Librarium Online Forums banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi there all, I was wondering if any of you old chaos vets could give me some suggestions or a heads up on this list I've made. It's designed to be ultracompetitive and dangerous to two armies in particular, the tau and the tyranids. Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated

Army Variant:
Night Lords +1x fast attack, -2x heavy supp

HQ
1x Lieutenant w. mcud, bp, ccw [52pts]

Elites
3x Obliterators [210pts]

Troops
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]

Fast Attack
5x CSM Bikers w. bltrs, mcud [175pts]
5x CSM Bikers w. bltrs, mcud [175pts]
5x CSM Bikers w. bltrs, mcud [175pts]
6x Furies [90pts]


TOTAL PTS: 1507




Some things I've been pining over:

Furies are great, no doubt about it, for 15 pts you get a s5 i5 jump pack marine, albeit with an invulnerable 5+ save, but the thing is daemons can be quite random, either not showing up or showing up too far back or right off the board, hence, they're great when you need them, but aren't 100% reliable. Hence, 1x 6 furie squad.

I could drop an oblit and add furious charge to the bikers, which would help against the tyranids (init) and all other armies making to wound rolls easier. Cons of this: models already deadly expensive, just raises cost more... The obliterators give me much needed heavy supp flexibility, as if all the lasc death teams do their jobs well and take out tanks/monstrous creatures then the obliterators can pump out some heavy bolter shots into the troop lines, but are still there for some added tank/monstrous creature death when you need them to be.

Well, enough rambling. I'm sure you all have thoughts, opinions, helpful suggestions, ideas, death threats, etc... lay em on me.

BTW, i playtested this list against an imperial guard force, i layed divine waste to pretty much every single heavy support option he had on turn one, and the bikers slammed into his front lines by turn two with minimal losses. He seceded and admitted defeat shortly afterwards. (the enemy is forced to decide which is the greater threat, the dark riders hurtling towards his front lines or the tankhunters/monstrous creature killers hiding in the trees. all in all, a terrifying force to contend with. I just need to fine tune it and was hoping you could all help me... thanks again..)
 

·
The other Kind of Fluff
Joined
·
8,843 Posts
Wow, lot's o lascannons, to be sure. It's good to see a bike-oriented n.l. army. Most people go the raptor route, which is a little less durable.

Ok, firstly, what kind of bug army(s) do you face? I can't imagine your build would do very well against a swarm- neither gene nor gaunt. If you see alot of m.c. bugs, then yeah, you should do well.

Against tau, well honestly, I can't see you outshooting them very well. Again, what kind of Tau army(s) do you see?

Finally, you build lacks overall specialized weapons, such as heavy, special, and power weapons. Even though you are focussing on the ranged aspect you are not utilizing certain aspects of your army. You h.q., for example, desperately needs a better weapon. He's cheap, yes, but does little more than say hello. The same thing applies to your bikes; they need some way of dealing damage aside from the bolters.
afraidofthedark said:
HQ
1x Lieutenant w. mcud, bp, ccw [52pts]
Alot of successful n.l. bike builds use the h.q. in conjunction w/ their bikes. Consider giving him a bike and a darkblade. I would drop one of your troop squads to siphen points. I think you will find that this change will greatly enhance your army.
afraidofthedark said:
Elites
3x Obliterators [210pts]
Always nice. You may be able to get away with dropping 1, if you should require points elsewhere.
afraidofthedark said:
Troops
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, tank hunters, mcud [105pts]
Drop tank hunter. As it stands you have so many lascannon shots (between these guys and your oblits) that you should be fine without it. As well, there are other parts of your army that needs to be loved on a bit. I'm going to suggest that you drop between 2-3 of these squads, in order to free up some points for some desperately need upgrades elsewhere in your army.

afraidofthedark said:
Fast Attack
5x CSM Bikers w. bltrs, mcud [175pts]
5x CSM Bikers w. bltrs, mcud [175pts]
5x CSM Bikers w. bltrs, mcud [175pts]
Good mobile squads, but that's about all they are. You really need some melta guns on them- 1-2 per squad. This will help compensate for losing 2-3 lascannons. Two good things here: 1- the melta is a better weapon and will be able to hit at its limited range, due to the bike's movement; 2- you are allowing your bikes to fill the purpose of some of your lascannon troop squads, while at the same time, retaining the bikes as c.c. oriented units as well- I'll get to this aspect right away.
I would suggest combining these squads into 2, then taking some aspiring champions in these squads. If, for instance, a dread charged into c.c. with one of your bike squads, they currently have no way to defend themselves. Also, bikes are best used in c.c.. Tactically, your bikes should turbo-boost, summon the furies, fire the melta guns, and then charge into c.c. This tactic is one of the reasons chaos bikers are amazing. As a bolter unit they are simply too costly; especially when you can take a 5 man infiltrating troop squad w/ bolters for half the cost.

Side note: If you put your h.q. on a bike and have him join one of these squads, then also, give him one of the melta guns in place of a melta gun in your bike squad. This will do 2 things: 1- it takes advantage of his higher b.s.; 2- it gives more points to your h.q. and less to the retinue, i.e., it will allow you to lose the bike that would have had the melta gun without losing the melta gun.
afraidofthedark said:
6x Furies [90pts]
So, you have success with these daemons? I've never made them work for me. If they do well for you, then by all means, use them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts
I think it needs work. You have a good amount of guys, so that's nice. They are in good power gamer squads. That's good too.

But you had to pay 3 points PER GUY to give all six of your tac. squads tank hunters, and only one guy per squad has a weapon that is for tank huntiing. And it is already S9. How about dropping 2 of those squads and making one good Havoc squad. Give them Tank Hunters. That plus your Obliterators should be sufficient for tank hunting. Or terminator killing, or shooting big tyrinids.

Your bikes have no upgrades making them virtually worthless against tropps in power armour(60-70% of what peaople play). So take one less squad and give the aspiring champ a power weapon and furious charge, or just a power fist, or some melta guns, or something.

170 points, 5 bolter shots a turn...YAY!

And anyways, if this is because you want to win and not because you like bikes, take less and take Raptors. They're cheaper and better.

And you lietenant is 52 points of nothing. At least spend 15 lousy poins and give him monstrous stature so he can kill somebody.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
838 Posts
here's what i'd suggest. (btw i lent my codex to a friend so don't have it right now)

why don't you drop tank hunters. its not really that important as lascannons are pretty good at tank busting already.
you could try the SM route and fit a plasma gun in there as well. (don't remember if chaos can take a heavy and special)

as was said already, your bikers lack any power weapons, which are real important. try and put a champ with a powerfist or power weapon in there. possibly mutation for more armour cutting attacks.

your leiutenant is a waste of points. he can't really do anything. at the very least give him a power weapon. but maybe stature and a few daemonic gifts.

no offence but not really ultra competetive.
 

·
The other Kind of Fluff
Joined
·
8,843 Posts
northoceanbeach And anyways said:
Hmm...raptors are sometimes limited in terms of the game play. The are exceptionally weak against genestealers and swarm armies; whereas bikes, due to their turbo-boost ability and +1 toughness, as still acceptable. Against other c.c. oriented armies, raptors typically have a hard time. Bikes to as well, but they have a little more maneuverability and staying power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
i see...

boydgarrett said:
Wow, lot's o lascannons, to be sure. It's good to see a bike-oriented n.l. army. Most people go the raptor route, which is a little less durable.
thanks, there's just something about bikers that gives me the shivers... seeing large shapes in the dark hurtling towards you, the buzz eventually growing louder and louder until finally the angels of the night are upon you and you scream, only to have it bloodily silenced by those harbringers of terror.....

that huge movement when turboboosting comes in handy alot as well as the 3+ inv save that results...

boydgarrett said:
Ok, firstly, what kind of bug army(s) do you face? I can't imagine your build would do very well against a swarm- neither gene nor gaunt. If you see alot of m.c. bugs, then yeah, you should do well.

Against tau, well honestly, I can't see you outshooting them very well. Again, what kind of Tau army(s) do you see?
well, usually i'm pitted against nids with 2-3 squads of 20-30 spine/flesh gaunts, backed up by 1-2 squads of genestealers w. carapace (the only way i've been able to take these is to shoot them up with heavy bolters..), sometimes a broodlord, further reinforced by either a winged hive tyrant, or a tyrant w.guard, and a few carnifexes and zoanthropes, my plan was to snipe the dangerous mc's and zoanthropes, hopefully killing off most of the synapes by the first few turns, then outshoot the nids from afar, and through attrition dwindle their numbers until assault without too much fear of unholy outnumbering is possible and use the bikes and furies to launch a final and devastating attack.

against tau, i usually fight 2-3 completely decked out hammerheads which, due to only allowing glancing hits, usually last unitl the last few turns with my other armies (each appx 200pts, hence my positive outlook with the above outlined list) along with a large amount of uberly annoying crisis suits, backed up by quite a few squads of firewarriors, further reinforced by a pathfinder team, and sometimes i'm pitted against a knitted out stealth team. also with an ethereal, which with the above list i was hoping to slam a unit of bikers into him in the 2nd turn or so thus forcing the entire army to take a moral test, *insert evil laugh here*. i usually didn't make it so far as to pose a threat to him with some of my other lists... i prioritize killing the pathfinders via heavy bolters so he cant stealth weapon and/or plasma me to death, then i go after those pesky crisis (which most of the time i can't see with heavy weapons due to jump 6 out, shoot, jump 6 back in, hence with the above list i am a bit shaky on this point.... was going to root them out with biker teams and furies)

boydgarrett said:
Finally, you build lacks overall specialized weapons, such as heavy, special, and power weapons. Even though you are focussing on the ranged aspect you are not utilizing certain aspects of your army. You h.q., for example, desperately needs a better weapon. He's cheap, yes, but does little more than say hello. The same thing applies to your bikes; they need some way of dealing damage aside from the bolters.
Alot of successful n.l. bike builds use the h.q. in conjunction w/ their bikes. Consider giving him a bike and a darkblade. I would drop one of your troop squads to siphen points. I think you will find that this change will greatly enhance your army.
interesting points, i seem to have overlooked some things... thank you very much :D i will drop a troops team and work on a better lord config. I especially like the melta weapon ideas you noted further on. the lord hitting with one on a 2+ is just evil...

boydgarrett said:
Drop tank hunter. As it stands you have so many lascannon shots (between these guys and your oblits) that you should be fine without it. As well, there are other parts of your army that needs to be loved on a bit. I'm going to suggest that you drop between 2-3 of these squads, in order to free up some points for some desperately need upgrades elsewhere in your army.
i will also thoroughly consider dropping tank hunter on the squads as i do agree it is slightly overkill, indeed it is alot of lascannons... the only question i have is that being able to pen a russ or raider on a 4+ rather than a 5+ may well be worth 75 extra points, no?? if i drop yet another one of my 6 hunter squads in addition to losing the hunter skill on the remaining four it would free up 270 points. what do you suggest I do with the 270 points then? possibly, add a few more bikers to each squadron, as well as 2x melta guns to each(with one being on the lord)? would this not make my biker squads prime target, raising the amount of deaths suffered tenfold? if i were the enemy i would barely glance at the four non hunter squadrons in the trees with all those juicy bikes to blow up.............

Are asp champs even worth the trouble? in the past I have found that they rarely get half their points back, especially biker asp champs.... With regards to the dread problem couldn't I just destroy that 6" per turn monster with my overabundance of tank killing weapons turn one or two? don't want to throw my precious bikes in against one of those anyways, no?


"...bikes are best used in c.c.. Tactically, your bikes should turbo-boost, summon the furies, fire the melta guns, and then charge into c.c. This tactic is one of the reasons chaos bikers are amazing. As a bolter unit they are simply too costly; especially when you can take a 5 man infiltrating troop squad w/ bolters for half the cost." << This is quite possibly the best help I have ever recieved! although, i do wonder about the fact that when facing guard, and nids with a 5+, wouldn't the bolter be safer and less expensive? i can only nuke so many infantry with melta shots...

"...Side note: If you put your h.q. on a bike and have him join one of these squads, then also, give him one of the melta guns in place of a melta gun in your bike squad. This will do 2 things: 1- it takes advantage of his higher b.s.; 2- it gives more points to your h.q. and less to the retinue, i.e., it will allow you to lose the bike that would have had the melta gun without losing the melta gun..." correction, THIS is by far the most dangerous thing that I have ever heard of, thank you for notifying me, I didn't realise you could place a meltagun on the lord?

and the furies, yah, they've litererally taken over games before in a larger squad of say 18... just the randomness sometimes screws things up....

thanks so much for your suggestions, you were extremely helpful and i anxiously look forward to your response :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
:d

northoceanbeach said:
I think it needs work. You have a good amount of guys, so that's nice. They are in good power gamer squads. That's good too.

But you had to pay 3 points PER GUY to give all six of your tac. squads tank hunters, and only one guy per squad has a weapon that is for tank huntiing. And it is already S9. How about dropping 2 of those squads and making one good Havoc squad. Give them Tank Hunters. That plus your Obliterators should be sufficient for tank hunting. Or terminator killing, or shooting big tyrinids.
thank you as well for pointing this out to me, i am considering changes, although placing all in one massive havoc squad would mean utter death, as the tau would outmanouver and remain out of sight, and the nids would instantly swarm or stay out of line of sight. i hate putting all my eggs in one basket so to speak.... although, you do make a good point, in terms of putting the 3pts to good use, screw lasc though, WAY too pricey, possibly 4x missile launchers with tank hunters though.... i'll look into it thank you :)

northoceanbeach said:
Your bikes have no upgrades making them virtually worthless against tropps in power armour(60-70% of what peaople play). So take one less squad and give the aspiring champ a power weapon and furious charge, or just a power fist, or some melta guns, or something.
i am going to give my bikers some melta guns and throw the upgraded lord/lieutenant in one of them, this should help no? thanks again :)

and i tend to agree heavily with boydgarrett about the bikes vs. raptors. for the opponents i'm facing anyways, as well as the increaced toughness and speed boost, not to mention the 3+inv save i will NEED against guard's pie plates, tau's plasma, and any other anti marine weapon you can name... i duno, just my thoughts anyways....

thanks again for the reply :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
HQ
1x Lord w. mcud, bp, dark blade, bike, melta gun [136pts]

Elites
3x Obliterators [210pts]

Troops
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, mcud [90pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, mcud [90pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, mcud [90pts]
5x CSM w. 4x bltr, 1x lasc, mcud [90pts]


Fast Attack
6x CSM Bikers w. 4bltrs, 2 meltas, mcud [230pts]
6x CSM Bikers w. 4bltrs, 2 meltas, mcud [230pts]
6x CSM Bikers w. 4bltrs, 1 melta, mcud [220pts]

8x Furies [120pts]


TOTAL PTS: 1506


hows this? doing better but still not quite there?


I have some qualms with the biker squads... they're scary as hell, but maybe too scary? "super freaky deaky fire magnets" would be an accurate depiction......

also remember my prime opponents are not space marines in power armour for the most part. nids, little to no armour. tau, 4+ still good but not deadly, some 3+ meltas would be great against...

iduno, more oppinions anyone?
 

·
The other Kind of Fluff
Joined
·
8,843 Posts
afraidofthedark said:
well, usually i'm pitted against nids with 2-3 squads of 20-30 spine/flesh gaunts, backed up by 1-2 squads of genestealers w. carapace (the only way i've been able to take these is to shoot them up with heavy bolters..), sometimes a broodlord, further reinforced by either a winged hive tyrant, or a tyrant w.guard, and a few carnifexes and zoanthropes, my plan was to snipe the dangerous mc's and zoanthropes, hopefully killing off most of the synapes by the first few turns, then outshoot the nids from afar, and through attrition dwindle their numbers until assault without too much fear of unholy outnumbering is possible and use the bikes and furies to launch a final and devastating attack.
Hmm. You have good tactics against the zoanthropes (I don't like facing these things either). I'm not sure about the attrition, because I'm not sure, frankly, if you have enough bolters to make do.

afraidofthedark said:
what do you suggest I do with the 270 points then? possibly, add a few more bikers to each squadron, as well as 2x melta guns to each(with one being on the lord)?
I love spending points! Aside from the aforementioned suggestions, buy more bikes perhaps (as you said). I've found that you can never have too many bikes, when they are your primary attack force. Actually, that's not true, but in your case I think it will make all the difference.

afraidofthedark said:
would this not make my biker squads prime target, raising the amount of deaths suffered tenfold? if i were the enemy i would barely glance at the four non hunter squadrons in the trees with all those juicy bikes to blow up.............
Yep, they will become the primary threat. Two ways of handling this: 1- increase their number; 2- make them only slightly better. Concerning the later: give them melta guns and increase their total to 6. Of course, I still prefer an infiltrating troop squad w/ two melta guns to the bike version, because they are cheaper. Basically, if you want to use bikes, you have to be prepared to take them into c.c., and the only way this works is with a power weapon/fist. When in doubt always experiment. To let you know, in a 1500 point game, I've lost 8 bikes (count that 8!) the first round against a space marine shooty army. Of course, having 2 squads of 5 increases the survivability, because your opponent then has to separate his firepower, whence he will probably overcompensate against one 5 man bike squad, and undercompensate for the other. You know, this is one of those difficult decisions, where you're just going to have to fiddle with them a bit. Perhaps other players will have something to say about it.

afraidofthedark said:
Are asp champs even worth the trouble? in the past I have found that they rarely get half their points back, especially biker asp champs.
Well, I've never had a probablem w/ my biker a.c. making his points back. More than anything, I've had some trouble with the entire squad making their points back, but then again, they usually serve as a diversion, in which case they are worth the points.


afraidofthedark said:
i do wonder about the fact that when facing guard, and nids with a 5+, wouldn't the bolter be safer and less expensive? i can only nuke so many infantry with melta shots...
Less expensive- yes. Against I.G., I try and get into c.c. ASAP. Bikes are a nightmare for I.G. to manage in c.c.. Against bugs I usually can outrun them and just keep firing, in which case the melta guns would be less effective (you would want to remain more than 12" away). This is one of those sacrifices I make when playing against bugs w/ bikes. While the melta is not good against the swarm, it is very good against most other armies.


afraidofthedark said:
I didn't realise you could place a meltagun on the lord?
You can't, but you can take a melta gun on the bike the lord rides- a good thing to be sure :)
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
389 Posts
Are asp champs even worth the trouble? in the past I have found that they rarely get half their points back, especially biker asp champs.... With regards to the dread problem couldn't I just destroy that 6" per turn monster with my overabundance of tank killing weapons turn one or two? don't want to throw my precious bikes in against one of those anyways, no?
You kinda answered your own question. You don't want to throw away your expensive bikes against a dreadnought, but without the fist they will die if assaulted by a dread, or a MC, wraithlord etc. With the fist they can hit back. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing an expensive squad locked in cc against a model they cannot hurt.

The important thing is to not go overboard on the aspiring champions. Not every squad needs them, and you certainly don't want to spend too many points on each. That being said I consider a power fist or at the very least power weapon almost mandatory in a squad that will get close to the enemy. With a power fist there is actually nothing in the game that cannot be killed by your bikers, without it there is plenty of things they cannot kill at all in cc.

Arizzar
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top