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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It seems everyone is discussing the new units of the VC (special and rares)
While this is important, I see no discussion of the core choices. (Which are the very basis of any army)

So what do you guys think?
what do you see yourself fielding with the new army book out? (I see a lot of zombie cores instead of skeleton ones)
what are you thinking of equipping them with?
Sticking to the good old skeletons? or trying out some new combinations or "builds"? How about the changes in ghouls?

Looking forward to seeing what you guys have to say.
 

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I don't see Zombies being a common core choice at all with the new book (at least in the current one they can be used as character bunkers).

Zombies are incredibly poor in combat, bad enough that they might even make things worse by using them to flank charge! Even basic infantry will generate 2-3 kills per combat against them (ensuring they hold).
On top of that they can't hold characters and can't pursue!

Skeletons are a much better ranked combat unit, I will be taking 2 units (1x HW&S, 1xSP&S) for variety because they will generate more and lose less CR. Add in a Vamp with the ability to raise them above starting size and you can ensure you outnumber etc as well.
Skeletons look to me to be the best core choice we have (which counts towards your minimum core).

Ghouls used as ranked infantry are inferior to Skeletons (no save, no standard & musc), so for them to be an effective choice they must be used differently. Obviously using them with a Vamp who can move them before the game start is one, another is using them as smaller units for flank charges (where their quantity of attacks and T4 makes them much better than Zombies).
This also allows you to use 10 ghoul units as handy bullet taker units for Necromancers when your Skeletons enter combat.

To summise:
  • Skeletons for large infantry blocks.
  • Ghouls for small support units, caster bunkers and road blocks if you cant summon chod Zombies.
  • Zombies not even worth 4 points :D
 

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/botnobot/
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I still think zombies are worth it for their points. They serve the same function they always did, serving as a tarpit for enemy units while you look for flanks and rears to swing combat. And starting with a big block means that enemy units who do flee will suffer a pile of attacks. Even at low strength, 5d6 attacks is going to kill something.

Personally, I like that dire wolves and the corpse cart don't count towards core choices for army selection. It would lead to some ridiculous army builds.

I think the ghouls blow. I'll take two units of skellies and a big block of zombies.



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Perhaps, but I just see them giving up too much CR to be worthwhile especially as CR/Fear is how Undead win combats. Ghouls although twice as expensive are about 50% tougher to kill, and about three times more effective at killing.

I do think Ghouls will be harder to get value from than Skeletons, but I don't think they are useless. Their high toughness and quantity of attacks should make them effective for tackling flankers (tend to be low str & armour).

I also feel the lack of ability to flee is a big loss, sure 5D6 hits sounds nice but even if you can get it that's what ~15 STR2 hits = 3 dead Empire Spears, 1 dead Dwarf Warrior!?
Compared to a better than 50% chance of wiping the unit out entirely!


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What I see happening with Zombies is situations like, Zombies Charge HE spear block, then next turn HE block Flanked by Skeletons.
The HE will kill 7 Zombies, combined with a banner thats 8CR. The undead will get ~1.2 kill, outnumber, standard, 3 ranks and flank = 7CR.

If that front unit had been 10 Ghouls (less points) then the HE would only have killed 3.5 thus shifting the CR balance hugely against the HE. Obviously HE spears get plenty of attacks, but their not exactly elite troops which is why I used them.
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I think the problem with the VC Core choices are people assume they're for fighty, and are thus supposed to kill stuff. I just don't see that happening.

From looking at the 3 block units, we have 2 functions. Fighty Infantry, Tarpit Infantry, and a Hybrid of the two. Ghouls are easily our best fighter infantry in the Core section. Zombies are obviously a giant tarpit. Skeletons are a nice Hybrid of the two.

The thing about Zombies is, for one, there's two for every one of the other types of Infantry. So are 40 Zombies better than 20 Skeletons? Oh yes, says I, oh yes. Skeletons will probably get better combat res, but not by much (1-2 wounds, likely, but you're alot less likely to outnumber). However Zombies are both easy to heal, and numerous. You will not kill them all. Like as not, you can count that anything fighting your Zombies will either break from fear, or be fighting them for-EVER. A unit doing nothing is, effectively, the same as a unit destroyed.

I personally really like Zombies. I also really like Skeletons. Ghouls are begining to grow on me, but I'm not sure their two attacks are really enough to matter. Regardless, I'm more inclined to use the tarpit tactic. However I think it's not entirely smart to bring very many of them to begin with. One minimum unit, at best. With how easy it is to bring them on the table with casting, you can dedicate your points to the more killy infantry, or, better yet, specials and rares.

Me, I'll likely bring full blocks of Skeles, or small blocks with "Lord of the Dead" casters. The Zombies will come from me Necros and Vamps.

Honestly, I don't put much stock in any of the other cores, cept the Corpse Cart. I'll have alot of corpse carts...
 

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:)

OMG, the meaning of zombies unlife is not as alternative to skeletons or ghouls, they are not for combat resolution or fight with HE spearmens.
They are here to be viped out to save more expansive units. What is better buy two handed wights standart against massive shooting or make easily raisable living screen and take another regiment flag? Its better if your skeletons are attacked with oponents high strength units with strength ignoring their armour save or dance zombies into them? Is it easier rise 5 zombies behind enemy regiments back to destroy them when they run out or rise 5 skeletons?
Their purpose is dying. They simply worth they point if they fight with something what is able slave others your more expansive units with ease (ignoring armor saves, big monster, uber unit, unit with lord) and tie them for some rounds to flank charge or in killing when enemy unit simply don´t repay their cost.They are better for that because they cost 4 not 6 points! For units which they are suitable for their stats means no difference in speed of their death. and now you have +33% more of them.

Dont use them against spearmens but against blocking bolthrower sight on your grave guard, against white lions, phoenix guard, to tie HE lord on dragon for 2 turns and more.
 

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I've never liked zombies, primarily because of the models and the concept of rotting things wandering around the battlefield.

I know, I know, what's the point of collecting an undead if you can't stomach a few zombies?

I don't have the answer to that question. However, I do know that I'll probably be sticking to Skeletons (hand weapons and shields) and Dire Wolves for my core choices.

Maybe a corpse cart if I like the rules, but I'm still not sure about it.
 

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Nightlord
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Zombies will be great in the new edition because of how cheap they are. They will be a very cost effective speedbump that can hold up an expensive enemy unit for a round until you can get the flank charge on it. Even if the zombies can't pursue the unit that is combo charging with them can. Zombies will add cheap CR and outnumber to any fight, it gives them a very distinct role in the new edition as opposed to the overlap they had with skeletons in the last edition. I will personally be taking 2 units of each zombies, skeletons, and dire wolves, in the new rules.
 

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I like the skeletons and zombies, skeletons were good before now there better. I'm not too sure about ghouls i think I'm going to miss them as skirmishers and not convinced that they will perform well as ranked infantry.

I think there is no real reason to start with zombies as it is so easy to raise a decent sized new unit of them, I'd rather spend points elsewhere, even if you need to fill your core choices I think 10 ghouls would be a much better option.

And the fact skeletons can take a banner is brilliant, banner of endless nightmare and war banner will suit them perfectly.
 

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/botnobot/
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I like the skeletons and zombies, skeletons were good before now there better. I'm not too sure about ghouls i think I'm going to miss them as skirmishers and not convinced that they will perform well as ranked infantry.

I think there is no real reason to start with zombies as it is so easy to raise a decent sized new unit of them, I'd rather spend points elsewhere, even if you need to fill your core choices I think 10 ghouls would be a much better option.

And the fact skeletons can take a banner is brilliant, banner of endless nightmare and war banner will suit them perfectly.
Yeah, the banners are fantastic. Extra ranks, counting double their US. Brilliant, like you said.



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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I agree with skeletons.

What does everyone feel about spears being used?
I personally am thinking of going one block of each.
 

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In general I find sword and shield are better 9 times out of 10, but I tend to play aggressively.
I thought Spears were the aggressive option ;) they are always equally capable or better than swords at killing.
Personally I think Swords are the better option simply because of the better save, minimising the CR I give away.
 

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With skeletons I'd just keep them with swords. Their attacks pretty much suck, so they won't kill much even with spears- I just use them to hold up enemy units when I don't feel like taking them out yet.

As for zombies... if I took them, I'd probably take units of 30 for more ranks, but I think they'd be better to just raise and nehek, maybe with the extra zombies item. I'm just annoyed that they don't have a bloodline power that makes IoN get +1 to cast like skellies, ghouls, and wolves/bats, though the fact that you're guarenteed to raise between 5 and 10 rather than between 1 and 6 sorta makes up for it. I can see people raising 11 or so with raise dead, and then IoNing the unit up to 20+ all in the same turn. And if the unit dies, the enemy only gets 50 VP. A 6 PD VC should be able to reliably do this every turn if the enemy doesn't try to stop him (which means your other vampires can try this anyways). Raise dead + BoA = instant flank/rear bonus + enemy loses ranks. :)
 

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Zombies are like Goblins to a O&G army or slaverats to a Skaven army.

In a very large block, they can tie up just about any unit for your other, harder hitting units to get in there and do some damage. The fact that you can through magic you can raise at least one rank also makes them far easier to replace/tie up units.
 

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Just for the hell of it someone should play some giant (100 zombies in 5 or 10 ranks) units of zombies just to see how annoyed their opponents get. Run it up, get it stuck in with half a dozen units and then see if you can win the combat by flanking them or something.
 

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I thought Spears were the aggressive option they are always equally capable or better than swords at killing.
Personally I think Swords are the better option simply because of the better save, minimising the CR I give away.
I'd think of swords as the agreesive weapon because the attack in two ranks for spears doesn't work on the charge. So, if you're more agressive you'll be doing lots of charging in which case it'd be better off to just have the +1 to your save. But yeah, I'd prefer swords on them in most cases as well.

As for the core units, I'm not too sure really. Taking big blocks of zombies (like 100) seems pretty fun to me even if it's not that effective.

I'll probably do some experimenting with the units if I get a chance to use them though. The only paticular tactic I have in mind though is to just tie them up with a block of zombies so I can flank charge them with another unit. If it forced them to flee, at least the other unit could chase them down if neccessary.

brush
 

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Zombies: will be used as tarpits, exactly as they should be. They are the easiest to raise and can take a full command which makes them ideal for this.

Skeletons: Much better guard unit for a character, and if you give them Lord of the dead very easy to maintain. I would never bother with Spears, take the 4+ save every time.

Ghouls: Best core unit for VCs now, why? Two poisoned attacks at toughness 4 in ranks? The T4 makes up for no armour, and while no banner is bad, seeing as undead are unbreakable it won't make nearly such a difference. Also Ghoulkin is wicked, though not quite sure how it could be best used.

Dire Wolves: Same old fast expendable unit, with the occasional flank charge.

Corpse Cart: Two or three of these with Balefire = no enemy magic and three bound spells, yes please :party:

Bat Swarms: Good movement, but little else to offer for the cost of over 4 skeles a base.

Will Adams
 

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Dire wolves also lose +1 strength on the charge.

I think skeletons vs ghouls depends on what you want them for. Ghouls are the more offensive option since they have 2 attacks and poison, but skeletons are a better defensive option due to their 4+ AS in hth. I think the only time the T4 is better than a 4+ AS is if your against s5. So pretty much Ghouls are better against S5+ enemies, while skeletons are better against s3 or s4.

But then again, skeletons also get banners and musicians.
 

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On the plus side, zombies are no longer braindead, so they will strike first against great weapons.

On the downside they're now even worse in combat than they were before. I never thought i'd be able to say that.

I see a big rise in skeletons being picked as core
 
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