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Discussion Starter #1
I'm not a competitive player, so making a competitive list is harder for me. Some back story; a few days ago a buddy of mine texted my son asking for a friendly 2 on 2 game tonight. Just easy going, nothing big he said. So I took a CSM list because (let's face it) there really isn't a 1000 point competitive list you can make from the CSM book. Turns out every other player either took a semi or a full out competitive list. The guy who asked for the "friendly" game took a full on Raven Wing Assault Squadron being led by Sammael and the other took an Errant Knight with Space Wolves complete with a Stormfang Gunship. My son took a middle of the road Sisters list that included two Exorcists and some big blobs of Sisters.

I got smashed. My partner had a Knight and 5 Long Fangs on the table and his gunship never made it out of reserves (we ran out of time). His Longfangs died first turn leaving me all alone with one Knight. I'm not going to make the same mistake twice. So next week, we are moving the game to my house so there is no time limit and we are moving up to 1500 points per player. I'm trying to pull out the stops and taking a high powered Tzeentch list. Please critique it and help me out:

Daemons CAD 1500 Points

HQ - LoC ML2, Warlord, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser Reward (Staff of Change), The Impossible Robe
HQ - LoC Ml2, 2 Greater Rewards, Paradox

Troops - Pink Horrors x15, Iridescent Horror, Icon
Troops - Pink Horrors x15, Iridescent Horror, Icon
Troops - Pink Horrors x14, Iridescent Horror, Icon

Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Skull Cannon of Khorne

That's 1486 so far.

Defending the list: Firstly, I have a partner to plug holes. This list is a good psychic support list. I plan on using it in thirds; summoning, offense and buffing each in equal measure. I want to add more Pink Horrors, but that's all the PH models I own and the local shop is completely out of them. Because there is a summoning aspect, I put an Icon on the Pink Horrors which may do some of the summoning. I went for Baleful Torrent on the Soul Grinders and the Skull Cannon as I believe I will be facing a bunch of Jink. If I can limit the amount of rerollable Jink saves, I would be happy and denying the Jink save is critical.

Tweeks: I can't take more Pink Horrors, but I could take a secondary unit to take some fire pressure off my big units. I have 14 points and I don't have to take the Icons which could be 44 points. If I took the Skull Cannon off I would have 169 points to add Hounds or Flamers.
 

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Just at a quick glance...

Why not drop the horrors to 10 strong units, then you've got enough spare points to add a fourth unit...extra dice for psychic wibblyness.

What's your partners role going to be? I am assuming combat orientated as everything you have there is very squishy...

I'd be tempted to drop the cannon for flamers. I've seen the mess they can make of things and they annoy the hell out of opponents. Pluz then you are full tzeentch :p

I can't remember what his points value is, but fateweaver would be a fun thing to throw in there. Especially with the shinies in the wulfen book...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Just at a quick glance...

Why not drop the horrors to 10 strong units, then you've got enough spare points to add a fourth unit...extra dice for psychic wibblyness.
Let's do the math on this point: Units of Pink Horrors sized 11-14 generate 2 warp charges each. Since I have three units of over 11, I generate 6 warp charges from Pink Horrors. If I go with 4 units of 10 Pink Horrors, they only generate 1 warp charge each or 4 warp charges in total.

What's your partners role going to be? I am assuming combat orientated as everything you have there is very squishy...
Not sure what my partner is going to bring. I assume it will be Space Wolves and a Knight. My opponents will most likely be White Scar bike army and a Tau fire line including a Stormsurge. Small groups of Flamers deep struck in close to the Tau firing lines may do the trick providing I don't mishap coming in so close. I just hate giving anyone feel no pain for free. I frickin' hate the Warpflame rule. It is just completely stupid.

I can't remember what his points value is, but fateweaver would be a fun thing to throw in there. Especially with the shinies in the wulfen book...
Actually, Fateweaver isn't even mentioned in the Curse of the Wulfen book and cannot take any of the new artifacts whatsoever. The only buff Fateweaver gets is the fact he knows all of the new Change powers including Prismatic Gaze which is a D strength witchfire power.
 

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I would drop the Skull Cannon for a Herald (or two if you go cheap) and change the second LoC into a flying Prince. That way you can either buff the Horrors with cheap Heralds, or create a Deep Striking Herald (possibly on a Disk) to pop in and attack rear armour and annoy the crap out of an opponent. Would be good against a gunline, and if you get the D strength power then you can smack that Stormsurge.

Hell, one thing I did against a Stormsurge recently is drop a Disk Herald down close to it after Iit dropped anchors. Dealt a couple wounds then ran right in close so that the Stormsurge itself protected me. I either survived with an awesome cover save or the Tau couldn't draw line of sight, so he was forced to either shoot me with the Stormsurge (wasting a round of double-shooting) or risk me knocking off more wounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I would drop the Skull Cannon for a Herald (or two if you go cheap) and change the second LoC into a flying Prince.
I have such a horrible track record with Flying Princes that is is comical. A TzPrince scares me just based on this alone. I'll fudge the numbers and post a new list.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Here's the 2.0 version of that list:

HQ - LoC ML2, Warlord, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser Reward (Staff of Change), The Impossible Robe
HQ - TzHerald ML2, Disc
HQ - TzHerald ML1, Loci of Conjuration

Troops - Pink Horrors x15, Iridescent Horror, Blasted Standard
Troops - Pink Horrors x15, Iridescent Horror
Troops - Pink Horrors x14, Iridescent Horror

Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, Armour, ML2

1501 Points

The new plan is this: Stick the ML 1 TzHerald in the unit of PH with the Blasted Standard. He will add +1 to the units psychic powers strength and the standard just adds an added threat to nearby enemies. As Marius suggested, I can try and get some damaging spells on the Disc Herald and drop him in behind the tanks to pop them up. If he gets less than ideal powers I'll adjust his battlefield role accordingly. I'm worried about the Prince as a TzPrince is just so bloody expensive. I'll run him along with the LoC to buff one another. The list generates 13 warp charge points without the d6 roll as it is. I want one PH unit to summon more units. I'm looking to get Cursed Earth on the LoC to get him a 2+ rerollable invulnerable save.
 

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Here's the 2.0 version of that list:

HQ - LoC ML2, Warlord, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser Reward (Staff of Change), The Impossible Robe
HQ - TzHerald ML2, Disc
HQ - TzHerald ML1, Loci of Conjuration

Troops - Pink Horrors x15, Iridescent Horror, Blasted Standard
Troops - Pink Horrors x15, Iridescent Horror
Troops - Pink Horrors x14, Iridescent Horror

Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, Armour, ML2

1501 Points
HQ's;
- Add the 3rd Mastery Lv. to the LoC & dump everything into Malefic. You really, really want that Cursed Earth to ensure he can rock a re-rolled 2++ every single turn. Otherwise, one botched Ld test and he's toast.
- Disc Tzherald should have the Oracular Disc.
- Conjuration Tzherald should have Lv3 + Paradox for autocasting the (hopefully) Str.D spell.

Troops:
- All Horrors squads should be 11 strong. Everything else is pts bloat. 1 Icon should suffice, forget the Instruments as you have little in the way of Deep Strikers.

Heavy:
- Lose the Prince, the Khannon was a better choice - especially for you!;)


Other idea to super cheese your list and give those competitive dudes a real shock?!

Honestly, if you can manage it, run the new Daemonic Incursion detachment, or at the very least, run the Warpflame Host formation... It may look 'meh' on paper, but consider;
Tzherald w/Lv3, conjuration, paradox
3x 11 Horrors
4x Exalted Flamers
2x 3 Flamers

The Exalts function as essentially emplaced turrets, banging off D3/S10!! shots at whatever needs killing. The Horrors function as they always have - WC batteries and summon farms, while the Tzherald can now toss around +2S Tzeentch powers.
The Flamers now each effectively come with Heavy Flamers, and can go back to their old school role of suicide drops who hit up choice targets with multiple templates.

Add in a small CAD that takes say, 2x min Nurglings for added board control (Infiltrate), your LoC, and then fill out with Grinders.


Otherwise, just fall back onto our staple "cheese" and take a re-rolling 2++ Screamerstar.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
HQ's;
- Add the 3rd Mastery Lv. to the LoC & dump everything into Malefic. You really, really want that Cursed Earth to ensure he can rock a re-rolled 2++ every single turn. Otherwise, one botched Ld test and he's toast.
- Disc Tzherald should have the Oracular Disc.
- Conjuration Tzherald should have Lv3 + Paradox for autocasting the (hopefully) Str.D spell.

Troops:
- All Horrors squads should be 11 strong. Everything else is pts bloat. 1 Icon should suffice, forget the Instruments as you have little in the way of Deep Strikers.

Heavy:
- Lose the Prince, the Khannon was a better choice - especially for you!;)


Other idea to super cheese your list and give those competitive dudes a real shock?!

Honestly, if you can manage it, run the new Daemonic Incursion detachment, or at the very least, run the Warpflame Host formation... It may look 'meh' on paper, but consider;
Tzherald w/Lv3, conjuration, paradox
3x 11 Horrors
4x Exalted Flamers
2x 3 Flamers

The Exalts function as essentially emplaced turrets, banging off D3/S10!! shots at whatever needs killing. The Horrors function as they always have - WC batteries and summon farms, while the Tzherald can now toss around +2S Tzeentch powers.
The Flamers now each effectively come with Heavy Flamers, and can go back to their old school role of suicide drops who hit up choice targets with multiple templates.

Add in a small CAD that takes say, 2x min Nurglings for added board control (Infiltrate), your LoC, and then fill out with Grinders.


Otherwise, just fall back onto our staple "cheese" and take a re-rolling 2++ Screamerstar.
Not sure i can make the Tz formation you describe. I just don't have enough Exalted Flamers; I own 8 Flamers and one Exalted Flamer. So if I proxied the two extra Flamers, I'd be one short. I still could try and proxy a different model for the one I'm short; it's a friendly game and not a tournament. I cannot make all of this into a Daemonic Incursion list as it simply doesn't fit.

Also, depending on the LoC warlord trait, Malefic powers may not be necessary if I can roll the +1 Invulnerable save on the warlord from the new traits.

I'll pop a 3.0 version of the list and post er' up soon.
 

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Yeah, the real kicker to the Warpflame Host is that you really need 3-4+ Exalts to make it shine, but they're $50 a pop thanks to the chariot kit! >.<

I luckily got my hands on a bunch of them thanks to converting 4 'counts as' Plaguedrones out of the chariot kit... (Flamer on Disc portion = Changebringer from the old Storm of Chaos army list!)
I've built up 2 Exalts currently, and have the bitz to build a couple more. Plus the 18 Flamers I picked up back under the original 5th ed codex. (well before the WD 'update' made them 9000% ridiculous!)

By (ab)using the Exalts & min-sized Flamer squads, you can get a Warpflame Host formation for just shy of 800pts - about what you'd typically sink into a traditional Screamerstar.
The Detachment's auxiliary can be filled out with a Soul Grinder formation, or even just a single squad of Furies! (or forget the detachment, and you've still got roughly 700pts for a small CAD)

And the bonuses are IMHO, among the best of any of the 'mega detachments' in the game - right up there with the Decurion's Res Protocols buff & the Gladius' 'free transports for all!' bonus.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Here's 3.0 based on Experiment 626's advice. Since she is the authority on all things Tzeentch, I hope I have this as right as I can:

HQ - LoC ML3, Warlord, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser Reward (Staff of Change), The Impossible Robe
HQ - TzHerald ML3, Oracular Disc
HQ - TzHerald ML3, Loci of Conjuration, Paradox
HQ - Exalted Flamer
HQ - Exalted Flamer

Troops - Pink Horrors x12, Iridescent Horror, icon
Troops - Pink Horrors x12, Iridescent Horror
Troops - Pink Horrors x12, Iridescent Horror

Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Soul Grinder of Tzeentch w/ Baleful Torrent
Heavy - Skull Cannon of Khorne

I tried to take a Daemonic Incursion detachment and found it too expensive and can only have one TzHerald. I had points left over so I added 1 Pink Horror to each unit of Pinkies. I still could swap out the Skull Cannon for two 3 man units of Flamers(?).
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
The game went today and looked like this: It was my 3.0 list and an Eldar Wratih list (Wraithknight, 3x Wraithlords, Wraithblades, Wraithguard with D, an Autarch and some Dire Avengers. We were against (my son) A White Scar bike army complete with grav spam, Librarian, Apothecary, Chapter Master with Shield eternal, Thunderhammer, Command Squad all with Storm Shields, two Storm talons and he had a Knight Errant as an ally. His partner was a Tau list with a Riptide and Stormsurge, a bunch of marker drones and some Crisis Suits (I think).

First off, I roll crappy for just about everything; my warlord trait (which I rolled the same thing twice) was Soul Blaze on my attacks (yippie). I tried to get Cursed Earth on my LoC but to no avail. I tried to get Cursed Earth on some other units but again nothing. I ended up with Dark Flame on 3 units which was useless. I did get summoning by default which helped us immensely early on. One brief and shining moment was when my deep striking Herald on Disc got Prismatic Gaze. Even though I didn't get the +1 invulnerable save on my LoC, one of my greater rewards was in fact rerolling invulnerable saves.

Early on, I summoned up a storm clogging up the middle with Flesh Hounds and Bloodletters. The Tau player actually targeted these units first and after I made lots of saves, he continued to shoot at this fodder. My partner just could not roll if his life depended on it. The good thing was my fodder targets ate so much firepower that it kept our other units safe. We got really lucky in our picks of Maelstrom cards early and racked up a lot of points.

The game started to go against us when the grav ate up the Wraithlords. losing that kind of firepower and presence was not good. Also that round, the Wraithknight charged the Knight. My partner rolled lousy on his D hits and the Knight lived with one HP. The knight turned around and killed the Wraithknight outright. We managed to kill the Knight next round but the damage was done. The Stormsurge was the big winner by far doing most of the killing. I lost a Soul Grinder in turn 2 and 3.

By turn 4 my Herald finally came in and bullseyed right beside the Stormsurge. I hit him with the Prismatic Gaze, but only rolled a 5 on the D chart. I put 2 wounds on him and in their turn they killed the Herald. That's all the damage we put on him. We had some tall line of sight blocking buildings that prevented the Stormsurge from hitting much of the right side of the board which helped. Unfortunately by turn 5, my partner was completely wiped out and I might have been too if I hadn't summoned so much. In turn 4, I intended to turn my remaining TzHerald into a Bloodthirster but I failed the psychic roll. I forgot I had Paradox on him and could have passed <face palm>. The Herald died shortly thereafter. My LoC tried to summon some Plague Drones hoping for them to zoom about quickly, but he failed to summon them with 8 dice.

At the end no one had much left; the Eldar were gone, my son had one Storm Talon and his Chapter Master with one wound remaining. The Tau player had the Stormsurge, a few drones and some suits left and I had an uninjured LoC, some Flesh Hounds, one unit of 11 Pink Horrors and one Exalted Flamer. We won 9-8 in a blood bath.
 
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