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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm thinking about expanding my army to 2250; I think I made hundreds of lists, here are my two favorite so far :

FIRST LIST :


Prince (Lore ; beast)
Shadow Armour
Helm of fortune
Radiant gem of hoeth
Longbow

Dragon Mage of Caledor
Level 2
Silver Wand
Ring of fury

Mage
Level 2
Jewel of the Dusk
Dispel Scroll

15 Spearmen
Banner
Musician

10 Archers

5 Shadow Warriors (Assisted by Prince)

5 Dragon Princes

7 Sword Masters

7 Sword Masters

14 Phoenix Guards

15 White Lions

RBT
RBT
Great Eagle


SECCOND LIST:


Archmage
Level 4
Seerstaff
Bow of Seafearer

Noble
Bsb
Battle banner
Shield
Great weapon

Mage
Level2
Silver Wand
Ring of Fury


15 Spearmen
Banner
Musician

10 Archers

5 Shadow warriors

5 Dragon Princes

14 White Lions
Banner of Sorcery

14 White Lions
Banner

14 Phoenix Guards
Banner

Tiranoc Chariot

RBT

RBT

Great Eagle

I'm not super experienced I had a couple of games in the past with the ogres and recently few (succesful) games with my 1250 HE army list. Having a Lord could be very cool I find them very versatile in the HE army.
Any comments are welcome!
 

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A few things you need to fix:

1) Your prince in list #1 is not allowed to have two pieces of magic armor. Since the plan is to have him running with the Shadow Warriors, he'll need the Shadow Armor so he can scout. You've also neglected to give him a shield, and also a CC weapon in case your Bear's Anger gets dispelled (which will happen A LOT). I'd highly recommend a great weapon, but that's just my preference. The longbow is a nice extra if you have points to spare, but the CC weapon is a lot more important.

2) Also in list #1, you need to switch that 15th White Lion into a 15th Phoenix Guard. The Guard need static CR to win combats so they should be lining up 5x3 when possible, and the White Lions need to line up 7 wide to maximize frontage, since they are going to win with kills, not static CR.

3) I don't have my book right in front of me at the moment, but I don't recall Archmages being able to select any weapons beyond their hand weapon. If that's the case, you cannot give your Archmage in list #2 a magic weapon which isn't a hand weapon, and the Bow of the Seafarer doesn't qualifiy as a hand weapon. This is the same rule that precludes you from buying your Archmage magic armor; under 7th edition rules, you can be a wizard, wear armor, and still cast spells, but GW has fixed it by not giving most wizards an option to wear any.

4) Also in list #2, you neglected to give your BSB heavy armor/dragon armor.

5) Also in list #2, if you are going to buy Banner of Sorcery, you should give it to your Phoenix Guard, rather than a White Lion unit. The Phoenix Guard are far less likely to die, or end up getting broken in CC and run down, particularly since I would think that's where your BSB is going with that Battle Banner.

6) Also in list #2, single chariots do not work particularly well; they just attract cannon/bolt-thrower fire. Chariots should always be fielded in pairs, and when possible set on opposite sides of the board. Might be worth considering dropping said chariot and increasing the size of your elite infantry blocks.

Overall, the lists look decent, aside from the points I've made above. Make sure you do a careful point check after any adjustments you make. Good luck!
 

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Archmages and Mages as well as other wizard classes are allowed to use Magic Weapons. That's why i know a lot of HE players who give their Dragon Mage either the Sword of Might of Biting Blade for a little more punch. I think that it's just not often done as usually if your Mage is in CC you made a mistake somewhere.

I think the only magic user I've regularly given a magic weapon was my Spell singer who I would every now and again give a magic bow.

Apart from that I like your lists but would definitely make the changes that ga1661 has suggested.
 

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To Esgalisil: It's not that those mages can't have a magic weapon... it's that they can't buy a mundane bow as regular equipment. I think that's the particular prohibition that's in place here. He can take all the magic weapons he wants... as long as they are hand weapons. All of the common magic weapons qualify, as do some of the HE magic weapons. But for instance, he couldn't take a magic flail or magic great weapon, because he can't buy the mundane ones. By that logic, he shouldn't be allowed to take a magic bow either. WE casters are different in that IIRC they all have a mundane bow and hand weapon already. Thus it would be legal for them to have a magic bow. Someone please correct me if the WE casters don't come with a bow, my friend currently is borrowing all 13 of my army books (including HE & WE), so I can't check.

Just a completely off-topic remark on those Dragon Mages... I can't understand why you'd bother to give a magic hand weapon if you're going to be casting Flaming Sword anyway... waste of points since you lose the benefit of your magic hand weapon (whatever it is) when you cast the spell.
 

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Just a completely off-topic remark on those Dragon Mages... I can't understand why you'd bother to give a magic hand weapon if you're going to be casting Flaming Sword anyway... waste of points since you lose the benefit of your magic hand weapon (whatever it is) when you cast the spell.
Because just like Bear's anger - it can be dispeled readily and easily.

The archmage can take the bow (or any magical weapon for that matter) he just won't shoot all that well compared to a noble and personally, I think the reaver bow is better. The best thing about our bolt throwers is that you can take 6 shots with them. The single bolt is rarely necessary or as good as the multiple shots and at least with my rolling very unpredictable. Whereas the multiple shots are almost always going to hit. The reaver bow does great in the hands of a noble (hitting on 2's usually) and can take down things like giants/treekin/ogres without a problem usually. I missed 3 single bolt shots in 1 turn last game. The next turn I missed 2/3 more.
 

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I understand what you're saying... but if you're playing against an opponent who actually has enough dispel dice to waste them stopping your Flaming Sword, your Dragon should probably be doing other things besides getting into a combat where you might need the rider to actually do something. Now I'll admit I've only played about 25 games using a Dragon Mage, but it seems to me that causing terror tests and using the breath weapon are far more constructive uses of said Dragon, unless your opponent is silly enough to expose a flank charge for you, at which point you should be killing all the models that are eligible to hit the rider before they get to strike back, even without the Flaming Sword.

Are you sure about that thing with the bow? I've had multiple GW people tell me that he can't, although I have heard from one that he can. Really would be something good to know, although I don't see as it makes much of a difference, I wouldn't give a BS4 mage a bow anyway, he has better things to spend points on.
 

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maybe that's just the way i've interpreted it. I thought if he has a weapon in his equipment, he is free to pick any magic weapon he can afford. Same with armor, etc. In the BRB, only magic users can get arcane items, and that was the only stipulation I knew of. When you say GW people do you mean Gav Thorpe, or just guys that work on the hotline or in the stores?

Also, people who aren't used to taking heroes on flyers, are bound to get into combats they wish they hadn't. I've whiffed way too many times with high WS str 5 attacks (which is why my horses seem to kill more than my dragon princes) so having something to kill a guy or 2 and limit the attacks back is useful if you don't get your spell off. Let's face it, none of the spells by themselves will destroy a unit (except in rare circumstances) but a dragon in the flank and something in the front with the flaming sword almost guarantees a winning combat resolution, which will destroy a unit (I've destroyed units with fast cav in the flank when I roll well)
 

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By GW, I mean tournament staff. I'm obviously not privileged enough to speak with GT or AC or anyone else who matters (or I wouldn't be wasting time on a public chat board :) ). But anyways, the way I've been told, you can't buy a Star Lance for your Dragon Mage because you can't buy him a mundane lance. The rule, as I understand it, is that you can't buy a magic version of something you can't buy a mundane version of. That's the *new* reason why you can't buy magic armor for your wizards (in most cases); in 6th edition spell-casters couldn't cast and wear armor unless there was a *specific* exception, but that rule is gone now in 7th. Now the only rule barring them from wearing armor is that they can't buy it... and in order to maintain some of the balance of that 6th edition rule, they *don't allow most* casters buy it, Chaos being the most-obvious exception to that rule.

By that same logic, and the ruling regarding the Star Lance and Dragon Mages, it seems clear that if you can't buy a bow, you can't buy a magic bow either. So, since IIRC Archmages and Mages can't buy bows, they can't buy magic bows. Again, if anyone has heard anything expressly contradicting this from anyone who matters, please speak up!

With regard to the other comment... I see your point, I just wouldn't ever get engaged in combat to an opponent's front on purpose if they have static CR unless I already know Flaming Sword will get cast (opponent has no mages left and only has base dispel dice to work with), particularly for the reasons you describe. "Rubber lance syndrome," or in this case "rubber dragon claws," is really really annoying and happens a lot more than we'd like.
 

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By GW, I mean tournament staff. I'm obviously not privileged enough to speak with GT or AC or anyone else who matters (or I wouldn't be wasting time on a public chat board :) ). But anyways, the way I've been told, you can't buy a Star Lance for your Dragon Mage because you can't buy him a mundane lance. The rule, as I understand it, is that you can't buy a magic version of something you can't buy a mundane version of. That's the *new* reason why you can't buy magic armor for your wizards (in most cases); in 6th edition spell-casters couldn't cast and wear armor unless there was a *specific* exception, but that rule is gone now in 7th. Now the only rule barring them from wearing armor is that they can't buy it... and in order to maintain some of the balance of that 6th edition rule, they *don't allow most* casters buy it, Chaos being the most-obvious exception to that rule.

By that same logic, and the ruling regarding the Star Lance and Dragon Mages, it seems clear that if you can't buy a bow, you can't buy a magic bow either. So, since IIRC Archmages and Mages can't buy bows, they can't buy magic bows. Again, if anyone has heard anything expressly contradicting this from anyone who matters, please speak up!

With regard to the other comment... I see your point, I just wouldn't ever get engaged in combat to an opponent's front on purpose if they have static CR unless I already know Flaming Sword will get cast (opponent has no mages left and only has base dispel dice to work with), particularly for the reasons you describe. "Rubber lance syndrome," or in this case "rubber dragon claws," is really really annoying and happens a lot more than we'd like.

I could go along with that reasoning. Like you said, I wouldn't put a bow on a mage anyway. As always, it probably depends on your opponents. There are a couple of guys I play that even with the list above, I might not get but 1 spell off a turn. they've just got super magic armies. Other opponents, you could really work over with 3 casters. I know 10pts would get you another spearman, but I still subscribe to being overly cautious with a 450pt model. Especially if you're not used to using him. Obviously, going up against undead, in order for a Dragonmage to be useful, he's going to have to either have really good spells, or get into combat at sometime. I have a feeling that after March 8th, we're going to see a lot more undead armies on the field of battle.
 

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Nod to the caution... I heard rumors that originally the Dragon Mages had light armor and the option for a shield, but practically every list in play testing ended up having a Dragon Mage with Armor of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix, an Archmage with Book of Hoeth, and a Lv 2 Mage with a pair of Powerstones or Dispel Scrolls, accompanied by a whole pile of cavalry and 2-4 Great Eagles. When you don't have to worry about your Dragon Mage dying in CC (or to randomized shooting), you can be a lot more reckless and crazy with them, which generally leads to your opponent panic-ing to kill the stupid Dragon. And in the meantime, your Eagles successfully march block or kill war machines as needed, while your cavalry goes unmolested, and you end up not even needing a CC character besides your Dragon Mage. Anyways, this is probably way off-topic, but I thought it might prove a useful thought exercise. My point was that when they figured how good it was to be able to buy Armor of Caledor for your Dragon Mage, they immediately had to scrap that idea. They understood how important it is to be able to protect that huge points sink, and I wanted to acknowledge I understood your point, in light of said argument.

I agree with you though, I expect we will be seeing a LOT of Undead from here on out... VC looks absolutely sick, and I think TK are going to get a major improvement when they get redone. Right now VC looks good, but after the update, it's downright scary, and TK is pretty mediocre at the moment, but they are going to be at least as good as Lizardmen, maybe better, after they get their new book. I think we may actually see the end of the Empire/Chaos era; it seems like forever now that those two armies (in all their variants) have been the only ones worth playing in serious tournaments if you want a realistic chance to win, which is a rather sad commentary on the game IMHO. But I guess we'll have to wait and see on that...
 

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Not to mention Dark Elves in October/November if not sooner. If you think the HE got a melee boost, the DE cousins were always supposed to be the more aggressive of the 3. I can see the ability to take 2 manticores and some hydras in a 2000pt game. I don't like it, but i could see them doing it. Witch Elves are going to have to get a vicious ward save or regeneration or something. Regular warriors are going to be able to shoot their xbows and then have spears to back them up like the city defense list or something. If DE follow the trend of the HE, then all of a sudden the Black Guard ought to be really good and warriors, witch elves and corsairs will get a boost along with assasins and beast masters.
 

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I am afraid of that as well, as I have not yet lost to DE (Long live Asur!) I doubt they would get ASF though (which is rumored), that may spell trouble since thier initiative is not to far (sometimes better) then ours... I am afraid of all the revision lists actually, because when GW starts balancing they sometimes need to tweek it a little (remember way back with the Lizardmen?) I was just looking at the new Vampire Counts book actually and I would say they have gotten a general boost although they have lost some "originality" in the fact that they don't have special types of vampires now, it seems to follow the neutral path of the Van Carstien family now... (which isn't that bad IMHO but it doesn't have to many outright particular strengths either...)

Regards,

 

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I think it's only natural for everyone to worry when a new army comes out with all new rules and fancy tricks the same way that all the doom sayers cried ' broken' when we got ASF. It was the same when TK got their army book, 6th Edition Lizardmen and also Archeon's Army in SoC.
The truth is all it means is that we as players just have to come up with all new ways to smite said armies. My regular gaming mates now accept that when I take my HE army the will ALWAYS hit last. Therefore they don't need to worry about bringing GW etc and generally tool up on them so that when they eventually do get to hit me they are doing it hard.

Yes when VC comes out most of our armies will get roundly smashed for a while but not because they are worse armies or unbalancing but because the VC players will know what we can take but we will have to learn what they have and how to counter it.

I for one look forward to this because there is nothing quite like beating your best mates shinny new army for the 1st time :p
Saying that though I don't plan on losing even once to the Dark scum when they get their re-do later this year.....ASUR!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
After playing a couple of games with proxies I decided to used this army list :
What do you think?

LORD

Archmage (360)
Level 4
Guardian Pheonix
Silver Wand
Ring of Fury
Dispel Scroll

HEROES

Noble (218)
Lance
Heavy Armour
Barded Elven steed
Shield
BSB
Battle banner

Mage (175)
Level 2
Jewel of the Dusk
Dispel Scroll

CORE

15 Spearmen

10 Archers

SPECIAL

14 White Lions

15 Phoenix Guards (293)
Standard
Musician
Banner of Sorcery

14 Sword Masters (210)
Musician

5 Dragon Princes (190)
Banner
Warbanner

5 Dragon Princes (160)
Musician

5 Shadow Warriors

RARE
RBT
RBT
 

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This list does seem farily balanced, however I would make an alternative (never just stick to one list...) I do not believe that this list would do very well against a gunline (which a lot of peopla are doing now these days = (... With no Shadow warriors, or faster cav than your DP, a lot of enemy seige weaponry could filet your elite troops... I think a pair of Great Eagles is crucial to almost any list (including this one...)!

Regards,
 

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This list does seem farily balanced, however I would make an alternative (never just stick to one list...) I do not believe that this list would do very well against a gunline (which a lot of peopla are doing now these days = (... With no Shadow warriors, or faster cav than your DP, a lot of enemy seige weaponry could filet your elite troops... I think a pair of Great Eagles is crucial to almost any list (including this one...)!

Regards,
Ahh, come on VD, give it a rest with the eagles already;Y. I like eagles, but they do go down really easy. What they do provide though, is a target for 1 turn that is cheap, allowing the rest of your army to hopefully get in position to charge next turn. I actually prefer reavers to eagles, but always take 1 in my list. RBT's seem to take out warmachine crew better than eagles in my experience. Make sure he's not entrenched before you shoot at them though.

Your Dragon princes shouldn't make it into combat full strength, and it will be difficult to get your other units up to charging distance and the DP onthe flanks if the enemy positions themselves well. You'll have to rely on magic to reduce the shooting effeciency of the enemy (not a reliable prospect if they like most dwarves have 5-6 dispel dice, are stealing power dice and have a couple of scrolls)
 

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But... But! Sniff Sniff* Eagles!!!! 21 21 21 ^^ I feel I must make a rebuttle. You just brought up another good point about eagles, they are so cheap! You suggest reavers? I beleive that to be a poor choice for this list. They cost almost 2 times as much as Eagles, (and are almost as likely to die). Also Reavers don't get the movement that eagles do, and besides... Eagles can fly! That means you can just get over some of the things (including troops) that might be in your way, what if your reavers encounter difficult terrain? They will be slowed even further, and if you counter my arguement by suggesting the banner of Ellyrian for no negative movement you would be correct, however this puts them at over 200% the cost of an Eagle, and mind you it takes away from your special choices, with which you may get your other powerful units... Perhaps we should start another thread for this, I am trying to give this guy advice but now it seems I am babbling about the extreme pros to using great eagles ^^ I have many more points to make, however I must retire for now because I gotta go to Lab = (

Regards,

P.S For increased eagle survivability cast shield of saphery on em and get them out there with a ward save ^^
 
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