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Hi all. I run an unfortunaterly dated Raven Guard-like chapter which was based off the previous codex's special army rule which allowed me to take CC wpns on my tactical marines. I now have to rethink some stuff and only have 1 tactical squad with bolters. My question is for an army with a fairly weak troop base (1 10-man tactical squad, 5 squads of sniper scouts), 20 assault marines, 4 speeders, dreadnaught, Land Raider Crusader, and Chaplain, are 5 Vanguard veterans going to be a redundant waste of points, or are they effective enough to help counter-balance my armies weaknesses? I'm asking because they aren't assembled so I don't want to go through the trouble if it doesn't matter.
 

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Son of LO
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First point: Vanguard aren't really points-efficient, not because they're incapable of turning enemy units into pulp (which they are) but because they cost too damn much. A jump pack Vanguard squad without any upgrades is over three hundred points, and the only alternative to jump packs is a Land Raider. So with upgrades and an IC, you end up sinking damn near 600 points into one unit that's going to be lucky if it doesn't get shot up before getting into combat.

Second point: You're still welcome to try them out, like I did, but if you're planning to run them with a Chaplain I'd highly recommend taking a full squad to make best use of the Litanies of Hate re-roll.

Last point: Try larger Scout squads, look into using Telion (very good special character for scout-heavy armies) and invest in a second tactical squad. Scouts on their own don't cut the mustard any more, you need at least two tactical squads for stuff to get going.
 

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You could run it out of the Black Templar codex. Not quite as competitive as the 5e Marine dex, perhaps, but that army just plain sounds like a BT army, and you could remain WYSiWYG.
 

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I have see SOOOO many threads raising this same question. I also find myself from time to time trying to find a reason to use them. It seems that everyone has come to the same conclusion... The unit is amazing in CC, but just way too expensive. The only way they could be cost effective is without jump pack, then you don't get to use there special rule and you waste a fast attack slot for a unit that is not fast (what is up with them being a fast attack anyway?) It seems GW would have come to the same conclusion that everyone else has when they were game testing. Something needs to change about this unit before people will find a need for them in their army.
 

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Now w/ English voice-over
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With that many assault marines you might want to field the army as a Blood Angels count-as army when that time comes.. Right now I think as Seraphim_Guard said that the BT codex might suit you better, even the SW could be interesting to let your marines keep their pistols/ccw (although they don't really have attractive jump pack troops).

Anyway as to answer your question: whether 5 Vanguards will just be a drag? Not necessarily, but don't expect them to perform that extraordinary either. Assuming that you intend to give them jump packs, their main problem in most armies is that they'll just get shot to pieces when fielded this way being the only marines outside transports, however your list includes 20 other jump packed marines that they could easily hide behind.

I think it could be interesting to know what you consider your armys weaknesses, I don't see the Vanguard being able to do anything that other units already in your list couldn't do just as well.

For competitive play I'd never suggest anyone to use Vanguard, in the end their cost is just too high, even in a list like yours where their weaknesses is reduced.

Currently I think your army would be better off with another troops choice (just count the bolt pistols/ccw as bolters for the time being, should be okay unless you go to a tournament, other players will understand it when you tell how your list got nerfed by GW).

Those were my thoughts on the situation anyway.. Hope they'll be slightly useful :)
 

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Yeah... but without jump packs they are not fast... not sure they should be fast attack unless they take JP.... Either way, they are just not worth the points, which is too bad because I really wont them to be good :)
 

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i concur my man. awsome cc squad but for less points you can field TH SS termies and they are way better at staying alive. id consider BA with that list. i play BA and imperial fist but my BA army is almost all assault aquads too they count as troops. on the back Vanguard can assault out of a deep strike which is cool. the way i feel about most stuff is try it. i know putting them together is annoying and painting them for them to never get used but then you will know for sure what they do for your list. hpe this helps broseph
 

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It seems to me that (having never used the unit and just based my opinion on the many threads like this one) they are most effective at taking down units that are extremely hard and expensive - viz a viz Terminators, TEQs, Nidzillas, Ork Mega Armored Nobs, etc. Because of the way combat works, if they can't hit isolated units, they are going down at the end of combat, so it's worth it to go for something of near, equal, or greater points.
 

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I personally love Vanguard, they are awesome and perform well in games, of course I give a chaplain to them too, they are awesome ran that way
 

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The Future
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After a disasterous game where 300 points of vanguard died to a squad of 10 guardmen I always give them a chaplain too - it means they can't infiltrate with Shrike, but if it means I actually get to hit something when I get there I don't mind arriving a turn later! :(
 

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Not for the points they cost. I've played against one of my friends using Space Wolves and every time they failed. Some of their most recent failures include loosing all but one member to a dreadnoughts flamer plus one melta shot, deep striking into my models numerous times, and dying to a 10 man grey hunter squad because of furious charge (Ragnar Blackmane's war howl power). The way he put points into them they were more expensive than his assault termies and died twice as easily.
 

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The Future
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In a recent tournament over four games I had two epic wins with them (at one point clearing almost half a board of necrons on their own) and two utter fails (but then they weren't really designed to fight 100 tiny nids!)
 
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