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Herman1004
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Map: http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/...otewar Maps/04_axe_bite_pass.jpg?t=1242721313

Timk (Army 1):

L – Bloodthirster 535
Dark Insanity, Armour of Khorne, Collar of Khorne

H - Herald of Khorne, Battle Standard 240
Jugger, Armour of Khorne, Battle Standard Bearer, Great Standard of Sundering

C - 24x Bloodletters 343
Full Command, Icon of Endless War

C - 10x Bloodletters 138
Standard, Musician

C - 10x Bloodletters 120

C - 8x Chaos Furies 96

C - 8x Chaos Furies 96

S - 8x Flesh Hounds 280

S – 8x Flesh Hounds 280

R - 4x Bloodcrushers 300
Champion

R - 1x Bloodcrusher 70


NO TACTICS SUBMITTED


null_sheen (Army 2):

Sorcerer, lvl 2, MoN, Infernal Puppet, Enchanted Shield, Steed <general> 206pts SPELLS: 1, 3
Sorcerer, Lvl 2, MoT, Book of Secrets, Dispel Scroll, Steed 206pts SPELLS: 1, 4 + Lore of Fire 1
Sorcerer, Lvl 1, MoT, Rod of Torment, Bloodcurdling Roar, Disc of Tzeentch 190 pts SPELLS: 1
Exalted Champion, BSB, Bronze Armour of Zhrakk, Sword of Might, Favor of the Gods, Shield, Steed 196pts

20 Marauders, MoS, Full Command, Light Armour, Shield 150 pts
20 Marauders, MoS, Full Command, Light Armour, Shield 150 pts
5 Marauder Horse, MoS, Muso 81 pts
5 Marauder Horse, MoS, Muso 81 pts
5 Warhounds 30 pts
5 Warhounds 30pts

5 Chaos Knights, Banner of Rage 255 pts
5 Chaos Knights, MoS, Warbanner 255 pts
1 Chaos Chariot, MoS 130 pts
1 Chaos Chariot, MoS 130 pts

1 Hellcannon 205 pts
1 Hellcannon 205 pts

Relief Force:
Exalted, MoK, Jugger, Collar of Khorne, Sword of Battle, Shield 230pts
5 Chaos Knights, MoK 230 pts
6 Warhounds 36pts

Deployment:
I will castle up on the hill to my left with the cannons in the rear. The knights on the flanks (board edges Slaanesh left, Khorne right)), Infantry in the center and chariots between knights and infantry blocks. Screening in front of them will be the dogs and Marauder horse making sure that the rage knights are defiantly covered.
All units will be in V formations to take advantage of any flanking opportunities I may receive and to allow flanking by the hellcannons if things go wrong.
The Nurgle Sorcerer will go in one block and the Tzeentch in the other block.
The disk rider will be on ground level around the chariots.
Exalted in the Slaanesh Knights.

Magic Lore:
Book = Fire (auto take fireball)

Lvl 2 Nurgle = Auto taking Magnificent Buboes


Lvl 2 Tzeentch = Auto taking Flickering Fire

Lvl 1 Tzeentch = Auto taking Flickering Fire

Tactics:
As he has no shooting or magic I am going to castle up and make him come to me.
For the first turn or two I will not move, if I win first turn and I can see the bloodthirster or the fleshhound units I will take it and fire. Otherwise I will make the daemons go first.

Hellcannons will fire for the first 2 turns minimum with a targeting priority of the Bloodthirster, then Fleshhounds, then the large unit of Bloodletters whatever they can see at the time in that order.
Magic Targeting priority will be as follows.
Rod of Torment – Furies, 24 Bloodletter unit, smaller bloodletter units, Bloodcrusher units.
Flickering Fire – (2 dice if sundered) Bloodthirster, Bloodcrushers, Furies, 24 Bloodletter unit, smaller bloodletter units
Nurgle – (2 dice) Buboes on the BSB then the single Bloodcrusher, then the bloodcrusher unit.
Book - Furies, 24 Bloodletter unit, smaller bloodletter units, Bloodcrusher units.

Dogs and horse will move into diverting positions after the daemons first turn, I plan to divert the fleshhounds as much as possible. If the fleshounds never get into combat with anything else I will be happy. Bait and flee is the order of the day to pull units out of position.

Not interested in charging the furies unless I can get an advantageous tactical wheel. Knights I want to match the fleshhounds, Chariots into bloodletters. Infantry into crushers or small bloodletters.

If any units do manage to get into my lines and break through the hellcannons will then charge into the breach to plug and hold the gap, even against the bloodthirster.

BSB will move into infantry blocks if the fighting is on the opposite flank.

Disk sorcerer will not leave my lines unless the fliers in the daemon army have been delt with, he will snipe with the rod and roar.


VOTING ENDS IN 48 HOURS


Regards,
 

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PokeSavant
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539 Posts
I think with no magic and no shooting, and the castle tactic being quite viable here, the Chaos Warriors are going to take it. They really are forcing the Daemons to them, and should be able to setup quite nicely to receive what makes it over. null_sheen
 

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It's what's for dinner
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1,284 Posts
I almost want to vote for Timk just on the basis that null sheen is going to use his hounds t screen instead of march blocking and forcing frenzied charges as he should, buying as much time for shooting and magic to take its toll.

The problem with null's magic is that all the units have magic resistance, and he doesn't have a sorcerer lord that can really add the extra power dice to overcome it easily. However, he does have units that can go toe to toe with anything but the bloodthirster (and possibly the big unit of bloodcrushers) so I think he has a slight advantage. null sheen
 

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I agree with the above, with the castle tactic, the daemons will have to run over an open field at a strong line. There will be no real way to stop the casters and cannon selecting the best targets, and I like the target priority, I think the daemons will be lucky to make it to null_sheen's lines.
 

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Champion of Chaos
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2,415 Posts
The magic for the warriors is going to be pretty much worthless. 8 dice against all that magic resistance. The units he wants to keep alive will stay alive and none of the magic will touch the blood thirster or his hound units. I wish I could see his tactics, but I think the bloodthirster on turn 2 or 3 is going to kill himself a sorcerer, maybe 2.

The Warriors core units are flat out worthless in this fight too. If he hides a sorcerer in a knight unit, that unit will be dead by turn 3. Turn 5 most likely sees the other unit dead. Barring a lucky hell cannon shot, the thirster will dominate. And while he's flying around killing whatever he pleases, you still have to worry about massive units of everything khorne has to throw at him.

Magic being pretty much worthless, core being definitely worthless and nothing to stop the blood thirster means a massacre for Timk.
 

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As stated before, unless the deamons have a crazy strat then null_sheen is going to blast them to goo before CC is even considered.
 

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RAWR! KROXIGOR!!
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  • The DoC have the first turn.
  • The WoC have only 7 PD (I think). Magic Resistance + sundering on Tzeentch should see the DoC though pretty well.
  • Hellcannons can't kill everything at once. And one is dead turn 2.
  • The DoC have 5 combat units that could kill any unit in the WoC army (4 of these units move 14" or more, so charge turn 2-3)
Timk
 

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Member
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367 Posts
  • The DoC have the first turn.
  • The WoC have only 7 PD (I think). Magic Resistance + sundering on Tzeentch should see the DoC though pretty well.
  • Hellcannons can't kill everything at once. And one is dead turn 2.
  • The DoC have 5 combat units that could kill any unit in the WoC army (4 of these units move 14" or more, so charge turn 2-3)
Timk
I would like to defend my list against this

I have 8pd and a bound
I have stated in my tactics ill be casting everything on 2 dice
that means i will get off 2-3 spells every turn even with his spell resistance his free 2DD will only be able to assist stopping two spells and my highest target number will be 6 (on two dice and +1 to cast)

If he uses the 2DD to make sure to stop the flickering fires, then the rod, book and buboes all go off.
If he uses the 2DD to stop the other spells going off and use 2MR against the flickering fire i still have a 60% chance of the flickering fires going off and a 50% chance of 2 other spells going off and 1 spell will go off almost 100% chance.

So if he protects the BT and the BSB dies in two turns and the bloodletter block is ravaged. Or he protects the BSB and the bloodletter is running the gantlet of hellcannons and flickering fires.

While the hellcannons cannot kill everything there are a number of turns where they will shoot. The bloodthirster has to be vulnerable for at least 1 to 2 turns (see below why a second turn)

Last but in no means least even the bloodthirster is very hard pressed to kill a hellcanon in a single turn average 9 attacks = 6 hits, 3 wounds - hellcannons have 5 wounds and unbreakable.
The BT could be wounded by a hellcannon shot or magic by this time and the hellcannon and crew get to attack back possibly causing another wound on my turn the BT would be counter-charged and flanked by the other hellcannon and maybe something else.
By this stage even if everything goes completely against me the BT is tied up unit turn 4 at a minimum and severely wounded. At best the BT is dead.

What else could kill a hellcannon in the second turn in this list? The furies? dont make me laugh they would pop in the same turn they attacked they are only LD2

If the BT charges the infantry, i challenge with the champion, he dies horribly giving away 5CR, Infantry have 5 CR and a win by muso, next turn BT is flanked by the second block, 2nd champ challenges, BT now looses combat by 6, probably already injured on the way in now making instability test on 4's.

If the BT does manage to break either the knights or a chariot it is either is standing vulnerable to fire from the hellcannons (no minimum range) or counter charged by a hellcannon (see above for tactics)
If it pursues or over runs off the table, when it returns it cannot auto charge and is vulnerable to fire again.

After all that is said it is still a more than reasonable chance that the BT could be very well dead in my first turn (2 Hellcannon shots and 2 flickering fires). Even if it is not dead there is also a chance that it is so injured tim may not want to risk loosing a 600+ point model, Something many people appear to have forgotten.

The dogs and horse should be able to hold up the fleshhounds for a turn or two re-directing and possibly opening themselves up to counter charges from chariots or knights.

My tactics are designed so that i will be reducing units capable of defeating static CR5 to below capacity to do so, so that the infantry become the 3-4 anvil in my lines.
 

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RAWR! KROXIGOR!!
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Hang on wait. You are casting spells at the BT? It has MR3!!

Also, with Sundering on Tzeentch, even MR1 gives the unit targets an effective 5+ save against your spells.

You are right. I exaggerated at the speed at which a BT can kill a Hellcannon (I thought the BT had hatred and S7 for some reason, and that the crew of a Hellcannon where not unbreakable). He can still hide form shooting while kill it or if there is no possible way he can engage the Hellcannon and dodging counter charges (which is unlikey, give he has 40" to play around with in achieving a favourable angle of combat) he can charge any unit, destroy it, and pursue off the table.

I however think you are greatly overestimating your ability to kill the BT. Lets assume you achieve a hit with a Hellcannon. 1/2 BT is hit (you cannot cover the whole base, so it auto partial). 5/6 wounded. 2/3 not saved. That is 5/18. I won't take into account guess or scatter but I will for Misfire, 5/6. That makes for a 25/108 chance of doing something (23%).

That is about a 41% chance of doing something if you fire both. Then you randomise wounds. 13.6% chance of outright killing it. Hardly a surefire solution.

Also, the Furies can 'kill' Hellcannons. The LD2 means they can never actually fight it, but they can force it to rampage into them... and not shoot. On reflection, BOTH hellcannons will only be shooting once (maybe even never if they are deployed to far forward/roll to high and can be rampaged turn 1).
 

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So you did not read my tactics, still assuming im using single dice casting, forgetting that i have a unit of CR3 knights, a unit of knights with over 25 attacks, chariots and CR5 infantry.

I never claimed surefire solution, i said a more than reasonable chance. More than half of my rebuttal says seriously wounded but it appears you also choose to discount that.

I do not claim that this is an easy win, i do claim that you original post was over enthusiastic on the chances of tims win.

now your claiming rampage on LD9 is going to happen??? Its a chance to happen yes, definite, not by a long shot.
(And that he will use DD to protect the furies, gee he has an awful lot of luck and a seemingly endless supply of 2DD according to you)
If they do rampage so what they where only going to fire two turns anyway before joining the battle (but you never read the tactics) so now they are in combat range with my whole army backing them up.

you are entitled to your opinion but some of it is misguided and very over enthusiastic.
 

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RAWR! KROXIGOR!!
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First I'd like to say that there is nothing personal in this. I have to vote for someone and am obliged to attempt to make the list I think should wins.

So you did not read my tactics, still assuming im using single dice casting..
You did not read what I said. I said that the BT has MR3 (so is pretty much invunlerable) and that MR1 units have an effective 5+ save against Tzeentch (2 Dice give on average 7, with Sundering Banner making that 5, so the DD needs a 5+). Note also that Flesh Hounds are also MR3.

forgetting that i have a unit of CR3 knights, a unit of knights with over 25 attacks, chariots and CR5 infantry.
None of these units beat the BT, huge block of BL or Crushers.

I never claimed surefire solution, i said a more than reasonable chance.
Reasonable chance is not good enough. And 41% isn't a reasonable chance.

I do not claim that this is an easy win, i do claim that you original post was over enthusiastic on the chances of tims win.
My first post was monotone if anything.

now your claiming rampage on LD9 is going to happen???
Hellcannons get a LD test to stop a rampage? Seriously I don't know, I don't currently have my copy of WoC army book.

(And that he will use DD to protect the furies, gee he has an awful lot of luck and a seemingly endless supply of 2DD according to you)
These are Daemons. Killing 8 models is damn hard. I doubt your magic can cause 12 wounds (to get past the 5+ ward) in one phase. Especially with Sundering and the fact that no all your spells will go off.
If they do rampage so what they where only going to fire two turns anyway before joining the battle (but you never read the tactics) so now they are in combat range with my whole army backing them up.
I did read your tactics. It is their first turn shooting that can affect the game, not their combat ability. (though I guess you are right, I do often ignore tactics and play the lists in my head how I would)
 

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This is what I don't like about votewar. And me losing, but that's besides the point.
hehe ok ill stop after this.

You forgot the +1 to cast for tzeentch making it 6 to cast which from MR1 would make it a slightly higher chance of stopping a spell than a first turn kill of a BT :p
Yes hellcannons get a LD test
never ever said anywhere i was targeting the dogs (i admit i made a mistake on the BT i thought it was MR2 like WOC but i would change my casting at that point but its to late i have already said i would)

and lastly <sigh> again i did not claim the knights, chariots or infantry could kill the BT (if it was at ful health) but seeing as i have shown that i can lock the BT up in combat until turn 4

i refute the claim that there are 5 units that have no equal in my army, i would like you to do the math of the fleshhounds charging my slaanesh knights and even them charging the rage knights? I sure you would find they would loose.
Screw it even charging a chariot they would only win by 1, same for the marauders (although that battle would quickly go to the fleshounds in future rounds)

What would happen if i was actually able to charge the fleshounds after diverting them with the dogs or horse with any of my other units, i think you will find i would win and the grind would begin.

As i said im not debating any more, people will vote as they see fit.
I have taken nothing personal i just wanted to highlight some misconceptions being presented about my list. Thank you
 
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