[kevin vanrooyen]

First off, i'd like to apologise for missing a week and bringing this topic in a day late. I've been very busy the past week or so as my teacherswere behin in their teacvhing and trying to catchup before the christmas break, this week i've got an essay due, a test later today, I had a project due as well as 3 assignmens earlier this week...

SO onto the Topic, Whirlwinds. The preferred artillary choice of many Spce Marine commanders, able to rain down shells to annihilate enemies out of cover as well as ignore any cover they may gain. Whirlwinds have one of the cheapest pie plates in 40k, and re able to fire a high S good AP shot or a good strength average AP shot that ignores cover. This makes it great against horde armies and with its cheap cost can be made up by only killing a few MEQ's.

Do you use whirlwinds? What enemies do they work best against? Do you find the minimum range to be much of a drawback? Do you find any other units do their job better? Do you have any other comments on whirlwinds?

The Emperor Protects

 

[f42quh42]

well I've never used them, but they do look pretty awesome. I'm interested in hearing about others' experiences with them.

 

[realitycheque]

I love my whirlwinds, especially against Eldar, IG, Tau, Nids and Daemons. S5 is enough to wound most things on a 3+ at least, and no armour save for most of the above! And the cover removing shells are a boon against Eldar pathfinders. I tend to take 2 if I want to use them to ensure maximum bombardment (although if I also want Vindicators I'll take 2 of them and only the one Whirlwind)

They work nicely with my fast moving armies, as I don't have to worry about them keeping up with Razorbacks, unlike Predators which either don't fire all their guns (and still only move half the distance of my transports) or just sit there like lemons while getting outflanked.

All in all they're probably my 2nd favour choice for a Heavy Support slot as I only buy Land Raiders if I've a Terminator Squad to transport (and thus don't need the slot for them)

 

[Mal]

I've a past as an artillery spotter so I have a soft spot for supporting fire in my armies. Even in my Drop Pod Marine List, I speculatively have a Thunderbird drop off 2 of these wonderful tanks to suppress enemy presence in objectives and pin enemy units in the open.

They are easily constructed. Look nice on the table and are often low on enemies lists of targets for their heavy weapons. I recommend them to all forms of Space Marine player, their weapon system allows them to even take out lightly armoured enemy mechanised units, while also being a large enough blast for dealing with hordes.

 

[Chirality]

Ah yes, the holy whirlwind. I used to use one of these in every list I ever designed in 3rd edition since I usually played a lot of IG and Eldar. In fact, I used to be great when I guessed ranges and never guessed less than a few inches off my target.

Unfortunately, since 4th edtion and later I slowly phased it out of my list in favor of Dakka predators and Vindicators. I pull it out for a game or two occasionally, but in a mobile mech list I prefer the Vindicator.

 

[Wraith]

I don't use them nearly as often as I ought to - they're a wonderfully versatile unit with an attractive price tag. Their thin skins leave them fairly vulnerable, especially to outflanking or deep striking units, and that tends to make the heavy armour and massive power of a Vindicator my preferred ordnance choice.

 

[And Justice For All]

Since they got rid of the minefield shot I've not really used them. I used to love taking 2 WW and just covering the table in mines. Would really slow skimmers as they used to get hit on back armour and large groups of infantry just couldn't move without taking hits.

Such a loss.

 

[MC Bone Giant]

I use mine pretty regularly with my Wolves. It just sits back behind cover and lays down fire. In Apoc games, I go so far as to use the formation with a Land Speeder as a spotter. It becomes even more powerful then, raining down fire where you need it.

 

[realitycheque]

I use mine pretty regularly with my Wolves. It just sits back behind cover and lays down fire. In Apoc games, I go so far as to use the formation with a Land Speeder as a spotter. It becomes even more powerful then, raining down fire where you need it.

Yeah that formation is great - especially the fact it removes the range limitation. Can't argue with hiding your tanks but still hitting targets 6" away

 

[Sabe]

My SW buddy and I got some strange looks when we showed up to a recent doubles tourny with a pair of WW's in our roster. But through 3 games and 6 armies they showed time and time again that regardless of what opponent their up against they easily hold down their cost in casualties, pinning and clearing units in cover. They are also considerably more survivable than their Predator and Vindicator counterparts do to being able to fire from out of LOS and on top of all that the models pretty cool.

We ended up taking first place.

 

[realitycheque]

I always forget that they are pinning - that's one rule my whole gaming group have a massive blindspot to. Next tournament I'll take 2 whirlwinds for each game until I've drilled it into my head!

 

[The_Outsider]

Whirlwinds are the second best HS choice marines have (and have been since 3rd ed) - the fact that they are only 85 points astounds me.

A whirlwind or two (three is overkill and a waste IMO) can cover huge holes in the SM list leaving your tactical squads to go las/plas to get that anti-MEQ/mech edge (not to mention tac weapons are dead cheap).

 

[Bathurst]

Whirlwinds are the second best HS choice marines have (and have been since 3rd ed)

.... Not quite.

They're better than Devastators.... but worse than Dreads, Dakkapreds, and Vindys.

There are situations where a Whirlwind can be a solid add to a friendly list, but as far as competition is concerned it's just an other rhino hull you left on the shelf at home.

 

[realitycheque]

.... Not quite.

They're better than Devastators.... but worse than Dreads, Dakkapreds, and Vindys.

There are situations where a Whirlwind can be a solid add to a friendly list, but as far as competition is concerned it's just an other rhino hull you left on the shelf at home.

Dreads are elite (unless you've a MotF), although I do agree Dreads are awesome with the right tools for a job.

I couldn't disagree more about the predator. Whatever combination you use it's either being left behind and out-maneuvered, or not firing all it's guns.

IMO it's more like Vindicator > Whirlwind > Devs > Predator. Not including LRs as I always take them as transports if I want to use them. Oh no an extra terminator squad, such a tragedy

 

[Bathurst]

I didn't include LR because LR lists are extremely different from balanced lists.

Anyway, you have horribly, horribly, underestimated the Predator. It is, for the points, one of the best bargains in the game.

I'll direct you here:
http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/space-marines/184079-predator-effectiveness.html

And then talk about the Whirlwind.


First off, I don't believe that the Whirlwind is a BAD choice. It's just not a GREAT choice. For the same points of a dakkapred you basically get a cover denying large blast template. That's awesome.

Unfortunately, you also forfeit survivability, mobility, and utility. You can't screen effectively with a Whirlwhind. You can't kill light armor with a whirlwind, and a whirlwind is about as useful as a spitball against MC's. Not to mention Heavy Bolter fire is capable of shutting down your shooting for a turn.

Here's the basic rub with whirlwinds: If you can't kill what a whirlwind is best at killing (light infantry in cover) with the rest of your list, you have extremely, massively, large list building problems that go way beyond your HS choices.

Think about it, for every time you play Green Tide and your whirlwinds are MVP's, you've probably played 5 Mech CSM lists where your whirlwinds did next to nothing and you could have had a Dakkapred in there popping Rhinos and shredding DP's.

 

[Red Archer]

Unfortunately, you also forfeit survivability, mobility, and utility. You can't screen effectively with a Whirlwhind. You can't kill light armor with a whirlwind, and a whirlwind is about as useful as a spitball against MC's. Not to mention Heavy Bolter fire is capable of shutting down your shooting for a turn.

Here's the basic rub with whirlwinds: If you can't kill what a whirlwind is best at killing (light infantry in cover) with the rest of your list, you have extremely, massively, large list building problems that go way beyond your HS choices.

Not true. The whirlwind can't be used as a screen, but it is very survivable because it can hide and shoot, it is mobile because -unlike the predator- it can move and shoot effectively (just not as barrage), and most importantly taking a whirlwind is not forfeiting utility. The whirlwind can reach hidden targets and dislodge units in cover - something that is unique. Unlike the predator which is not special at all. Don't forget the whirlwind's pinning (with barrage-modifier) either!

Think about it, for every time you play Green Tide and your whirlwinds are MVP's, you've probably played 5 Mech CSM lists where your whirlwinds did next to nothing and you could have had a Dakkapred in there popping Rhinos and shredding DP's.

Against Orks you're actually better off with thunderfire cannons. They're coming at you so you will have line of sight, the higher strength really helps against the high toughness, and AP6 is all you need.
Whirlwinds are better used against Eldar and Imperial Guard, maybe even Tyranids and Tau.

Whirlwinds are not the best heavy support choice in the Space Marine arsenal and heavy support choices are not the best units in the Space Marine arsenal. So overall, the whirlwind is an okay unit. Against all-comers I would rather have vindicators, but the whirlwind definitely has its place. Against Eldar it makes its points back very, very easily because of the expensive, fragile models that are unable to hide from your fire...

 

[Bathurst]

Not true. The whirlwind can't be used as a screen, but it is very survivable because it can hide and shoot, it is mobile because -unlike the predator- it can move and shoot effectively (just not as barrage), and most importantly taking a whirlwind is not forfeiting utility. The whirlwind can reach hidden targets and dislodge units in cover - something that is unique. Unlike the predator which is not special at all. Don't forget the whirlwind's pinning (with barrage-modifier) either!

Pinning is meh to begin with, and when you factor in that everyone and their brother is mechanized now, it's even less impressive. Dislodging units in cover isn't unique, that's why you have heavy flamers and the assault phase. Sure, it can hide and shoot, but thanks to fifth edition LOS rules all that means 90% of the time is it gets a 4+ cover save. Heavy bolters are still capable of shutting down your shooting.

Whirlwinds are better used against Eldar and Imperial Guard, maybe even Tyranids and Tau.

I find this amusing because, competitively, Dakkapreds are better than Whirlwinds against all of these armies.

Eldar: A competitive eldar list is a Mech Eldar list. There are no small elite infantry models to kill, they're all in Falcons and Serpents. Guess who kills skimmers? Plus with 8 high STR AP4 shots the Dakkapred is just about as good if not better than a Whirlwind at shooting at those small elite infantry (those small elite infantry all have 4+ armor saves, so congrats on negating their cover, but no.)

Predator 1, Whirlwind 0

Imperial Guard: A competitive IG list is a mechanized IG list. Some lists take a platoon for objective holding, this platoon is easily handled by the other things in your list. The Vendettas, Chimeras, Banewolves, and Hellhounds? Predators are superior.

Predator 2, Whirlwind 0

Tyranids: A competitive 'nids list is a Nidzilla list.

Guess what kills MC's?

Predator 3, Whirlwind 0

Tau: A competitive Tau list has lots of piranha screeners and suits with solid armor saves

Guess what kills both of them?

Predator 4, Whirlwind 0.



I'm constantly amused at how much abuse the humble predator gets. It an av13 vehicle with 8 high S shots. It's a hard working dog that will fight anything you put in front of it. It's the most points efficient HS choice SM have. It's the Dakkapred.

 

[The_Outsider]

I'm constantly amused at how much abuse the humble predator gets. It an av13 vehicle with 8 high S shots. It's a hard working dog that will fight anything you put in front of it. It's the most points efficient HS choice SM have. It's the Dakkapred.

The irony being a las turret pred (no sponsons) fits into a SM list far better than a dakkapred - the anti infantry hole (if you even go that far) can easily be plugged by a multitude of weapons across a huge number of platforms in the SM list - hell even shooty terminators can fill the whole if you so desire.

Yet tough anti-tank without wasting tactical squads or taking retardedly expensive devastator squads is hard to come by making a single las pred a bargain that fits in well with any mech/hybrid SM list.

The dakka pred is good, but it isn't that good.

 

[Red Archer]

You may notice I never said the predator was a bad HS choice (or one worse than a whirlwind). All I did was rectify the assumptions you made about the predator being more mobile and more survivable than a whirlwind, which can be argued at least.

Pinning is meh to begin with

I disagree. Pinning has won me many a game.

Dakkapred is just about as good if not better than a Whirlwind at shooting at those small elite infantry (those small elite infantry all have 4+ armor saves, so congrats on negating their cover, but no.)

You disregard the mechanics of barrage weapons. Units hiding behind their transport or barricades or other units? No cover from the whirlwind because cover is assessed from the center of the template, so you can safely crack Sv4+. And the whirlwind can do it from hiding. Going to the ground won't help. Moreover, the whirlwind kills expensive pathfinders by the dozen while the dakkapred will just fail to down them.

by the other things in your list.

See, Bathurst, this is the point: what do you know about my list? Your viewpoint seems to be narrowed down to your own army build and those you imagine for your opponents. You fail to realize that other armies may have other needs, and that your truth is not necessarily everyone's.
Take my army as an example: I have lots of very fast moving melta and plasma guns and lots of typhoon speeders whose krak missiles punk transports by the dozen. The predator therefore does not benefit my army. Instead I have trouble assaulting into terrain with my bikes, therefore dislodging units from cover is actually an issue. Besides, our gaming boards do provide enough line of sight blocking cover to completely hide a whirlwind. Of the last five whirlwinds I used only one died, and only this one didn't make its points back - the others made their points back twice at least, though.

The dakka pred is a light vehicle and medium infantry hunter. A stationary firing platform that assists armies that are in desperate need of a higher amount of firepower. Vindicators and whirlwinds fulfill other needs - each their own - and neither of them can be labeled the superior HS choice over the others. It's like comparing apples and bananas: they are completely different things, each one having advantages and disadvantages in any given scenario.
I agree that the dakka predator, for rhino/razorback-armies, may be the more versatile unit against all-comers. But for my army the predator does nothing I can't already do, while the whirlwind, in some cases, is a big help - which is why I field it from time to time, unlike the predator. And in the same way every other player has to make the decision for himself, considering what his boards usually look like, what his army needs, what his opponents field, and so on...
You are far too absolute in your assessments, Bathurst.

 

[Bathurst]

The truth being that any Predator with a las anything on it is instant casual-mode, and that if you're relying on your HS slots for anti heavy tank in an SM army you've got a helluva lot of problems.

See, Bathurst, this is the point: what do you know about my list? Your viewpoint seems to be narrowed down to your own army build and those you imagine for your opponents. You fail to realize that other armies may have other needs, and that your truth is not necessarily everyone's.
Take my army as an example: I have lots of very fast moving melta and plasma guns and lots of typhoon speeders whose krak missiles punk transports by the dozen. The predator therefore does not benefit my army. Instead I have trouble assaulting into terrain with my bikes, therefore dislodging units from cover is actually an issue.

I guess assuming that you're packing heavy flamers in a serious 5th edition list was an error in... assuming you were playing 5th edition? Please. Besides, no one brings pathfinders to a tournament, and if they did, I seriously doubt you'll have a problem beating them.

As for Typhoon speeders, I think they're wonderful. Unfortunately SM are in a position where their 2 best anti heavy tank options are in FA, and neither of them has a Typhoon launcher.

It's like comparing apples and bananas: they are completely different things, each one having advantages and disadvantages in any given scenario.

Your viewpoint seems to bely that I'm just assuming one type of cookie cutter list. Which, sadly, I am, because as I've mentioned multiple times, I'm referring to lists that are absolutely trimmed and efficient for serious tournament play. In other words, lists that don't have Whirlwinds in them. As I've mentioned before, multiple times, the Whirlwind is a fine choice for less serious play, but in top level competition it doesn't pull it's own weight.


-edit- I went through all threads you've started and couldn't find any sort of all comers tournament list. I therefore assume that you mostly play narrative games with friends, but enjoy healthy competition (that's the picture painted by your batreps, army lists, and exellent mathhammer work) and I have absolutely no problem with that. As I've said, many times, the perspective I'm trying to bring to this thread is that a serious all comers competitive list builder, which is not applicable in most games.