization of COKs that they offered in previous editions- If I knew they were going to have high T/High Armor enemies, take the lance.....lower T/Armor enemies take the spear or the Repeating Crossbow, would definitely give me more customization options but if that is not still in 7th edition (i don't have my book around right now), then that is that.
That would be known as meta-gaming. It also is worth bupkis in any tourney setting where lists are fixed for the exact reason that players can't tailor their list to each specific foe. Metagaming is the cruch of weak players. If this were a nostalgia thread, yearning for the options of the past would be valid, as the topic is discussing CoK's as they are here and now in terms of playability in the current edition, such musings are worthless.
 

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true, which is why I immediately went into the weakness I see in today's edition of COK's- it does seem that Lore of Metal would be very ruinous to COK's, as their armor save would mean that both those spell's that do damage based on an armor save would do a lot more damage then they normally would. If I knew I was facing COK's it seems that a pair of relatively low level wizards with METAL could cause the panic test on round 1. From what I have read in the new DE rule book, countering/dispelling magic is not the DE's forte so if the other side has initiative/position of the turn, it seems METAL would be a very bad thing for COK's.

It seems that that would be the reason to have 2 units of COK's that so many successful generals are using with the DE's.
 

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A number of things to keep in mind:

Lore of Metal has basically 2 spells that could be dangerous to CoK's because of their armor.

#1. Burning Iron can only cause 1 wound per casting. Cast on a 5+. Good luck panicking a unit using that spell.

#2. Spirit of the Forge. This is the one that nukes 2d6 hits with a strength based on armor saves. The problem? It is the 6th bloody spell and is cast on a 12+. A level 2 can only roll 3 dice max, giving an average result of 9. So no, I don't fear the damage a couple lvl 2's can do to my CoK's with Lore of Metal.

The one army that could actually use Lore of Metal to good effect with just level 2's? Ironically it is DE. We have no limits on number of dice used per spell. Conversely though, our own Dark Lore is so potent it is something of a gimp to take a common lore in its place.

And while DE don't have uber magic defense, only a fool would think a couple lvl 2's are going to hurt a competitive DE army. We do have cheap null shards for MR 1 which we can give to champions in unit like CoK's. We have the Ring of Hotek which makes any doubles cast on or near the bearer count as a miscast...also cheap enough to be carried by a champion. DE magic rocks, thus a usual DE will have a couple level 2's + goodies. This is enough to stop anything but a dedicated magic heavy army. And if you're facing one of those, what they do to your CoK's with Lore of Metal is NOT a primary concern. And if you're running a magic heavy DE list with Supreme Sorc and a couple level 2's yourself...well it isn't you who is worried about magic, it is your opponent.

Discounting a unit because of what might happen if an opponent takes X lore is rather silly. Should I also skip taking a hydra because the enemy might take lore of beasts and cast Beast Cowers on it? Should I skip warriors because the magic missiles from the Lore of Death eat them up? Should I not bother with Black Guard because my enemy might Infernal Gateway the unit? Where does such thinking get you? No, I bring a balanced list with enough magic defense to mitigate such problems and then I don't worry about it. I don't build my army based on what the enemy might do, I build it based on what I want to do.

You fail to understand why DE players take CoK's and why they often take 2 units.

#1. We don't take CoK's in spite of their great armour save, we take them beause of it. The DE army has few good saves in general outside of characters, CoK's fill a valuable role In DE armies because of their save. I'll admit, this is the first time I've EVER seen a player who viewed a good armor save as a weakness...I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

#2. CoK's are dirt cheap for a dead sexy statline and combat abilities. Ld 9 base? Str 6 on the charge with hatred? Str 4 mounts with hatred? All for 135pts and no real need for upgrades? Yes please. This cheapness allows redundancy. DE take two CoK units because it makes their armies flexible and it doesn't cost much of anything. It forces the enemy to decide who and where to target. It also allows my heavy cav to act in support of multiple units.

#3. CoK's are bullet magnets. There are fools out there who don't understand the game who will dedicate magic and shooting phases to destroying DE heavy cav because that is the standard tactic for victory against most armies who rely on heavy cav. These people fail to understand that sometimes a DE player fields cheap CoK's just to take the heat off of other more frail units which are far more dangerous. Go ahead and kill my CoK's...see if I shed a tear for a unit that was worth only 135pts.

#4. You mention spears and rxbs. Why in gods name would I give up lances so that my heavy calvary can shoot str 3 shots and bounce off of high armour save targets which DE struggle with? DE have several excellent ranged and light combat units, I don't need to gimp my heavy cav to fill a redundant role.
 

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A unit of five with a full command usually, I've not had a chance to use them often (I misplaced the Cold Ones for a while, lol) but have always had a fair bit of fun running round and eating people in the flank. Head on they tend to get shown how squishy they are as I tend to fight Warriors of Chaos, Empire knight/artillery armies which go *crunch* against me more often than not, heh.

Stupidity tends to be kind to me so far at least :) I only use one unit though.
 

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to reply to #1- well, if I had two level 1 or 2 wizards and each cast it on a Dark elf unit of 5.........in all likelihood it casts and if it does, you are off 40% of your force right off the bat.

Your right about #2, but then, a spell like that is in all likelihood going to be cast by a powerful wizard (or if there are other factors/magic items). I'm not saying dump the COK's, I am just saying that it is something to look out for.

I thought I implied that based on the successfull army lists I have seen that when I see DE lists that win there are usually two units of 5 COK's. Which I thought was implied to make sure one unit made it to CC incase the other got shot out before it closed range.
 

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to reply to #1- well, if I had two level 1 or 2 wizards and each cast it on a Dark elf unit of 5.........in all likelihood it casts and if it does, you are off 40% of your force right off the bat.

Your right about #2, but then, a spell like that is in all likelihood going to be cast by a powerful wizard (or if there are other factors/magic items). I'm not saying dump the COK's, I am just saying that it is something to look out for.
And what is a DE armies dispel dice doing in this hypothetical lore of metal situation on turn one? What about dispell scrolls or magic resistance? Hmmmmm? (Though honestly if some tactically and mentally stunted opponent wants to waste 4 PD to kill 2 CoK's on turn 1 in the hopes of panicking my knights...I wouldn't really waste D Scrolls on that or try to stop him...I'd just expect an easy win with a game that will be over very fast. And you are still ignoring the fact that CoK's are Ld 9, when they take panic checks its not a huge fear that they will fail.

You are far overating the potency of magic, especially in the first turn (especially in your scenario where the enemy is taking 'a couple low level wizards' to hunt my CoK's. I play magic heavy armies, I know, it is unreliable for such tricks. Casting two spells, both wounding, neither being dispelled or blocked...yeah, you are ignoring far too much statistical probability and a lot of what happens in the typical magic phase. Two lvl 2's in a tourney gives you 6 PD...that is enough to start burning magic through around turn 4-5, or maybe not at all. It will take that long for a gimmpy magic list to burn through a typical tourney build armies standard magic defense. Even magic heavy armies like Lizards/DE/VC are not burning through a lot of magic defense until turn 2 (thats around 9+ PD, which means a mage lord, which means a magic heavy list, which means you've got bigger worries than what the enemy is going to do to your CoK's)

You are harping on a threat that is nearly non-existant in terms of the real game. This theoryhammer of yours is ignoring far to much of what happens in the real game. To say Lore of Metal is 'dangerous' to CoK's is to state the obvious and at the same time to state nothing at all.
 

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As always it depends on what you are up against

I'm not saying don't take COK. I'm saying what to be weary of

as I don't have the skaven book yet, but I do have the lizzies book and am a few weeks away from fielding my first LM army I can shift the focus from that view point

which would mow have me with a strong magic attack and would almost certaiinly take Lore of metal vs DE. And now there would be a slann throwing it at you

definite game changer
 

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Going back to the point of this thread, which is COK's, first off I need to say that the reason I am following this is because in the past, I have been largely wiped out every time I have ever played the DE's in past and as a result, there is a part of me that wants to redeem that by getting a win vs the DE's, which is why I am following this. I am probably about a month away from finishing my first 7th Edition Lizardman army and am following this thread primarily for tips and hints on how to deal with DE's when I face them.

So going onto that, based on the new scoring system for 7th edition, yes, I totally get why you would want no command units for your COK's- I can see how should a unit get to attritted by magic or shooting to the point that it loses it's CC effectiveness, that any unit could grab it's banner for VP's, so that does make a lot of sense.

I imagine that I read a lot of Army Lists for DE's that generally have the two units of COK's and usually also includes a war hydra or two as well.

Do you find that using COK's in conjunction with War Hydra's to be effective? Or do you prefer in this to have the COK's on the flanks ready to run an army down on the flank and have the war hydras in the middle of your battle line for other purposes?
 

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Hydras use the fact that they can move through terrain in my lists. They can easily set up traps and force units out of cover. The Cold knights run down any support unit foolish to stand in the open, or full block that shows a flank. I don't use my 2 hammers together, that is almost always over kill. I pair the hammers up with anvil units whenever possible though. (BG or full SCR warriors)

I was curious why you call the 7th ed scoring system new though. You DO know that 8th ed is not that far off, and 7th has been out for years.

The real reason why you don't run FC on CoKs has nothing to do with how many points your opponent can get for killing it. It is how many points it costs you to field the things. 135 points for 5 S6 charging hatred guys with S4 mounts is a bargain. 175 for the same thing with some +1 attack, +1 to rally, can get +1 in ties, and +1 as long as it doesn't lose the banner isn't that great a deal when you look at what the unit is meant to do. 40 points for abilities that the unit isn't really needing is inefficient. (not to mention the expensive banners or magic champion items you can give them...) Basicly it comes down to this idea: The more command you DON'T field, the more units that you can bring. This is a great idea since DE units don't need to be big to be effective (as opposed to human stated armies like empire or skaven) If DE ran more of a block hammer type list, then command for all would be a more viable option.

As for your lizard man vs DE goals: Lizards are uniquely qualified to give DE a hard time. Hard to move tough blocks of high strength and volume of attacks backed up by potent magic and dangerous skirmish units means that the Low T and S DE with bad saves will have to work overtime to beat you. Bring plenty of magic defense, and you should win many games against us.
 

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as I have said, a lot of my 7th edition knowledge is largely academic, a lot of battles in my mind, that sort of thing.

But I saw one on youtube, where the cold one knights were going head to head with a lizard stegadon. Even though the COK got the charge off and did some damage, because the rules state that a Steggie always has a unit strength of 10 no matter how many crew are killed; the Steggie with it's cold bloodedness was able to hold, and in the next round, the steggie pulled off a 1 point CR win and with the now 4 models/8 unit strength COK vs the 10 unit strength Steggie, it now was outnumbered by a fear generating enemy (terror, but the COK fear canceled out that part), it now autobreaks from the fear causing enemy per rules.

Academically, this seems feasible on my part from a LM stand point, is this something that would bother the 2 units of 5 COK's?

as far as my calling it "new" 7th edition is that I got out of warhammer barely a year into 6th edition, so now in the past year that I am getting back into WH, 7th edition is completley new and in some cases, a drastic change over from 6th edition which I never really got that into.
 
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