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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone,

I am building a list for an incoming tournament. The point limit is 2250 and one army composition rule is that I can't have more point in heroes than I have in core. I am sure you will find my army composition adequate, but I would like new suggestions as to how my list could be enhanced.

I am still building the background of my army but for the moment the army is named The Valhalla Knights and it is led by the Baron Baldr.

Baron Baldr the Decadent: Chaos Sorcerer, Lvl2, MoN, Barded Steed, DS, Power Fam.; 206 pts

Count Sigurd the Immortal: Exalted Hero, BSB, MoK, Jugger., Flail, Enchanted Shield; 219 pts

Niflheim the Damned: Chaos Sorcerer, Lvl 2, MoN, DS, Book of Secret; 190 pts

The Varangian Guards:
11 Chaos Warriors, MoS, Shield, Musician, War Banner; 229 pts
10 Chaos Warriors, MoS, Shield, Musician, Rapturous Stand.; 208 pts

Raiders:
5 Marauder Horsemen, Musician, Flails; 81 pts
5 Marauder Horsemen, Musician, Flails; 81 pts
5 Chaos Warhounds; XX pts

Valhalla Knights:
5 Chaos Knights, Musician, Banner of Rage; 265 pts
5 Chaos Knights, Musician, Stand. Bearer; 230 pts

Valhalla Hammers:
3 Dragon Ogres, Great W.; 231 pts

Skrymir, Chaos Giant, MoS; 265 pts

Total: 2235 pts

Wounds: 70
PD: 6 + 2
DD: 2 + 2 (2x DS)

My main strategy for this army would be to put both sorcerers inside both Warrior units. The knights (frenzied unit led by BSB ), DO and Giant will go on the flanks. Hounds and marauders are just there for war machine, scout hunting and making sure frenzied go where I want. The sorcerers take care of the heroes (and maybe put regeneration on the giant) from their relatively safe bunker while the fast guys charge.

I still have 15 pts left but I can't use it on a hero since I have 615pts of characters vs 629 pts in core. I was thinking either a champion or an additional warrior.
 

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I really like that army list has a bit of everything.

Just to check you do no that a frenzied character doesn't make the unit frenzyed but if the character is in charge range he must charge out of the unit. I find frenzyed characters a bit dodgy

For the marauders give em MoK drop the musician. Maybe give the knights some sort of mark?

Drop the wizard to a scroll caddie there just better that way. As cool as chaos magic is, magic isn't a reliable thing...
 

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I really like that army list has a bit of everything.
It seems nicely balanced, yup. Nice blend of Characters, solid infantry and I'm always a fan of Knights. Happy days.

Just to check you do no that a frenzied character doesn't make the unit frenzyed but if the character is in charge range he must charge out of the unit. I find frenzyed characters a bit dodgy[/quote

Your Knight unit has Frenzy, though, due to the Banner of Rage. This isn't an issue.

For the marauders give em MoK drop the musician. Maybe give the knights some sort of mark?
You could give the Horsemen Mark of Khorne, the better for taking out Skirmishers and Warmachines, but I don't know how useful it'd be, as you'd also lose some control over the units.

Drop the wizard to a scroll caddie there just better that way. As cool as chaos magic is, magic isn't a reliable thing...
I disagree. Stick with your set-up. You're not likely to break many armies with this set-up, but you're likely to get a couple of spells off a turn, with luck - your enemy's going to run out Dispel Scrolls pretty quickly, I imagine!
 

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Your Knight unit has Frenzy, though, due to the Banner of Rage. This isn't an issue.
Ah but he said they would get frenzy because of the bsb not the banner i though he was trying to go 4 frenzy for both units

You could give the Horsemen Mark of Khorne, the better for taking out Skirmishers and Warmachines, but I don't know how useful it'd be, as you'd also lose some control over the units.
U lose control but u can still decide what they see because u can use ur fast cav ability to turn all the way around so u can see nothing (a cunning plan!)
 

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Ah but he said they would get frenzy because of the bsb not the banner i though he was trying to go 4 frenzy for both units
I read that as "the unit with Frenzy, which will be led by the Battle Standard Bearer."



U lose control but u can still decide what they see because u can use ur fast cav ability to turn all the way around so u can see nothing (a cunning plan!)
Yes, but that dramatically increases the time it takes you to do anything. If you decide in one turn you don't want to charge, and turn yourself around, you then lose the following turn turning back around before charging on the third turn. I agree cruise missiles have their place. I just prefer to have control over as much of my army as possible.

As I read it, the Horsemen will be providing cover for the Knights - that makes Khorne on them a bit tricksy.

*Shrugs*. Personal preference!
 

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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Thanks for your comments guys!

I read that as "the unit with Frenzy, which will be led by the Battle Standard Bearer."
Exactly, I only have one frenzied unit. I would have like to not have to rely on frenzy and the juggy hero but after a lot games, I did not find any other setup as good as this one. These guys hit like a freight train leaving little behind. I have seen them killed twice and they were holding unit(s) worth twice their pts.

Yes, but that dramatically increases the time it takes you to do anything. If you decide in one turn you don't want to charge, and turn yourself around, you then lose the following turn turning back around before charging on the third turn. I agree cruise missiles have their place. I just prefer to have control over as much of my army as possible.

As I read it, the Horsemen will be providing cover for the Knights - that makes Khorne on them a bit tricksy.

*Shrugs*. Personal preference!
The cruise missile unit idea is nice. I guess if I could find a little more point, I could upgrade one unit. The points need to come from somewhere...

Although I said that horsemen should be providing cover for the knights, I also plan to maybe keep the DO in front of the BSB and the giant on the side (letting the hounds and horsemen free to hunt war machine and baiters).

Something like this setup:


DDD
___HKKKKK_G
___________G
Legend:
_ : empty space
D : Dragon Ogres
H : Juggy Hero
K : Knights
G : Giant


This way I am protecting my unit from any bait (the hero can charge without the unit but the unit can't) and if the DO are attacked the knights can attack (although if I am wheeling it will be easy to flank me, but that's where the giant comes in).

Undivided said:
Drop the wizard to a scroll caddie there just better that way. As cool as chaos magic is, magic isn't a reliable thing...
That could be an option. Here are my ideas about it:

I could switch to a scroll caddy on a chariot for 235 pts.
This leaves 175 pts for another hero which could lead the other unit of knights... or something else (maybe chaos warrior...).

Anyone has a good hero build to propose. Something which could work in synergy with the units I have. Apart from the juggy hero, my exalted drop like flies when confronted to other heroes (maybe that's just my luck?!). I have had some success with those build :

Exalted Hero, MoT, Barded Steed, Shield, Collar of Khorne, Sword of Might; 191pts
Exalted Hero, MoT, Disc of Tzeentch, Shield, Flail, Armour of Morrslieb; 184 pts

The first one could easily drop his Sword of Might and lead the second unit of knights. The second one can replace his item by the Golden Eye. He could be a mage/war machine hunter since my magic defense is pretty thin. I also like the Slaanesh Hero on the boob steed, but I can't seem to make a good build with him (apart from making her a sorcerer lord).


el_don said:
I disagree. Stick with your set-up. You're not likely to break many armies with this set-up, but you're likely to get a couple of spells off a turn, with luck - your enemy's going to run out Dispel Scrolls pretty quickly, I imagine!
I love the chaos warriors models but their use are somewhat limited when you field a very fast army (75% of my pts goes on units having at least MV6). Having a sorcerer inside those unit makes them viable since hanging back gives the sorcerer time to snipe enemy heroes. This is why I chose to have 2 lvl2 knowing that they would probably be worthless against some heavy magic armies. If I face a scroll caddy, my opponent faces quite a challenge since he needs to stop the sorcerers inside their bunker while getting charge by my cavalry.

I am still keeping the idea of a scroll caddy in case I find a good strategy for my Chaos Warriors without sorcerers.

--- EDIT ---

Still 15 pts to spend, other options:
- Armours on horsemen
- Necrotic Phylactery on the juggy hero
- Favours of the Gods on the juggy hero + armours for 1 unit of horsemen
- Halberds on warriors
 

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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I tried the list (with minor modifications) and I found several things lacking.

Baron Baldr the Decadent: Chaos Sorcerer, Lvl2, MoN, Barded Steed, DS, Power Fam.; 206 pts

Count Sigurd the Immortal: Exalted Hero, BSB, MoK, Jugger., Flail, Enchanted Shield; 219 pts

The Exalted Hero on the Jugger is really strong inside the knights. Frenzy is however a strategic liability but it is worth it. As hard as I try I can't get these guy to setup a flank charge. I am beginning to think I should deploy these guys first and then the fast cavalry/hounds. They seem to excel at charging head first into the thick of battle.


Niflheim the Damned: Chaos Sorcerer, Lvl 2, MoN, DS, Book of Secret; 190 pts

The 2 lvl2 are not strong enough even against just a scroll caddy. I need a third mage or some bound spell to reach 10 PD. You were right Undivided, I should go with a scroll caddy.

The Varangian Guards:
11 Chaos Warriors, MoS, Shield, Musician, War Banner; 229 pts
10 Chaos Warriors, MoS, Shield, Musician, Rapturous Stand.; 208 pts

My two Chaos Warriors units are pretty average. Granted, I faced superior units (like 20 White Lions or 20 Phoenix Guards with a Prince or BSB inside them) and I just didn't have a chance. I feel these guys don't cut it. One unit of 18 Warriors will stand a better chance in a Tournament I think.

Raiders:
5 Marauder Horsemen, Musician, Flails; 81 pts
5 Marauder Horsemen, Musician, Flails; 81 pts

The marauder horsemen were nice. I tried with and without light armour and the 5+ save did make a difference in survivability. Musician is great for bait and flee tactics and the lack of MoS did not make a difference. The only modification I would make is to remove the flails. I never use them, throwing axes are far more useful.


5 Chaos Warhounds; XX pts

Valhalla Knights:
5 Chaos Knights, Musician, Banner of Rage; 265 pts
5 Chaos Knights, Musician, Stand. Bearer; 230 pts

The second unit of knights needs a hero inside to make it deadly. Ideally with collar of Khorne if I go with the scroll caddy way.

Valhalla Hammers:
3 Dragon Ogres, Great W.; 231 pts

Skrymir, Chaos Giant, MoS; 265 pts

The Giant is a great arrow magnet and when, emphasis on when here, he reaches enemy line, it hurts. 265 pts is to much however, I feel the Hellcanon would be a better investment, especially if I go the scroll caddy way (the misfire charts looks tasty).
 

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You've got the right idea.

Just keep playing with it and you'll work out for yourself whats working. Personally I agree beefing the Warriors to one unit of 18. If you just go for a scroll caddy then you'll only need one unit to protect it anyway.

Out of interest, how have the DOs been going for you, I've always seen them as an intriguing option thats I've never used nor played against.
 

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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You've got the right idea.

Just keep playing with it and you'll work out for yourself whats working. Personally I agree beefing the Warriors to one unit of 18. If you just go for a scroll caddy then you'll only need one unit to protect it anyway.

Out of interest, how have the DOs been going for you, I've always seen them as an intriguing option thats I've never used nor played against.
The DO are good but nothing compared to knights. Honestly, if they don't get the charge they will flee from combat due to not generating enough CR. It happened a lot at first but I now use them as a counter charge or flanking unit and that seems to work better (although I still need to choose my target better).

I usually include them as a complement to my knight units. They add what the knights lack (S7 and 4W). They really prove their worth against high toughness or high armour save units (cavalry, stank, chariots). They also bring a sort of scariness factor to the list. My opponents tend to put a lot of attention on them and will do weird things: fleeing from a DO charge with an hydra and a treaman that moved out of the way almost all game so that the DO wouldn't attack him.
 

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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Following my own observations, I slightly changed my list. I played against a Dark Elves with this list and I was pretty satisfied with the results (a draw due to lack of time to finish the game).

Exalted Hero, MoK, Jugger., Glaive of Putrefaction, Enchanted Shield; 215 pts

Exalted Hero, BSB, MoT, Steed, Shield, Biting Blade, Bronze Armour of Zrakk, Collar of Khorne; 211 pts

Sorcerer, 2xDS; 135 pts

18 Chaos Warriors, MoS, Shield, Full Command, War Banner; 353 pts

5 Marauder Horsemen, Musician, LA, Flails; 86 pts
5 Marauder Horsemen, Musician, LA, Flails; 86 pts

5 Chaos Warhounds; XX pts
5 Chaos Warhounds; XX pts

5 Chaos Knights, Musician, Banner of Rage; 265 pts
5 Chaos Knights, Musician, Stand. Bearer; 230 pts

3 Dragon Ogres, Great W.; 231 pts

Chaos Giant, MoS; 265 pts

2 Chaos Spawns; XXX pts

Some new highlights from the game:

Once again, my exalted killed his opponent in duel before the Glaive of Putrefaction could kick in. This item really look better on paper than it truly his. I will switch for a Sword of Might next game and see how it works.

This time I deployed my frenzied knights right in the middle of my army. I also had two warhounds units to act as a meat shield in front. This time they were in the thick of the battle, never got baited, suffered heavy losses but still kept killing and killing...

One flank was guarded by 2 spawns and a horsemen unit. These guys really work together: the spawns tries to block all entry to my flank and the horsemen baits the opponent in the direction of my spawns.

The horsemen could use javelins or th. axes. There are times were you don't want to flee (ex.: getting charged by enemy fast cavalry like Dark Riders) and a stand and shoot reaction could make a difference. For 10 pts I could get javelin in both of my units.

The second knight unit (the one not frenzied) could use the MoS. I know it seems like a waste but I always break a sweat when they test for psychology at a critical moment (and Murphy's Law strikes me to often).
 

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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Instead of making another thread, I decided to put up the inverse list of what I was using here. I actually built upon all my weaknesses and created a heavy infantry, heavy magic list.

My basic tactic is to turtle my way through the battlefield unleashing my magic and hellcanon. Knights will be placed on one flank and the hellcanon on the other thus forming a sort of refusing flank.

Sorcerer Lord, Lvl4, MoS, Steed of Slaanesh, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Dispel Scroll, Infernal Puppet, Enchanted Shield, Collar of Khorne; 425 pts
Chaos Sorcerer, Lvl2, MoT, Barded Steed, Power Familiar, Book of Secrets; 206 pts
Exalted Hero, BSB, Shield, Barded Steed, Banner of the Gods; 281 pts

15 Chaos Warriors, MoS, Full Command; 280 pts
15 Chaos Warriors, MoS, Musician, War Banner; 293 pts
24 Chaos Marauders, MoS, Full Command; 174 pts
2x 5 Chaos Warhounds; XX pts
5 Marauders Horsemen, MoS, Musician, Light Armour, Flails; 96 pts
5 Chaos Knights, Musician, Standard Bearer; 230 pts
Hellcanon; XXX pts

Total 2250 pts

Do any of you guys have critics and comments. I made some unusual magic items choice on my lord and I am curious to see other opinions. I also went to a tournament using about the same list and faced Lizardmen, Deamons and Skaven (What do you think were the results?).
 

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Some suggestions..

Maybe mark of tzeentch would serve your wizard lord better. 5+ ward makes a difference...

The other thing that you might consider is freeing up some points to get another unit of marauder horse. That way maybe one of them will survive long enough to harass enemy war-machines.

The other thing you could try is swapping knights for two chariots. They seem to work great with infantry and are less of a fire-magnet.

I like your list a lot. Go go infantry! :beer:
 

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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Some suggestions..

Maybe mark of tzeentch would serve your wizard lord better. 5+ ward makes a difference...

The other thing that you might consider is freeing up some points to get another unit of marauder horse. That way maybe one of them will survive long enough to harass enemy war-machines.

The other thing you could try is swapping knights for two chariots. They seem to work great with infantry and are less of a fire-magnet.

I like your list a lot. Go go infantry! :beer:

Thanks for the comments! Your comment on my lord poor ward save is quite pertinent. I actually used the Armour of Morslieb in my last five games (instead of shield+collar). What I began to realize is that my lord is almost impossible to kill with a steed of Slaanesh. Given the fact that all my units are very close to each other, I never found myself without a unit to safely hide my lord inside it. What I am trying to achieve with the Collar is adding some MR to protect my BSB from spell such as Law of Gold, Buboes or any other spell that could kill or disable the banner.

As for the marauders horsemen, I guess it's just a matter of finding the points. I like the chariot idea, I guess I should eventually try it.
 

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In fact, I'm thinking about similar list at the moment (with infantry emphasis).

At first I was also looking at the banner of the gods, but now i`m leaning towards the following setup (which works very similar to botg, but costs less):

Bsb+war banner inside huge block of marauders with fc, armor, shields (slaanesh or maybe even tzeentch) and block of Warriors with rapturous standard.

Marauders are unlikely to flee cuz of +6 static combat resolution (In fact, they are more likely to actually win), while warriors are unlikely to flee cuz of the re-rolls.

Still not sure which approach is better. Posted in case you would like to test it.
 

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Schemer
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
In fact, I'm thinking about similar list at the moment (with infantry emphasis).

At first I was also looking at the banner of the gods, but now i`m leaning towards the following setup (which works very similar to botg, but costs less):

Bsb+war banner inside huge block of marauders with fc, armor, shields (slaanesh or maybe even tzeentch) and block of Warriors with rapturous standard.

Marauders are unlikely to flee cuz of +6 static combat resolution (In fact, they are more likely to actually win), while warriors are unlikely to flee cuz of the re-rolls.

Still not sure which approach is better. Posted in case you would like to test it.
Yep it should work (and that's a massive +7 SCR [3 ranks, 1 banner, 1 bsb, 1 War Banner, 1 number superiority]).

If I were to do it, I would still use 3 blocks. 25 Marauders block with BSB (but with normal magic items), 20 Chaos Warriors with War Banner and 10-12 Warriors with Rapturous. This could actually solve my dilemma about using hero without any magical protection. I'll post if I ever get to try it.
 

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Yep it should work (and that's a massive +7 SCR [3 ranks, 1 banner, 1 bsb, 1 War Banner, 1 number superiority]).

If I were to do it, I would still use 3 blocks. 25 Marauders block with BSB (but with normal magic items), 20 Chaos Warriors with War Banner and 10-12 Warriors with Rapturous. This could actually solve my dilemma about using hero without any magical protection. I'll post if I ever get to try it.
Can't unit champion accept/issue challenge to keep bsb safe in case of dragon or similar? I mean... Exalted with 1+ save is not that easy to kill, unless challenged, even without magic items.

But your idea seems good anyway as there are more units that way.

Other thing.... 20 chaos warriors seems a bit pricey. I try to field them in groups of 14 to keep costs reasonable.

P.S.: my bad on that CR. Forgot about outnumber :)
 
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