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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I read recently in some old-ish fluff that the gene seed of each and every founding of space marine and every chapter is held and grown from extracted seed on Earth and is doled out to the chapters on request to produce new marines when required - the rationale being I suppose that marine chapters cannot then go rogue and produce a legion of marines even if they wanted to as they have no additional supplies of gene seed to do it with.

I also read that the records and samples of gene seed from the traitor legions are also held on Earth under stasis lock. Just for curiosity really and because I am reaally bored would anyone like to speculate what would happen if new chapters were created using these seeds?
They would obviously create chapters at least equal to any of the other first foundings but would they be inherently oriented to chaos? After all the traitor legions were sent down that road because they followed their primarchs and their primarchs went there because of the choices they made and the experiences they had in life. So would different circumstances see a rejuvenated Thousand Sons or whatever turn out loyal do you think or was the taint of chaos whilst present in all the primarchs just too strong throughout the genetics of the traitors making revolution inevitable?
 

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There could be a symbiotic bond between geneseed and Traitor Primarch, but then what if the Traitor was actually dead like Horus and Night Haunter?

There's also the fact that fluff wise there have been 5th columnists among the traitor marines.....like the ones who warned the Emperor.

The Primarchs did choose their men and that may have played a part, personal loyalty and bonds of honour would have been given and exchanged.

So I'd say the new marines would be loyal to the Emperor and will do their utmost to remove the stain to their honour.
 

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It depends on the legions. If you used Death Gaurd gene seed they would probably be like any other chapter, same with the Black legion. But if you used a gene seed that already had problems, the marines would inherit them. For example, the thousand sons had a tendency to develop more psycic powers, so any marines created from thier seed would manifest more powers.
 

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I wonder if Thousand Sons geneseed was used in making the Grey Knights?

It would be interesting if Terra also holds first generation geneseed of all the Primarchs....:)

Pure geneseed especially from Sanguinus....could possibly allay the mutation of the Blood Angels and successor Chapters.

There is also the case that the genetic pool of whichever planet they use for recruitment might affect the geneseed.

The Flesh Tearers only recruit from their Deathworld. That may or may not be the reason for their mutation but it could have excerbated the problem. It may be too late, but if they gain access to their geneseed tithe?
 

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I like the idea of the thousand sons geneseed. Thinking about all those banks of geneseed, imagine how much damage could be done by one magos biologis who wanted to build his own personal army.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Grey Knights using Thousand Sons gene seed, now there is an interesting bit of fluff creation. Damn good rumour that would be to spread, kinky but good.

I suppose that as the original gene seed comes from the primarch and if the primarch wasn't bent towards chaos when the seed was struck then there will be no taint on it really, it wouldn't of course mutate or anything if it was under stasis lock.

As to Sanguinius' seed I suppose that would be okay if the original was under stasis too but if it wasn't it would be hit by Sanguinius' dying psychic scream the same as the rest of the legion and be damaged in the same way.
 

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I like the idea of the thousand sons geneseed. Thinking about all those banks of geneseed, imagine how much damage could be done by one magos biologis who wanted to build his own personal army.

Wouldn't the induction of new Space Marines be a closely kep secret? Otherwise what would stop any powerhungry despot from making his own army. There are probably failed experiments through the ages. The would be super warrior dying due to inability to use the new organs.

As for Sanguinus's stasis locked geneseed being unaffected by his dying psychic scream?

I would think that his death would have affected them nonetheless. Didn't the mutation take affect after generations? Perhaps its due to the geneseeds stocks becoming weaker..... genetically that is.
 

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If they have the orignial gene seed why dont they just make marines from that. I have read a lot of fluff saying that the current space marines are diluted versions of the pre-heresy space marines and they have lost a lot of abilities because the geneseeds that had those abilities were lost. Why not just start a fresh from the old stock

Hell why not start new Space Marines geneseeds and Primarchs, or have they lost that technology?
 

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From the fluff I remember is that the mutation is also caused by the dilution of the geneseed. During the early crusades the creation of Space Marines was accelerated, which eventually caused mutation in each chapter affected.

Case in point the Crimson Fists do not suffer from the same sado-masochistic tendencies of the Imperial Fists.

the Night Lords don't have the detrimental affects from Chaos like the other Traitor Legions.

This could mean that there are Chapters with stable geneseed. They could have been grown from the first generation. I'd say that the Grey Knights certainly would have been...lol.

Obi
 

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the reason for no new primarch is because during the seige of terra the underground labs used to create them were destroyed, and to this day the rubble still stands and has not been cleared, in honour of their sacrifices.

but if there was a way to recreate the primarchs of old, they would not be succeptable (spelling) to chaos, providing the chaos powers didnt spirit them away once again. chaos sending them through the warp is what caused them to become traitors, because tere the power had placed its own "gene seedof corruption" if you will.

and its only natural that the chaos marines followed their primarch, he is more of a leader to them than the emperor, thy were always in eachotehrs company, the primarchs were father (litterally) and the emperor was more like a great grandfather they would see only at christmas.

Does not, anyone remember some of the marines from the traitor leigons were
against the rebellion, and were swiftly killed?

hail chaos
 

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Like HeXus sort of said, every space marine (or chaos) is a Clone of their primarch. If that primarch has the power to realise the truth about the emperor, so to do his troops. So the Power Horus had is passed down to his clone-sons and that is why we all follow our primarchs loyally.
Blood for the Blood God!
 

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Yea, the Night Lords have some of the most "pure" gene-seed out there. It's because of Konrad Curze's fanatical batman-esque vigilantism. Two made-up words in one sentence!
Also, Sanguinius's gene-seed was extracted after he died. So maybe that's why it's so "corrupted."
Also, not all of the Traitor Legion double traitors were killed. Many of them, as well as fleet personnel, escaped on the Eisenstein and warned the Emperor. That is believed to have been the first action of the Horus Heresy- the thing that touched it off. That, or the event immediately preceding it- the Purging of Istvaan.
 

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Well, 1st generation geneseed is likely to be largely free from mutation, as it comes direct from the primarch. As each space marine dies, his geneseed is harvested, and used to create new marines. Consequently, as generations continue, the geneseed becomes less and less like the primarch, and more and more like the space marines he used to carry it. Thats why the Blood Angel's problem is getting progressivly worse - as each marine become less like sanguinus, their ability to fight the thirst is also lessened.

As for the use of traitor seed, if 1st generation seed was used, you'd probably end up with another heretical chapter, as the Space Marines would be very close to their primarch physolgically and physiologically, and thus would share the same weakness to the temptations of chaos.
 

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1) Grey Knights are already psychic before they become marines.
2) Ultramarines' geneseed is completely pure and therefore purest of all geneseeds.
3) Any geneseed from traitor legions or traitor chapters is most likely destroyed by the founders of the Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra.
4) With the exception of the Ultramarines, there is no pure geneseed left. Don't you think they would have used any original geneseed to "fix" the mutations inherent in many space marine chapters?
5) If they had any of the original geneseed (with the exception of the Ultramarines), why would they create new chapters out of existing Chapters' tithes and not use the good stuff?
 

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So the few chapters with pure geneseed would be the Ultramarines and their sucessor chapters and the Grey Knights (I'm gonna assume the most elite of the SMs would have pure gene seed lol)
 

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The Dark Angels have exceptionally pure gene seed as well. The Index Astartes mentioned something about that because the adeptus seems reluctant to use it even though it's pure, implying that they know about the Dark Angel's secret.
 

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3) Any geneseed from traitor legions or traitor chapters is most likely destroyed by the founders of the Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra.
The fluff has changed so that now it's been discovered that they were place in stasis.

Grey Knights are already psychic, but they may still use thousand son geneseed
to further enhance those abilities.
During their founding the Emperor may have realised the Magnus the Red did not want to rebel. He was forced into it by the Emperors actions, although the Warp may have eventually driven him to do this.

So perhaps thousand sons and Emperor genes along with the soul binding from the Emperor?

4) With the exception of the Ultramarines, there is no pure geneseed left. Don't you think they would have used any original geneseed to "fix" the mutations inherent in many space marine chapters?
We're forgetting the monolithic structure of the Imperium, plus the fact that they are hidebound.
I've wondered whether the Blood Angels and Flesh Tearers have even thought of getting the first generation progenoid glands or are they too precious to save their Chapter. <_<
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The important issues really are as I see it:

Geneseed works in that a seed gets planted in each marine and this guides the Marine's development and 'records' his experiences and achievements in a roundabout sort of way. The seed that is extracted from a dead marine is not the same seed that is implanted into him, it is the 'next generation' of seed and this seed is used in conjunction with other harvested seeds to grow new implantable seed for new recruits - I think - although without checking back to that issue of WD (was it 99?) that had the original list and schedule of Marine implantation I don't know -that you don't just pluck blobby chunks of flesh from dead marines and stuff them into new Marines. I think the old seed goes back to Earth via the Apothecary to be archived and new implantable seed is then grown from it. Consequently each Marine bears a genetic relationship to each and every other Marine (they are brothers in more than the monastic way!) and a relationship to the Primarch generationally. In addition this also suggests to me that there may infact not be such a thing as 'first generation' seed left in anything other than recorded form.

Consequently no chapter's seed is strictly speaking 'pure' as it has been subjected to millennia of 'mutation' some beneficial, some otherwise. A form of evolution if you would and we all know how far that can peel you away from the norm..

If there was a record of the seed of Sanguinius in stasis then technically I suppose it depends on how far you want to heap fantasy upon fantasy? Stasis is supposedly impermeable by space, time or anything else so the dieing psychic scream of Sanguinius shouldn't have affected it, but what are the fantasy statistics for dieing psychic screams and does it pierce stasis locks on a roll of less than 6 on a d12+1 or what?

The Traitor Seed in Storage would be from a time when the Traitor legion were still subject to the strictures of Earth an presumably before the Primarchs of those legions made the fateful choices that they did to make them renegades.


So the Question is not a 'seedal' one (see I can make up words too :p) it is a 'human' psychological one. Horus went renegade because he went mad with power and was swayed that way (the Lucifer syndrome - I am the Right Hand of God but why am I not God Himself) so if a Luna Wolves (or whatever chapter it was) was re-engineered and the leader was kept in a backwater observing a life of silent obedience would the new chapter not turn out differently or would there be some cryptic link under the surface all the time.

Nightlords went off the rails as they are Vigilantes gone wrong -NH was a victim of circumstances and did what he thought was best based on his circumstances and upbringing. Would he have been different if he had had the upbringing of a Roboute Guilleman or was he nutty even before he had to crawl through his planet's molten core to reach the nightmarish and terrifying surface? Same with the rest really, avoid depravity in the upbringing (Fulgrim), Indulge rather than condemn the extra curricular activities (Magnus).

Would that make a difference or is it just bad seed full stop?
 

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You can find all the steps and glands in the Index Astartes. I agree with Mr. Blood that the traitors became traitors of their own accord, not due to some defect in the geneseed. But I'm pretty sure the Index Astartes for the Ultramarines states that their geneseed is still completely pure.
 
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